on Faith

Why look for negation Thomas. Why not look for what is actually being offered?
I am looking for what is offered ... and I see the errors.

I see all our prayers to God are in reality prayers given through the Messengers. I see any answer we get is God speaking through the Messengers, as God does not speak directly to any other human.
Then your messengers have misled you ...

John 5:37 "You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form".

This is how your messengers deceive you ... read the text prayerfully:
"But I (Jesus) have a greater testimony than that of John (the Baptist): for the works which the Father hath given me (Jesus) to perfect; the works themselves, which I (Jesus) do, give testimony of me (Jesus), that the Father hath sent me (Jesus). And the Father himself who hath sent me (Jesus), hath given testimony of me (Jesus): neither have you heard his (the Father) voice at any time, nor seen his (the Father's) shape. And you have not his (the Father's) word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent (Jesus), him (Jesus) you believe not." (John 5:36-38)
See how your messengers have distorted the text to speak of themselves ... when read in the proper context, it is clearly Jesus rebuking the Jews who accused him of sacrilege and blasphemy for healing on the Sabbath.
 
I see it is complimentary with all past scriptures.
I know you do. So do I, in fact, but I rather think your doctrine as it is commonly expressed confuses where the sameness and where the distinctions lie, and that will inescapably lead to conflict with your neighbours.

When we say all Truth is One, we are speaking of universals, or in more overtly religious language, of transcendentals, and this is where the crucial distinction lies.

All religions are one, in that they address the same fundamental questions in the same fundamental way – so in a universal sense they are the same, across all times and all peoples, for example with regard to the idea of suffering, or sacrifice, or prayer.

Where religions differ, however, is in the particulars, in the form of the religion – its mode of manifestation, its language, its dogmas and doctrines, its rites and rituals and its means and methods of the attainment and realisation of the one end they all share in common – a final Rest and Reward.

They are different precisely because the universal cannot manifest itself in toto in the world, because it very being as universal means it is prior to and so ‘transcends’ the domain of forms, to which the world belongs.

Divine Revelation is an irruption of the Timeless in the temporal, the Absolute in the relative, the Infinite in the finite. It is the Truth in the face of contingency, the Real in the face of appearances. For this reason there is that which we call esoteric, which points to the former, and that we call exoteric, which speaks of the latter.

What no individual, particular religion can be, is the universal religion as such, unifying and uniting all other religions into and under itself, because it stands alongside every other religion on the same plane, as it were, and is no greater nor lesser than its neighbour.

To claim so is to assert, in the exoteric domain, something which exists only in a superior realm. When applied at the level of the exoteric, in necessarily means if not the dismantling of a religion (which the Bah'i would require), and the editing and redaction of its sacred doctrine – under the excuse of correcting errors, corruptions, distortions or unfortunate interpretations –

That is overstepping the bounds – that is a claim to supremacy in the exoteric domain and leads to imperialism – an error all religions make when too much emphasis is placed on the superficial externals, is their essential truths are occluded – we made that mistake, and we learnt the lesson – the Baha’i has failed to see it, and if it pursues that course, is walking the same, terrible path.
 
Without faith says the bible is impossible to like God. We need but to use we don't know how.
 
Do you embrace the fact that my path is valid, and I have no need of your input?
It's all about God's Counsels Thomas. My input is naught, apart from wondering how this passage will unfold in the light of the responses received.

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded." Baha'u'llah

I wonder how the Councels given by God, by Baha'u'llah will eventually be heeded.

My reflections see that many of those Councels are also found in other Holy Books, but there are many applicable to this age. Will people unconscious of the source, implement them anyway?

Regards Tony
 
I am looking for what is offered ... and I see the errors.


Then your messengers have misled you ...



This is how your messengers deceive you ... read the text prayerfully:
"But I (Jesus) have a greater testimony than that of John (the Baptist): for the works which the Father hath given me (Jesus) to perfect; the works themselves, which I (Jesus) do, give testimony of me (Jesus), that the Father hath sent me (Jesus). And the Father himself who hath sent me (Jesus), hath given testimony of me (Jesus): neither have you heard his (the Father) voice at any time, nor seen his (the Father's) shape. And you have not his (the Father's) word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent (Jesus), him (Jesus) you believe not." (John 5:36-38)
See how your messengers have distorted the text to speak of themselves ... when read in the proper context, it is clearly Jesus rebuking the Jews who accused him of sacrilege and blasphemy for healing on the Sabbath.
The distortion is of our own making Thomas. The Church was to be built on what Peter said about Jesus, when Jesus asked who he was, Peter said you are the Christ. (Annointed One)

Now we can read the passage in that light.

"But I (Christ) have a greater testimony than that of John (the Baptist): for the works which the Father hath given me (Christ) to perfect; the works themselves, which I (Christ) do, give testimony of me (Christ), that the Father hath sent me (Annointed Jesus). And the Father himself who hath sent me (Christ), hath given testimony of me (Annointed Jesus): neither have you heard his (the Father) voice at any time, nor seen his (the Father's) shape. And you have not his (the Father's) word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent (Christ), him (Annointed Jesus) you believe not." (John 5:36-38)

All the Messengers are "Annointed" by God of the same Holy Spirit, each of them receiving the Revelation in a different manner, but all pre-existing, all born of the Holy Spirit, they are not "Men" like us.

