on Faith

As this is the Christian Board, and talking of faith, I make no apology for repeating this:

"Even so, it should never be forgotten that Christianity entered human history not as a new creed or sapiential path or system of religious observances, but as apocalypse: the sudden unveiling of a mystery hidden in God before the foundation of the world in a historical event without any possible precedent or any conceivable sequel; an overturning of all the orders and hierarchies of the age, here on earth and in the archon-thronged heavens above; the overthrow of all the angelic and demonic powers and principalities by a slave legally crucified at the behest of all the religious and political authorities of his time, but raised up by God as the one sole Lord over all the cosmos; the abolition of the partition of Law between peoples; the proclamation of imminent arrival of the Kingdom and of the new age of creation; an urgent call to all persons to come out from the shelters of social, cultural, and political association into a condition of perilous and unprotected exposure, dwelling nowhere but in the singularity of this event—for the days are short." (David Bentley Hart, Tradition and Apocalypse, p. 135)
As a Baha'i I can respond to this saying that I embrace Jesus the Christ with all my heart and my Soul, I am a Christian that does not practice the rituals set by the church. The sacrament of the last supper is etched on my Soul and one can partake of that supper every moment of every day in its spiritual context. Confession is my personal account given to God each day. Baptisim with water and fire is a chosen path in life, living the life of faith and not where faith is an outworn apparel, a hollow name.

The passage quoted above Thomas, is not exclusive to a faith named Christianity. The end of ages apocalypse is indeed here.

Regards Tony
 
As a Baha'i I can respond to this saying that I embrace Jesus the Christ with all my heart and my Soul
No. You haven't even read the Gospels. The whole point is that everything you think you know about Jesus is through cut-and-paste phrases through the filter of your teachers.
I see all our prayers to God are in reality prayers given through the Messengers. I see any answer we get is God speaking through the Messengers, as God does not speak directly to any other human.
You need to read the Psalms.
David prayed to God directly, all the time:

Lord, my heart is not haughty,
Nor my eyes lofty.
Neither do I concern myself with great matters,
Nor with things too profound for me.
Surely I have calmed and quieted my soul,
Like a weaned child with his mother;
Like a weaned child is my soul within me.
O Israel, hope in the Lord
From this time forth and forever.
Psalm 131


Have you read the Psalms @Tony Bristow-Stagg?

You haven't even read the Bible. You do not know the Christian scriptures. You parrot your teachers without doing the work yourself, and then you come onto internet forums and post derivative passages out-of-context without having enough respect to actually read the documents in context.

You haven't the least inkling of the true nature of Christ, that you like to preach to others everyday.

Read it again @Tony Bristow-Stagg
As this is the Christian Board, and talking of faith, I make no apology for repeating this:

"Even so, it should never be forgotten that Christianity entered human history not as a new creed or sapiential path or system of religious observances, but as apocalypse: the sudden unveiling of a mystery hidden in God before the foundation of the world in a historical event without any possible precedent or any conceivable sequel; an overturning of all the orders and hierarchies of the age, here on earth and in the archon-thronged heavens above; the overthrow of all the angelic and demonic powers and principalities by a slave legally crucified at the behest of all the religious and political authorities of his time, but raised up by God as the one sole Lord over all the cosmos; the abolition of the partition of Law between peoples; the proclamation of imminent arrival of the Kingdom and of the new age of creation; an urgent call to all persons to come out from the shelters of social, cultural, and political association into a condition of perilous and unprotected exposure, dwelling nowhere but in the singularity of this event—for the days are short." (David Bentley Hart, Tradition and Apocalypse, p. 135)
 
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No. You haven't even read the Gospels. The whole point is that everything you think you know about Jesus is through cut-and-paste phrases through the filter of your teachers.

You need to read the Psalms.
David prayed to God directly, all the time:

Lord, my heart is not haughty,
Nor my eyes lofty.
Neither do I concern myself with great matters,
Nor with things too profound for me.
Surely I have calmed and quieted my soul,
Like a weaned child with his mother;
Like a weaned child is my soul within me.
O Israel, hope in the Lord
From this time forth and forever.
Psalm 131


Have you read the Psalms @Tony Bristow-Stagg?

You haven't even read the Bible. You do not know the Christian scriptures. You parrot your teachers without doing the work yourself, and then you come onto internet forums and post derivative passages out-of-context without having enough respect to actually read the documents in context.

