The consequences of our neglect.

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But it's not proper English usage. Chaucer is pithy and powerful. So are Shakespeare and the King James Bible. The Baha'i writings are windy and flowery and need billowing oceans of words to say what Chaucer or the King James Bible could say in just a few.

Changing 'say' to 'sayeth' and theeing and thouing doesn't make it into King James English. It's a chore to try to wade through even a few pages of it, let alone hundreds of pages.

It's just not good writing. It's really inferior writing. A publishing agent would throw it back and require it edited and reduced to about a fiftieth of the length, imo

This was done by Shoghi, to impress people, like we do it in images (Sophia) to make them look old.

Shoghi Effendi studied English from his early childhood, for the sole aim that he could translate the writings into English in the best way possible.

I would ask as to how you both judge the quality of the translations, without knowing Arabic or Persian and as such have no clue as to how good the translations are.

To he just and honest, why not research and determine with facts if they are actually impeccable translations or do fall short. I can advise you that many academics have noted the impeccable standard of these translations.

I offer this from Bahai.org

​

Spoiler: Translation Work

Shoghi Effendi served as the principal translator of the Bahá’í Writings. He had studied English from his early childhood and, as a young man, was able to continue his studies at the American University of Beirut and subsequently at Oxford University, where he remained until the time of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s passing in 1921. Since the major administrative bodies of the Faith during the first critical decades of the Guardianship were located in English-speaking countries, Shoghi Effendi’s ability to express and interpret Bahá’í concepts in English provided an invaluable source of guidance to the Faith’s new followers in the Western World.

The Guardian’s superlative command of language and meticulous choice of words set the standard for all Bahá’í translations to follow. He rendered major works of Bahá’u’lláh into English—such as The Hidden Words (1929), The Kitáb-i-Íqan (1931) and the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf (1941)—and organized extracts from them and other essential passages into the anthologies, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh (1935) and Prayers and Meditations of Bahá’u’lláh (1938). He translated countless other prayers and passages from Bahá’u’lláh, the Báb and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and included them within his own letters. Shoghi Effendi also recreated in English an authentic account of the Faith’s early history, known as The Dawn-Breakers (1932).

Extracts.

"...He had studied English from his early childhood and, as a young man, was able to continue his studies at the American University of Beirut and subsequently at Oxford University, where he remained until the time of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s passing in 1921.."

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Another consequence of our neglect to search a topic, with justice and a sincerity, is that we repeat the hollow accusations of the past, that have been levelled at every Prophet and Messenger sent by God.

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

I've personally read that Baha'ull'ah wrote clearly, and that it's Effendi's translation that makes the language so flowery.

 

[Modesty]

https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/vx2d4z

Here's a discussion about this I found on Reddit earlier.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I've personally read that Baha'ull'ah wrote clearly, and that it's Effendi's translation that makes the language so flowery.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/vx2d4z

Here's a discussion about this I found on Reddit earlier.

The key here is, is that both Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi, under the Covernant, were given Authority of Interpretation.

No person knew the Message of the Bab or Baha'u'llah better than Abdul'baha, who apart from Baha'u'llah the Messenger, and many Baha'i Scholars, also taught Shoghi Effendi. So Shoghi Effendi as a translator, was also in the position to convey what that Message was Imparting to humanity, and studied English with the aim to give the best translations possible.

That is why the Wrirings of the Bab, Baha’u’llah are the Revelation and the Writings of Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi are authorised official interpretations of the writings.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

https://www.reddit.com/r/exbahai/comments/vx2d4z

Here's a discussion about this I found on Reddit earlier.

If one is interested in the difficult art of translations, this is a link where one can download a PDF that explains in detail the issues faced. @RJM @Aupmanyav

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

This link is to more information in HTML format

That should be enough detail on translations.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Assume you're right -- how do you know this? Do you have evidence?

Through his own biography (Autobiography of a Yogi).
"According to Philip Goldberg, Yogananda shared the following account in his book Autobiography of a Yogi. While in deep prayer in his room, he received a surprise visit from Mahavatar Babaji, the Great Guru of his lineage, who told him directly that he was the one chosen to spread Kriya Yoga to the West."