Regards Tony
 
but there are many applicable to this age...
OK ... but I'm not really interested in the temporal thing ... they come, they go ... they belong to a time and a place.

It's the Eternal Word that draws me.
"Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass."
(Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33)
 
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The distortion is of our own making Thomas.
Yes it is.

All the Messengers are "Annointed" by God of the same Holy Spirit, each of them receiving the Revelation in a different manner, but all pre-existing, all born of the Holy Spirit, they are not "Men" like us.
Well the Tanakh, the New Testament and the Quran says otherwise, and I'll stick with them, to be honest.
 
All the Messengers are "Annointed" by God of the same Holy Spirit, each of them receiving the Revelation in a different manner, but all pre-existing, all born of the Holy Spirit, they are not "Men" like us.
This only exists in your own religion @Tony Bristow-Stagg although you state it as a fact. The arguments you make for Baha'u'llah as the new 'annointed' Christ the Father are fully open to question. You believe it because Baha'u'llah said it's so. That doesn't make it so.

It is not accepted in Christianity -- and the fact is that Muhammad (pbuh), Abraham, Moses, Noah and so on did not present themselves as Christ 'born of the Holy Spirit, they are not "Men" like us'. It is anathema to Islam and I'm confident to Judaism too?

It's a Baha'i dogma, that's all. Your own belief.

God speaks to every sincere individual soul in an individual way, regardless of time, place and religion -- or no religion.

The belief that God speaks only through the 'messengers' and that prayer to God can be directed only through the 'messengers' is not true to the vast majority.

You can believe it if you want to, but there's no reason everyone else in the world should accept Baha'u'llah as the new Christ the Father and treat his writings -- and those of his nepotistic family -- as the inerrant world of God by all the rest of the people in the world for the next 800 years.
 
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OK ... but I'm not really interested in the temporal thing ... they come, they go ... they belong to a time and a place.

It's the Eternal Word that draws me.
"Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass."
(Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33)
Yes it is.


Well the Tanakh, the New Testament and the Quran says otherwise, and I'll stick with them, to be honest.
I see that is an incorrect interpretation of the Tanakh, the New Testament and the Quran.

The Eternal Word requires us to be born again in each age. The Holy Books offer if we do not, we have not embraced the Eternal Word as it is inclusive of the new laws and ordinances required for the age we live, it contains the guidance is needed to rectify years of humanity as a whole departing from that "Eternal Word". (There are very few individuals that this is not applicable to)

The world is as it is today because it has not embraced the Counsels given by God, that is Christianity, Islam and many of us Baha'i included. Baha'u'llah gave us the "Tablet of Ahmad", a powerful prayer that contains advice we all need to consider if we think we are saved because of Faith. I put in bold the consideration offered from an extract near the end of that prayer.

".....Rely upon God, thy God and the Lord of thy fathers. For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.

Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turneth away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity....." Baha'u'llah

Out of Love, I offer this, and for no other reason.

Regards Tony
 
This only exists in your own religion @Tony Bristow-Stagg although you state it as a fact.
This is a new concept that you asked about. You have asked what ""New Principles" has Baha'u'llah brought. This is one of the may things, It's a new way of seeing past Scriptures.

John 5:37 offers the exact same thing, but now Baha'u'llah has given us a fuller picture as to what that means.

"And the Father Himself, who hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape"

God is an unknowable Essence. All we do know is what the Messengers have demonstrated to us by their person and their lives, and what Word they have offered. God does not speak to us, God speaks to the Messengers and we are inspired by and hear them, only if we choose to be born again.

Regards Tony
 
God does not speak to us,
I think the Spirit speaks to us in many ways -- to every individual seeking soul -- and not often in words
God speaks to the Messengers
God often spoke through prophets, and yes, prophets like Jeremiah and Isaiah can certainly be called messengers -- however at no time did any of them claim to be more than just men, or to be the incarnate avatar of God -- the unique inerrant word of God for the next 1000 years for all humanity -- although Muhammad (pbuh) considered himself (I think) to be the last prophet, and so the Quran is regarded by Muslims as final and inerrant for all time?
 
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Lots of self-declared prophets and messengers:


"Jeremiah Johnson, a 33-year-old self-described prophet, was one of the few evangelical Christians who took Donald J. Trump’s political future seriously back in 2015.

This track record created a loyal audience of hundreds of thousands of people who follow him on social media and hang on his predictions about such topics as the coronavirus pandemic, the makeup of the Supreme Court, and the possibility of spiritual revival in America. And they took comfort ahead of the presidential election last fall when Mr. Johnson shared a prophetic dream of Mr. Trump stumbling while running the Boston Marathon, until two frail older women emerged from the crowd to help him over the finish line.

