The consequences of our neglect.

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Yeah that's pretty much what I expected -- you diving into the Baha'i library to find official quotes. I'll check it out later ...

All good RJM, these discussions should never be a chore.

It is from God's Word that I personally look for meaning, but most likely too many years bathed in my own thoughts.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

If I believe that 'middle C' is the quantum of music -- that all the various scales and keys and minors derive from that root that I call 'middle C' and I think "wow I've got the music" -- then all other sounds of music will sound strange and disorganized and 'wrong' to me -- African or Arabic or Indian music?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

If I believe that 'middle C' is the quantum of music -- that all the various scales and keys and minors derive from that root that I call music -- I think "wow I've got music" then all other sounds of music will sound strange and disorganized and 'wrong' to me -- African or Arabic or Indian music?

With a good composer and conductor, maybe they can all be part of the one song. Within that instrumental composition, each can have a solo.

I love building all thoughts into a oneness, maybe a flaw of mine!

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

My thoughts of perfection are inclusive of imperfection, as without imperfection we are not able to have any concept of perfection.

Why at all there should be concept of perfection and imperfection in things which are already perfect?
Making up things?

"He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest. He breaketh the cage of the body and the hold of the passions, and communeth with the denizens of the immortal realm. He scaleth the ladders of inner truth and hasteneth to the heaven of inner meanings. He rideth in the ark of “We will surely show them Our signs in the world and within themselves”, and saileth upon the sea of “until it become plain to them that it is the truth”.29 And if he meeteth with injustice he shall have patience, and if he cometh upon wrath he shall manifest love..."

Beautiful. Incomparably funny.

 

[RJM]

With a good composer and conductor, maybe they can all be part of the one song. Within that instrumental composition, each can have a solo.

I love building all thoughts into a oneness, maybe a flaw of mine!

Regards Tony

So in a sense the idea is to replace all the different types of music with one new universal music -- one Baha'i world, one Baha'i religion, one Baha'i language, etc?

Or a person who likes blues, or Mozart or Chinese temple music must listen to all the other music too; it sounds like a cacophony disaster to me?

It's just that the whole concept doesn't seem to have been thought through to the end. When you mix everything together, you end up with a gooey grey mess and call it perfection.

Atoms are composed of parts, and all combine in a myriad different ways to become the universe of nature. Suns consume other suns, and galaxies collide. There's no way of 'upgrading' nature or humanity by trying to combine the parts into one homogeneous unit, imo

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

So in a sense the idea is to replace all the different types of music with one new universal music -- one Baha'i world, one Baha'i religion, one Baha'i language, etc?

Or a person who likes blues, or Mozart or Chinese temple music must listen to all the other music too; it sounds like a cacophony disaster to me?

It's just that the whole concept doesn't seem to have been thought through to the end. When you mix everything together, you end up with a gooey grey mess and call it perfection.

Atoms are composed of parts, and all combine in a myriad different ways to become the universe of nature. There's no way of 'upgrading' nature or humanity by trying to combine the parts into one homogeneous unit, imo

That is not the vision of the future I get from the Baha'i Wrtings RJM.

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Ok. Sorry ...

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

In a way I wish I could have a conversation with you here about your own thoughts -- rather than the Baha'i proselytizing -- although I realize it may not be the way you want to do things?

There's no need to respond and I will leave you alone from now on

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Ok. Sorry ...

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

In a way I wish I could have a conversation with you here about your own thoughts -- rather than the Baha'i proselytizing -- although I realize it may not be the way you want to do things?

There's no need to respond and I will leave you alone from now on

It's all good RJM. Basically I have come to tge realisation that it is not the way I can do things. I realised quite some time ago, that I would have no meaningful thoughts of my own without finding what God has revealed to us. Conversations about this world have now become bla, bla, bla to me. Yes I am not a fun guy, I do not go out, and I am no longer able to do small talk.

My wife loves the silence, she has my heart and my hugs.

I can talk hours on the subjects of the Spiritual Worlds of God and the Messengers, my wife and I share those times.

The way I see it, is that the Oneness of God and the Messengers would be meaningless without the Messages of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. I would even say I would not be practising any faith and I definitly would not be on Interfaith.org.

That would have been great for all of you. sorry I am what I am, which is far from what I was, so there may be hope yet.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Fair enough Tony, that's your music and it's the drummer you march to. Just the realization that it's not the only music, and others may march to the sound of other distant drums.