Paramahansa Yogananda - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RJM]

Through his own biography (Autobiography of a Yogi).
"According to Philip Goldberg, Yogananda shared the following account in his book Autobiography of a Yogi. While in deep prayer in his room, he received a surprise visit from Mahavatar Babaji, the Great Guru of his lineage, who told him directly that he was the one chosen to spread Kriya Yoga to the West."

Paramahansa Yogananda - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes. But how do you know he lied? What's your evidence that it did not happen that way?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I would ask as to how you both judge the quality of the translations, without knowing Arabic or Persian and as such have no clue as to how good the translations are.
To he just and honest, ..

Neither RJM nor myself know Arabic or Persian. We are solely pointing to Shoghi's translation where he used 'sayeth' for 'said' and 'drinketh' for 'drink'. Was he taught that kind of English at the American University in Beirut or later at Oxford University?
So why did he do that? Just to confuse and already confusing text of Bahaollah and trying to impress with those words as if they were from 1st Century?
It is a very cheap technique.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes. But how do you know he lied? What's your evidence it did not happen that way?

No one is immortal other than in chemical sense (molecules survive death). If he said he met an immortal person, then he was sure lying.

 

[RJM]

No one is immortal other than in chemical sense (molecules survive death). If he said he met an immortal person, then he was sure lying.

Its a good book

 

[Aupmanyav]

I know the difficulties in translation. I encounter that when I try to translate Vedic or Sanskrit verses or texts. I find inaccuracies in traanslation by people - like Prabhupada in translation of BhagawadGita.
But I do not try to put such embelishment in my translation. Many a times, I change the translation of RigVeda by Ralph Griffith to avoid such words while quoting from it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Its a good book

I do not know if it is good or bad. I do not have the desire to read books written by liars. I have many other books to read from. Secondly, I do not put any one on a higher pedestal. I am a very straight-forward person. Buddha told me in Kesmutti (Ksalama) Sutta not to believe just because:

• nor upon another's seeming ability (bhabba-rūpatāya), (He is a famous person)
• nor upon the consideration, The monk is our teacher (samaṇo no garū) (He is termed as Guru by people)

Kesamutti Sutta - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Thomas]

Maybe we need more clarification ...

I think we need to backtrack to keep things in perspective.

Our dialogue started when you said:
I would offer I see no defects in God's creation, it is given in perfect balance for us to achieve our spiritual awakening.
Personally I can only marvel at its perfection.

I said:
... only God is perfect – this creation being finite and conditional – its perfection is relative, dependent, and subject to contingency. (emphasis mine)
That is it a source of wonder and joy is not disputed, but it's also the source of unhappiness and suffering.

So I marvel, I gaze in awe, and I look on in wonder ... but I am not blind to the conditionality ... nor do I blame everything ill that befalls as as 'evil' or as 'ordained by God' – rather I see it as in the nature of our finitude.

+++

You then replied:
So a a perfect God with a creation that is not perfect. That would be an oxymoron to my way of thinking.
I see any Imperfection is only a product of our limited relativity, we are not able to see the perfection on what we perceive as imperfection.
To which I replied:
Well you're quite wrong, on theological and metaphysical grounds.

You then say:
The point is, that is the perfection of creation, it was designed that way. Imperfection is an essential aspect of this creation, it is not a flaw. It is a world of opposites, the animating forces and the lack of those animating forces.

I never said it was a flaw – that's your misunderstanding.

Abdu'l-Baha has explained the Imperfection of Creation as all of creation is in need of an Educator.
I don't need Abdu'l-Baha's explanation to justify your error.
(And reading the citation, I think you're misunderstanding what Abdu'l-Baha's saying!)

+++

You equate 'imperfection' with 'flaw' –

Creation is not perfect, if it were, it would not be subject to change, to growth or decay ... it is finite, but it is not flawed.

Its finitude is not a flaw of the Creator, it is the nature of the created.

Genesis tells us God saw His work of each day, and saw that it was 'good', and that when completed, it was 'very good' (1:31) – but that final verse, the completion of the work on the 6th day, that 'very good' (my emphasis) tells us that God sees, in creation, conditional degrees of goodness.

+++

Whatever we do, Tony, we can always do that little bit better ... not so with God.