So when Joseph R. Biden Jr. was certified as the winner of the election, Mr. Johnson had to admit he had let his followers down.
“I was wrong, I am deeply sorry, and I ask for your forgiveness,” he wrote in a detailed letter he posted online. “I would like to repent for inaccurately prophesying that Donald Trump would win a second term as the President of the United States.”

The desire to divine the future is a venerable one, fueling faith in figures from ancient Greek oracles to modern astrologists. Christianity in particular is a religion whose foundational text is filled with prophecies proven true by the end of the book. Whether the gift of prophecy continues into the present day has long been the subject of intense theological debate. But in recent years, self-described prophets have proliferated across the country, accelerating in stature over the course of the Trump era. They are stars within what is now one of the fastest-growing corners of Christianity: a loose but fervent movement led by hundreds of people who believe they can channel supernatural powers — and have special spiritual insights into world events.

Many are independent evangelists who do not lead churches or other institutions. They operate primarily online and through appearances at conferences or as guest speakers in churches, making money through book sales, donations and speaking fees. And they are part of the rising appeal of conspiracy theories in Christian settings, echoed by the popularity of QAnon among many evangelicals and a resistance to mainstream sources of information.

The prophetic imagination roams far beyond national politics. It follows the Super Bowl and the weather; it analyzes events in pop culture, like Kanye West’s recent turn toward evangelism, and global events, including a particular fascination with Israel. Many prophets caution followers against trusting what they read in the news, but in its place they offer a kind of alternative news cycle, refracting and interpreting events in the real world through a supernatural lens."




"Charismatic Pentecostal churches are built around prophets who are viewed as possessing special gifts to mediate between humanity and God. The prophet’s word is final. Questioning and doubting this word is viewed as the devil’s plot – through human agents – to undermine a man of God’s authority. It’s common practice for charismatic Pentecostal prophets to threaten doubters with eternal condemnation, ailments or poverty ...

Prophets, in the eyes of their followers, are messiahs saving sections of society. Testimonies of people who are healed or freed from evil spirits are publicised via social media and television channels. This draws in more followers and builds further trust in the prophets."

These 'messenger' figures all have their own loyal followers ...
 
Where does it say that in the 3 scriptures?
In the Bahai Writings, in a Tablet to a Zoroastrian, Baha'u'llah offered this.

".....Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been reborn in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live...." — Tabernacle of Unity

The Quran also has verses about 2 deaths and two lives. The two deaths most likely refers to physical and spiritual death. The two lives most likely refer to our physical and spiritual births.

Regards Tony
 
In the Bahai Writings, in a Tablet to a Zoroastrian, Baha'u'llah offered this.
Oh dear, please, Tony ... you're reading literally what is meant figuratively.

Do you read this to say the New Testament asserts there are zombies:
"... let the dead bury their dead." (Matthew 8:22, Luke 9:60)
 
Oh dear, please, Tony ... you're reading literally what is meant figuratively.

Do you read this to say the New Testament asserts there are zombies:
"... let the dead bury their dead." (Matthew 8:22, Luke 9:60)
The same figuratively that is found in all the Holy Books Thomas, and I must say, your immature answer was not expected.

Regards Tony
 
As this is the Christian Board, and talking of faith, I make no apology for repeating this:

"Even so, it should never be forgotten that Christianity entered human history not as a new creed or sapiential path or system of religious observances, but as apocalypse: the sudden unveiling of a mystery hidden in God before the foundation of the world in a historical event without any possible precedent or any conceivable sequel; an overturning of all the orders and hierarchies of the age, here on earth and in the archon-thronged heavens above; the overthrow of all the angelic and demonic powers and principalities by a slave legally crucified at the behest of all the religious and political authorities of his time, but raised up by God as the one sole Lord over all the cosmos; the abolition of the partition of Law between peoples; the proclamation of imminent arrival of the Kingdom and of the new age of creation; an urgent call to all persons to come out from the shelters of social, cultural, and political association into a condition of perilous and unprotected exposure, dwelling nowhere but in the singularity of this event—for the days are short." (David Bentley Hart, Tradition and Apocalypse, p. 135)
 
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Many of your mistakes arise from an overtly literal reading.


Oh, I'm sorry if you were offended, perhaps I should have been gentler in response.
I see the mistakes are made by shutting down scriptures to man's interpretation. In some aspects, this is a necessary path to take, such as laws and ordinances. In matters of on the nature of God and His Messengers, and the nature of humanities connection with the spiritual aspect of life, then this should always be open to discussion.

I would think you saw that Baha'u'llah was offering just as Jesus had before Him, that it is Faith that enables true life and the lack of that Faith is death, even if one thinks they are alive, this also reflected in the Quran.

Faith has always been a choice, this from the "Tablet of Ahmad"

"....Thus doth the Nightingale utter His call unto you from this prison. He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord.

O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God?.......Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another...."

That is the Quandary Thomas, if we reject a true Messenger, all the proof we use for that rejection, negates all the Messengers, as they are as One.

Regards Tony
 
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