You haven't the least inkling of the true nature of Christ, that you like to preach to others everyday.

Read it again @Tony Bristow-Stagg

Matthew 7:1 came to mind Rodger. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

Maybe we could approach all subjects in the light of 1 Peter 2:1-12

"...So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. ...".

Regards Tony
 
@Tony Bristow-Stagg

So you admit you're wrong in saying prayers to God are in reality prayers given through the messengers -- which 'in reality' means Baha'u'llah

Baha'i celebrate Baha'u'llah's death as the day of his 'ascension' although his bones like those of any other mortal man are buried in a grave -- towards which Baha'i face when they pray

Didn't Jesus teach the Lord's prayer?
 
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Daniel prayed directly to God:

Daniel always prayed to God three times every day. Three times every day, he bowed down on his knees to pray and praise God. Even though Daniel heard about the new law, he still went to his house to pray. He went up to the upper room of his house and opened the windows that faced toward Jerusalem. Then Daniel bowed down on his knees and prayed just as he always had done.

Then the supervisors and satraps went as a group and found Daniel praying and asking God for help. So they went to the king and talked to him about the law he had made. They said, “King Darius, you signed a law that says, for the next 30 days anyone who prays to any god or man except you, the king, would be thrown into the lions’ den. You did sign that law, didn’t you?”

The king answered, “Yes, I signed that law, and the laws of the Medes and Persians cannot be cancelled or changed.”

Then they said to the king, “That man Daniel is not paying any attention to you. He is one of the captives from Judah, and he is not paying attention to the law you signed. Daniel still prays to his God three times every day.”


Daniel 6 Read Full Chapter
 
@Tony Bristow-Stagg

So you admit you're wrong in saying prayers to God are in reality prayers given through the messengers -- which 'in reality' means Baha'u'llah

Baha'i celebrate Baha'u'llah's death as the day of his 'ascension' although his bones like those of any other mortal man are buried in a grave -- towards which Baha'i face when they pray

Didn't Jesus teach the Lord's prayer?
I would offer that is not really a question RJM, I can only offer my frame of reference is inclusive of Jesus the Christ.

The world needs ro embrace the Lords Prayer.

Regards Tony
 
Daniel prayed directly to God:

Daniel always prayed to God three times every day. Three times every day, he bowed down on his knees to pray and praise God. Even though Daniel heard about the new law, he still went to his house to pray. He went up to the upper room of his house and opened the windows that faced toward Jerusalem. Then Daniel bowed down on his knees and prayed just as he always had done.

Then the supervisors and satraps went as a group and found Daniel praying and asking God for help. So they went to the king and talked to him about the law he had made. They said, “King Darius, you signed a law that says, for the next 30 days anyone who prays to any god or man except you, the king, would be thrown into the lions’ den. You did sign that law, didn’t you?”

The king answered, “Yes, I signed that law, and the laws of the Medes and Persians cannot be cancelled or changed.”

Then they said to the king, “That man Daniel is not paying any attention to you. He is one of the captives from Judah, and he is not paying attention to the law you signed. Daniel still prays to his God three times every day.”


Daniel 6 Read Full Chapter
Daniel was a great Prophet. His prophecies have come to fruition.

Regards Tony
 
The Glory of God makes it all One. It is 100% Genuine.

Regards Tony
Just because you believe the self-nominated 'Glory of God' -- Baha'u'llah -- when he SAYS he is the returned Christ, higher than Jesus, in the station of the Father -- doesn't make it genuine.

I accept that Baha'u'llah really did believe he was Christ -- but the difficulty is that it is all backed up upon the life of Jesus the true Christ.

It's a pity Baha'u'llah could not have just been himself, and allowed his message to speak for itself. But it's entirely derived from the life of Jesus. Like all the other self-declared new messiahs.

Why not then just go with Jesus, who already said and did it all 2000 years ago? Why keep trying to rehash and update Jesus? What did Jesus get wrong, that needs fixing?

Whatever ... circular from now on ...
 
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I've no wish to dent anyone's sincerely held faith.
I believe that is a sin, and ask God for forgiveness
 
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Just because you believe the self-nominated 'Glory of God' -- Baha'u'llah -- when he SAYS he is the returned Christ, higher than Jesus, in the station of the Father -- doesn't make it genuine.

I accept that Baha'u'llah really did believe he was Christ -- but the difficulty is that it is all backed up upon the life of Jesus the true Christ.