Good luck and best wishes. I think many of us are similar in that we don't go out much or do much small talk -- it fits me

 

[Modesty]

The way I see it, is that the Oneness of God and the Messengers would be meaningless without the Messages of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. I would even say I would not be practising any faith and I definitly would not be on Interfaith.org.

But if you looked, you may find there are interesting discussions here about religion that don't involve the Messengers at all its always good to learn from others even if we can't accept their views.

 

[Thomas]

Thank you for the clarification Thomas. Most likely my poor grasp of the English language is at play here, I have very poor English comprehension. Luckily my wife says I have improved a little over the years.

Well you're not doing too badly ... now you've said it, I understand a little better about what you're saying.

I still am not able to see the issue with mixing the concept of absolutly no flaw with perfection and a flaw as an imperfection.

Basically, the world was created as it is – but without flaw.

Try to see the world not as imperfect, but rather not possessing the perfection of its Creator.

So the created order is good, indeed very good, and perfect insofar as it goes (relatively speaking), but if God were to produce something absolutely perfect, He would replicate Himself.

I am considering that just because imperfection is apparent, that does not mean it exists, it is but relative.

Relativity is not perfection.

If you are ill, your health is less than perfect. What is the perfect age at which to die? What is the perfect height to be, or the perfect weight, the perfect skin colour or complexion?

You see? They're pointless questions.

My thoughts of perfection are inclusive of imperfection, as without imperfection we are not able to have any concept of perfection.

So following that argument, we need duality. Without duality, we cannot conceive of 'this or that'.

But God is not dual, God is One.

So in my mind, that is the same as Perfection and imperfection. All the degrees of imperfection are contained within pure Perfection and total imperfection is only the lack of perfection.

I agree. But the world is not perfect. Pure Perfection is God.

Again and again: God did not create the world to be perfect, He created it in time and space, which He knows introduces change.

It is all relative, as I am thinking that in God's Kingdom of lights, there are only the virtues and no lack of them. Thus my vision of this world, is that it is contained within God's Kingdom of Perfection.

Yes, exactly!

God isn't.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Yes, exactly!

God isn't.

A point of agreement, God is uncontained and unconstrained.

I see the only concept we have of pure perfection is the Messengers, the image we are created in, the potential within us.

Now that is a good topic.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Again and again: God did not create the world to be perfect, He created it in time and space, which He knows introduces change.

That is not my argument, the world is a reality of opposites where our relativity knows Good and Evil and thus we are capable of perfection and imperfecrion.

The argument is that it perfect to acheive that outcome. I quoted two passages from Baha'u'llah where he quotes the Quran above to RJM and posted the link below. They are the source of my thoughts.

The consequences of our neglect.

But it's not proper English usage. Chaucer is pithy and powerful. So are Shakespeare and the King James Bible. The Baha'i writings are windy and flowery and need billowing oceans of words to say what Chaucer or the King James Bible could say in just a few. Changing 'say' to 'sayeth' and theeing...

www.interfaith.org

Qur’án 67:3 ˹He is the One˺ Who created seven heavens, one above the other. You will never see any imperfection in the creation of the Most Compassionate.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is not the vision of the future I get from the Baha'i Wrtings RJM.

Vision of future and reality of future are not the same things.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I realised quite some time ago, that I would have no meaningful thoughts of my own without finding what God has revealed to us.
The way I see it, is that the Oneness of God and the Messengers would be meaningless without the Messages of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

That is a pity.
You do not see anything. You repeat what your messenger said. All other things are meaningless for you.

But if you looked, you may find there are interesting discussions here about religion that don't involve the Messengers at all its always good to learn from others even if we can't accept their views.

Meaningless for Tony and his group.

 

[Thomas]

A point of agreement, God is uncontaminated and unconstrained.

I see the only concept we have of pure perfection is the Messengers, the image we are created in, the potential within us.

Now that is a good topic.

Regards Tony

Yes it is ... although, as ever, I prefer the Biblical idea of our creation in the image of God, not in the reflected goodness in others.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Yes it is ... although, as ever, I prefer the Biblical idea of our creation in the image of God, not in the reflected goodness in others.

Looks like auto words go me there, the word was Unconstrained. All the best Thomas.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But if you looked, you may find there are interesting discussions here about religion that don't involve the Messengers at all its always good to learn from others even if we can't accept their views.

Fair enough Tony, that's your music and it's the drummer you march to. Just the realization that it's not the only music, and others may march to the sound of other distant drums.