(Bear in mind there may well be another world, in another cosmos, where in fact everyone is spiritually 'awake', because there was never a Fall – it's just not this one.)

I think you're being overly sentimental.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Creation is not perfect, if it were, it would not be subject to change, to growth or decay ... it is finite, but it is not flawed.

If there is a creation (in my belief there is no creation), then it is what it is, it goes the way it wants, and has nothing to show for existence of God.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I think we need to backtrack to keep things in perspective.

Our dialogue started when you said:
I would offer I see no defects in God's creation, it is given in perfect balance for us to achieve our spiritual awakening.
Personally I can only marvel at its perfection.

I said:
... only God is perfect – this creation being finite and conditional – its perfection is relative, dependent, and subject to contingency. (emphasis mine)
That is it a source of wonder and joy is not disputed, but it's also the source of unhappiness and suffering.

So I marvel, I gaze in awe, and I look on in wonder ... but I am not blind to the conditionality ... nor do I blame everything ill that befalls as as 'evil' or as 'ordained by God' – rather I see it as in the nature of our finitude.

+++

You then replied:
So a a perfect God with a creation that is not perfect. That would be an oxymoron to my way of thinking.
I see any Imperfection is only a product of our limited relativity, we are not able to see the perfection on what we perceive as imperfection.
To which I replied:
Well you're quite wrong, on theological and metaphysical grounds.

You then say:
The point is, that is the perfection of creation, it was designed that way. Imperfection is an essential aspect of this creation, it is not a flaw. It is a world of opposites, the animating forces and the lack of those animating forces.

I never said it was a flaw – that's your misunderstanding.

Abdu'l-Baha has explained the Imperfection of Creation as all of creation is in need of an Educator.
I don't need Abdu'l-Baha's explanation to justify your error.
(And reading the citation, I think you're misunderstanding what Abdu'l-Baha's saying!)

+++

You equate 'imperfection' with 'flaw' –

Creation is not perfect, if it were, it would not be subject to change, to growth or decay ... it is finite, but it is not flawed.

Its finitude is not a flaw of the Creator, it is the nature of the created.

Genesis tells us God saw His work of each day, and saw that it was 'good', and that when completed, it was 'very good' (1:31) – but that final verse, the completion of the work on the 6th day, that 'very good' (my emphasis) tells us that God sees, in creation, conditional degrees of goodness.

+++

Whatever we do, Tony, we can always do that little bit better ... not so with God.

(Bear in mind there may well be another world, in another cosmos, where in fact everyone is spiritually 'awake', because there was never a Fall – it's just not this one.)

I think you're being overly sentimental.

Thank you for the clarification Thomas. Most likely my poor grasp of the English language is at play here, I have very poor English comprehension. Luckily my wife says I have improved a little over the years.

I still am not able to see the issue with mixing the concept of absolutly no flaw with perfection and a flaw as an imperfection.

I am considering that just because imperfection is apparent, that does not mean it exists, it is but relative.

My thoughts of perfection are inclusive of imperfection, as without imperfection we are not able to have any concept of perfection.

The way I think about it is the same as light and darkness. All the waves of colours are contained within the pure white light and there is no darkness until we have the lack of the light.

So in my mind, that is the same as Perfection and imperfection. All the degrees of imperfection are contained within pure Perfection and total imperfection is only the lack of perfection.

It is all relative, as I am thinking that in God's Kingdom of lights, there are only the virtues and no lack of them. Thus my vision of this world, is that it is contained within God's Kingdom of Perfection.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Thank you for the clarification Thomas. Most likely my poor grasp of the English language is at play here, I have very poor English comprehension. Luckily my wife says I have improved a little over the years.

I still am not able to see the issue with mixing the concept of absolutly no flaw with perfection and a flaw as an imperfection.

I am considering that just because imperfection is apparent, that does not mean it exists, it is but relative.

My thoughts of perfection are inclusive of imperfection, as without imperfection we are not able to have any concept of perfection.

The way I think about it is the same as light and darkness. All the waves of colours are contained within the pure white light and there is no darkness until we have the lack of the light.

So in my mind, that is the same as Perfection and imperfection. All the degrees of imperfection are contained within pure Perfection and total imperfection is only the lack of perfection.