It's a pity Baha'u'llah could not have just been himself, and allowed his message to speak for itself. But it's entirely derived from the life of Jesus. Like all the other self-declared new messiahs.

Why not then just go with Jesus, who already said and did it all 2000 years ago? Why keep trying to rehash and update Jesus? What did Jesus get wrong, that needs fixing?

Whatever ... circular from now on ...
In the end RJM, it is the interpretation of the Bible that is the key to all our Faiths, God is one and it promises a Day will come, a day such as this.

Zechariah 14:9 "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

Jesus said in John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

Who is the Father, the redeemer, it is the "Lord of Hosts".

Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

It does not have to be circular, as the focal point is One God and the narrow gate on the path to knowing and loving God.

The Love of God is found in virtues and selfless service. That is the Quandary that Faith will always present to us RJM. By their fruit you will know them and the fruit producing trees are many.

Regards Tony
 
Zechariah 14:9 "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

Jesus said in John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

Who is the Father, the redeemer, it is the "Lord of Hosts".

Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
The word LORD is actually YAHWEH in the original -- but the Jews don't spell it out or say it.
I've asked already: what version of the Bible do you have at home?
Why do you need to post these passages? I've read them before.
Do you think they refer to Baha'u'llah?

The point that Baha'i omit, when slinging out these Bible quotes on this and other forums, is that they can equally apply to any other self-declared new Christ figure. The same passages are used by the followers of all the other new Christ claimants -- from Moonies to Amadiyya and countless other groups -- but which all take-off on Jesus the true Christ, imo

the focal point is One God and the narrow gate on the path to knowing and loving God.

The Love of God is found in virtues and selfless service. That is the Quandary that Faith will always present to us RJM. By their fruit you will know them and the fruit producing trees are many.
Yes, Jesus said it a long time ago.
Do you think that people reading the Christian forum are unfamiliar with Jesus?
But thanks for the sermon @Tony Bristow-Stagg

My quandary is that even if you did listen to anything that might burst your bubble, it would only make me responsible for damaging your sincere faith -- and that would be very wrong. It's none of my business what others believe. It's not my business to undermine or attack another's faith.

God is found in quietness not soapboxing on the internet, imo

Let it be ...
 
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I see the mistakes are made by shutting down scriptures to man’s interpretation. (“The distortion is of our own making Thomas.”)
Yes – and I would suggest this is clearly evident when you sought to argue the Trinity with your mother (post #24):
1: “... yet my reading of the New Testament found way more verses that indicated Jesus was not God.
Your 'reading' might well cover a multitude of sins, LOL. So you found verses indicating that Jesus was God, and verses indicating that Jesus was not God, and you counted them up, took one from the other, and there's the answer? A decision about a Revealed text based purely on a material determination? That’s really neither a reasoned nor rational insightful, let alone spiritual, reading.

2: “I ended up with 100’s of passages ...
To support your assertion, so you discount everything else.
3: “So armed with this undisputable evidence ... ”
The evidence is far from indisputable though, is it? Or it is, when you've discounted the rest. if you think it is, I would point you to about 2,000 years of informed discourse. The process you describe evidences flawed reasoning from the outset.

Had you allowed for the possibility that Jesus Christ is, indeed, the Incarnate God; that His is a Hypostatic Union of the Divine and human, then the contradictions can be resolved and one can understand why the Church believed, from very early on, that Christ overcame the world and sin and death, and that through Divine Love opened the way to everlasting life.

"God became man that man might come to God" the aphorism goes, from St Irenaeus of Lyon in the 2nd century on, famously via Athanasius of Alexandria. This was no theologian's flight of fancy, but founded on Scripture, in St John, in St St Paul: “Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ” (Galatians 4:7) and St Peter (2 Peter 1:4).

I would think you saw that Baha’u’llah was offering just as Jesus had before Him, that it is Faith that enables true life and the lack of that Faith is death, even if one thinks they are alive, this also reflected in the Quran.
I see clearly there is more to Christ's offer than Baha'u'llah allows – partakers of the Divine Nature, not merely the exemplary 'attributes' of human nature evidenced in the lives of prophets, saints and sages.

That is the Quandary Thomas, if we reject a true Messenger, all the proof we use for that rejection, negates all the Messengers, as they are as One.
It seems to me your fail to see Jesus is more than a Messenger.