Good luck and best wishes. I think many of us are similar in that we don't go out much or do much small talk -- it fits me

That is a pity.
You do not see anything. You repeat what your messenger said. All other things are meaningless for you.

Meaningless for Tony and his group.

I would offer it is just an immense frustration that is faced in the knowledge that God has given the remedy to humanity, the elixir that the body of humanity currently refuses to take.

So from my frame of reference, I am part of that body of humanity that wants to partake of the elixir, I want to see the healing commence.

Here are a couple of points. Every day, some where in the world, millions go into sports stadiums hyped up and drooling over thier sports fans, drunk on the mass hysterical connection to the spectacular unfolding on the field. Meanwhile millions starve and have no clean water to drink no homes to live in, are facing tyrants and war.

Remind you of anything, maybe the fall of the Roman Empire, the gladiators. Civilizations on the eve of their collapse pay their sportsmen absorbent amounts of money and worship them like God's. I watched a great documentary about the signs of the collapse of the economy, and this is one they mentioned.

The frustration is that, it is all small talk, all the talk that is not contributing to the healing, just aids in the deterioration, the body of humanity is dying, for God's grace and mercy, please take the elixir.

People can keep their faiths, they can keep their lack of faith, I really do care about that, but the elixir which is the oneness of the body of humanity, the love for all components of that body, the need to find unity between all the components of that body, to feed the body with the virtues and morals, needs to be taken.

That is why I no longer do small talk. Let's talk about the weather, what is a good brand of coffee, all the while sitting in the luxury of our home full of things while a vast proportion of humanity suffers.

What will we learn with interfaith chat, without addressing the obvious disunity and the disintegration of Nations into tyranny, war, famine and poverty, all because of the greed and the want of power of those in control.

The Bab and Baha'u'llah offered the elixir for this, as promissed in all the Holy Books of the past, and that is all I can keep offering.

Love and peace to all. Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

Here are a couple of points. Every day, some where in the world, millions go into sports stadiums hyped up and drooling over thier sports fans, drunk on the mass hysterical connection to the spectacular unfolding on the field. Meanwhile millions starve and have no clean water to drink no homes to live in, are facing tyrants and war.

I don't know, I do not think we can spend every waking moment mourning for the oppressed. Art, music, theater, and yes even sports are part of the fabric of human existence. They go on despite suffering. And I guarantee you plenty of those people getting hyped at a sports game (or a concert or whatever) are also suffering deeply. Maybe not because a lack of water or because of homelessness, but that's not the only way people suffer. And yet they're brought joy by the experience of going to see their favourite team play, by feeling connected to other sports fans. I think comparing this to the gladiator games is a bit much, wherein the entertainment was literally watching people die.

That is why I no longer do small talk. Let's talk about the weather, what is a good brand of coffee, all the while sitting in the luxury of our home full of things while a vast proportion of humanity suffers.

And yet coffee and the weather are part of the human experience. Why shouldn't we talk about them? Again, people have always suffered. There have been times of immense suffering in history, much worse than now. But what would have happened if we had just given up and stopped enjoying the little joys of life because of that suffering?

I would offer it is just an immense frustration that is faced in the knowledge that God has given the remedy to humanity, the elixir that the body of humanity currently refuses to take.

I understand that is your point of view. But I think any medicine that results in the entire world (or most of it) becoming one religion is a poison rather than a medicine. That is, personally, one reason I left Christianity. Because I realized I didn't want the whole world to be Catholic. Imagine Japan without Shinto or India without Hinduism or Sikhi or Jainism? We'd lose so much beauty and culture and history imo. Anyways, my point is, what you consider the medicine for humanity is not what others consider the medicine for humanity. Other people here think their religion is 100% correct but also show interest in other religions. It can't be interfaith if you're only interested in discussing one faith.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I would offer it is just an immense frustration that is faced in the knowledge that God has given the remedy to humanity, the elixir that the body of humanity currently refuses to take.
Every day, some where in the world, millions go into sports stadiums hyped up and drooling over thier sports fans, drunk on the mass hysterical connection to the spectacular unfolding on the field. Meanwhile millions starve and have no clean water to drink no homes to live in, are facing tyrants and war.

Remind you ..

There would not have been any frustration, had there been evidence.
Are you talking of Bahais and their temples? As for the rest, we are (in your opinion) what your Allah made us like, why complain?