It is all relative, as I am thinking that in God's Kingdom of lights, there are only the virtues and no lack of them. Thus my vision of this world, is that it is contained within God's Kingdom of Perfection.

Regards Tony

Tony, are you talking about perfection in the infinite sense of eventual outcome for the whole universe? Because certainly although this may be true, it is not the case for individual natural entities, even for the Earth itself, which all experience decay and death as the very base pattern and universal experience of nature?

 

[RJM]

Christ overcame death. Christ overcomes death -- the bridge between perfect eternal spirit, bound only by Love in the spiritual certainty that all parts return to the One -- and the imperfect ever changing dimension of nature, subject to the laws of time and space and bound for death in every entity.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Tony, are you talking about perfection in the infinite sense of eventual outcome for the whole universe? Because certainly although this may be true, it is not the case for individual natural entities, even for the Earth itself, which all experience decay and death as the very base pattern and universal experience of nature?

I am looking at the whole. Baha'u'llah quotes Qur’án 67:3 in a few of His Mystical writings.

(85)(28)Qur’án 67:3 ˹He is the One˺ Who created seven heavens, one above the other. You will never see any imperfection in the creation of the Most Compassionate.

My meditation is on verses such as this.

"....And this, notwithstanding that even the limitations of the world of existence are praised and cherished by the wayfarer, for he seeth all things in the mirror of the verse “No defect canst thou see in the creation of the God of mercy”, and at every moment he heareth with his inner ear the tongue of the Holy Spirit uttering the words “Seest thou a single flaw?”(85) In faithlessness he beholdeth the secret of fidelity, and in deadly poison he tasteth the sweetest honey. Even vengeance is embraced in this state; nay more, the true lover welcometh the betrayal of the beloved...."

I guess I am looking beyond the relative obviousness of imperfection, into the Holy Spirit.

This is another.

"..Gazing with the eye of absolute insight, the wayfarer in this valley seeth in God’s creation neither contradiction nor incongruity, and at every moment exclaimeth, “No defect canst thou see in the creation of the God of mercy. Repeat the gaze: Seest thou a single flaw?”(28) He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest. He breaketh the cage of the body and the hold of the passions, and communeth with the denizens of the immortal realm. He scaleth the ladders of inner truth and hasteneth to the heaven of inner meanings. He rideth in the ark of “We will surely show them Our signs in the world and within themselves”, and saileth upon the sea of “until it become plain to them that it is the truth”.29 And if he meeteth with injustice he shall have patience, and if he cometh upon wrath he shall manifest love..."

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

I am looking at the whole. Baha'u'llah quotes Qur’án 67:3 in a few of His Mystical writings.

(85)(28)Qur’án 67:3 ˹He is the One˺ Who created seven heavens, one above the other. You will never see any imperfection in the creation of the Most Compassionate.

My meditation is on verses such as this.

"....And this, notwithstanding that even the limitations of the world of existence are praised and cherished by the wayfarer, for he seeth all things in the mirror of the verse “No defect canst thou see in the creation of the God of mercy”, and at every moment he heareth with his inner ear the tongue of the Holy Spirit uttering the words “Seest thou a single flaw?”(85) In faithlessness he beholdeth the secret of fidelity, and in deadly poison he tasteth the sweetest honey. Even vengeance is embraced in this state; nay more, the true lover welcometh the betrayal of the beloved...."

I guess I am looking beyond the relative obviousness of imperfection, into the Holy Spirit.

This is another.

"..Gazing with the eye of absolute insight, the wayfarer in this valley seeth in God’s creation neither contradiction nor incongruity, and at every moment exclaimeth, “No defect canst thou see in the creation of the God of mercy. Repeat the gaze: Seest thou a single flaw?”(28) He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest. He breaketh the cage of the body and the hold of the passions, and communeth with the denizens of the immortal realm. He scaleth the ladders of inner truth and hasteneth to the heaven of inner meanings. He rideth in the ark of “We will surely show them Our signs in the world and within themselves”, and saileth upon the sea of “until it become plain to them that it is the truth”.29 And if he meeteth with injustice he shall have patience, and if he cometh upon wrath he shall manifest love..."

Regards Tony

Yeah that's pretty much what I expected -- you diving into the Baha'i library to find official quotes. I'll check it out later ...