And your assertion that by rejecting one you reject all is an error of (metaphysical) attribution. At the level of the One, all is One; at the level of Forms, of the world, they are distinct and diverse. Adhering to one is neither a rejection nor a negation, it's an embrace. One must respond "with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind" (cf Luke 10:27).
 
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"God became man that man might come to God" the aphorism goes, from St Irenaeus of Lyon in the 2nd century on, famously via Athanasius of Alexandria. This was no theologian's flight of fancy, but founded on Scripture, in St John, in St St Paul: “Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ” (Galatians 4:7) and St Peter (2 Peter 1:4).
..but then we can ask the question, "Why is it, that G-d did not become man when Moses was alive,
or Abraham, or Adam?"

It seems to me, that it is a way of thinking i.e. equating a man with God
 
As a Baha'i I can respond to this saying that I embrace Jesus the Christ with all my heart and my Soul ...
If that were true, then you would embrace His word, and have no need of another. You embrace Baha'u'llah all the more.

I am a Christian that does not practice the rituals set by the church.
Then you separate the bride from her groom.

The sacrament of the last supper is etched on my Soul and one can partake of that supper every moment of every day in its spiritual context.
I would hazard that, in denying the divinity of Christ, the Sacrament is etched in a metaphorical rather than a mystical manner – the mystical rather depends on Christ being God.

The passage quoted above Thomas, is not exclusive to a faith named Christianity. The end of ages apocalypse is indeed here.
As ever, that's not what the author means. Heaven forbid David Bentley Hart ever turning up here – he would excoriate you for suggesting such a short-sighted interpretatyion that founders on its own contradiction.

Suffice to say – in gentler terms – you've misconstrued his use of the term 'apocalypse'. The word derives from the Greek apokalyptein, 'to uncover, disclose, reveal'. The end-of-the-world 'cataclysmic' idea is from "Apokalypsis" (the last book of the New Testament).

In Hart, the term retains its proper meaning of a 'revelation' of divine origin that 'irrupts' – a breaking-into the world – without warning or foreknowledge, thus nothing like the apocalyptic millenarianism of some Christian and (I'm led to believe) Baha'ism.

It also refers to its aspect of an event that by virtue of its transcendent appearance is discontinuous with the past, and thus the element of surprise or even shock and upheaval for those 'traditionalists' with their eyes fixed on the past.

One such 'apocalypse' was the formulation of the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, another the Christological declarations of Chalcedon (425AD). It may well be that Vatican II might emerge, in years to come, as another apocalypse in the life of the living Church.
 
..but then we can ask the question, "Why is it, that G-d did not become man when Moses was alive,
or Abraham, or Adam?"
We can – but then for God to become man would engage with a providential moment, as the Incarnation was known before the creation of the world. It's a bit like asking why didn't God make a God-man in the first place ... all I can say is perhaps, in another cosmos, He has, but this one is fallen, and thus requires salvation?

Does Islam discuss why Gabriel did not visit the fallen Adam with the noble Quran?
 
It seems to me your fail to see Jesus is more than a Messenger.
That is your reading of what was offered Thomas.

I would see Jesus as "Christ", exactly as Peter saw and stated Jesus was and what the Church was to be built upon. That is Jesus as Christ, was a Manifestation of God, "The Self of God", but not God in Essence. Jesus in Essence in Annointed of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is created of and emanated from God. No one has seen the Father not even the Son, the Son Jesua declared the Father unto us.

Regards Tony
 
LOL. So you found verses indicating that Jesus was God, and verses indicating that Jesus was not God, and you counted them up, took one from the other, and there's the answer?
You approached that reply in the light of your LOL Thomas.

Gathering those passages was not an answer, it is evidence that the Trinity as a doctrine does not work., and that we need to look at the topic with new eyes and be open to hearing new ideas.

Arguing about the Essence of God is fruitless, as no one, not even the Son Jesus knows anything about the Essence of God.

To argue about it means we would both be wrong in our ignorance.

Regards Tony
 
"God became man that man might come to God"
I see that would lack the required humility that is given to Jesus Christ in service to the Almighty God. That would be saying we want to be more than Christ.

I see we are born in the Image of "Christ", or the image of the Holy Spirit, that is our given potential. Our potential lays within that boundary, from the human condition, to be born again into the Holy Spirit, which is embracing all the morals, virtues and laws given of Christ, which as a servant, has no approach to the Essence of God.

Regards Tony
 
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