on Faith

[RJM]

The Words of God are timeless

That doesn't entitle them to be manipulated out-of-context

Jesus was speaking to the 12 apostles at the last supper shortly before his arrest to reassure them he would not leave them 'orphans' but would send the Holy Spirit to comfort them.

He wasn't talking to them about Baha'u'llah.

Trying to discuss the New Testament with you is a farcical exercise because you haven't read it in 40 years

For that reason I will no longer waste my time trying

... we can discuss these issues without ill intent.

My purpose is to make people unfamiliar with the New Testament aware of how unctuously you abuse it.

You talk about Jesus all the time. Do you own a Bible @Tony Bristow-Stagg?

How about the Quran, that you also like to talk about -- do you own a copy?

 

[Thomas]

To the Nightingales of Paradise, I will indeed, tell it to the birds and in that, put my trust.

Nice poem ...

My thoughts were more along the line of the hymn in the Vedas – Rig Veda (i: 64.20):

Two birds,
associated together and companions,
take refuge in the same tree;

one of them eats the sweet fig;
the other abstaining from food,
merely looks on.

+++

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Nice poem ...

My thoughts were more along the line of the hymn in the Vedas – Rig Veda (i: 64.20):

Two birds,
associated together and companions,
take refuge in the same tree;

one of them eats the sweet fig;
the other abstaining from food,
merely looks on.

+++

From tomorrow morning for 19 days, I will be the little birdy looking on.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

He wasn't talking to them about Baha'u'llah.

Great thing is RJM, is that I can consider if you talk as Christ, or if Baha'u'llah did.

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. – John 16:12-13.

That verse implies logically that the Spirit of Truth has ears that hear and a mouth that will speak, logically it is a other Christ "Annointed One".

"Announce thou unto the priests: Lo! He Who is the Ruler is come. Step out from behind the veil in the name of thy Lord, He Who layeth low the necks of all men. Proclaim then unto all mankind the glad-tidings of this mighty, this glorious Revelation. Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. Say, this is the One Who hath glorified the Son and hath exalted His Cause. – Baha’u’llah, “The Most Holy Tablet” (also known as the “Tablet to the Christians”), Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 12.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

I see the Christ's have more than two natures.

Really?

As one is human, and the other divine, I'm at a loss to see what the third one can be.

Humanity have the two nature's the physical nature as inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature as inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is our immortal rational soul.

Ah – that's actually contrary to Biblical belief – so I'm not sure where you're getting your data from on that one.

The idea of a distinct body-spirit duality ignores Genesis 2:7, but it's not uncommon – outside of the Bible and notable in various historical 'gnosticisms' within the Abrahamic world.

I see that the Manifestations of God have these two natures, but possess a third one that is unique to Their station. This third nature is the capacity to receive divine revelation and to infallibly transmit it to mankind, the nature of Christ, the Holy Spirit.

So you're posing a third nature between the human and the divine – a kind of demiurgic nature, not quite divine but more than human?

Again, OK if that's Baha'i belief, but it's contrary to the Tanakh, the New Testament and the Quran.

 

[Thomas]

Every day I post, I do hope that people can view history and come ro terms with the stance they make about the exclusive nature of their faith. Thomas will say Christianity is not exclusive, but history has shown otherwise in practice.

based on your assertion that all will be required to see and believe as you do – the Baha'i faith is exclusive, whereas I have shown that since Vatican II the Catholic Church acknowledges the authenticity and validity of other paths.

 

[Thomas]

The obvious reply is why did the Kings, the Rulers, the religious leaders and humanity as a whole not accept the Most Great Peace, One God One Faith?

As @wil and I have said – You said it's a done deal ... it ain't ... now you're trying to wriggle out.

 

[Thomas]

That verse implies logically that the Spirit of Truth has ears that hear and a mouth that will speak, logically it is a other Christ "Annointed One".

D'you think God doesn't 'hear' our prayers ...

 

[RJM]

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. – John 16:12-13.

Spirit speaks in many ways -- as you are quite aware

Great thing is RJM, is that I can consider if you talk as Christ, or if Baha'u'llah did.

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Well, you have been made aware now of the context of Jesus's words -- as you would quickly grasp from actually reading John's Gospel for yourself -- and so if you were ignorant before, from now on it's intentional misdirection ...

 

[Thomas]

Hey, @RJM – I was directed to this text, and I thought of those like us ...

"Jesus answered them: Do you now believe? Behold, the hour cometh, and it is now come, that you shall be scattered every man to his own, and shall leave me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world." (John 16:31-33).

I think we can see who is scattered 'every man to his own', and who remains in peace, in Him.

I was reading something from the Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart, and in his translation of John, he has this:
"In the world (κόσμον – kosmos) you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the kosmos (κόσμον)."

The same Greek term is used in both cases, and generally both translated as 'world', but as Jesus is Lord of Heaven and Earth, Christos Pantokrator, it seems fitting that a more inclusive term be used, whilst our distress emanates from the material world as such.

+++

"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty (κύριος παντοκράτωρ – Kyrios Pantocrator)."(2 Corinthians 6:16-18)[/I]

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Again, OK if that's Baha'i belief, but it's contrary to the Tanakh, the New Testament and the Quran.

I see it is complimentary with all past scriptures.

The human condition which is the body and the human Spirit needs to be born again into the Holy Spirit. That logically is reflecting 3 natures. The Animal, the Human and the Divine.

The virgin birth of Jesus shows how the Messengers are Annointed. They are pre-existing, already the Divine, already chosen by God to give a Message, they do not need to be born again.

Every human has a rational soul/spirit which we can use to become more than the animal condition, that human spirit needs to be connected to the divine Holy Spirit to commence that process. I see scripture 100% supports this.

So people have asked what is new, there is a new understanding, which will also changes greatly our understanding of heaven and hell.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

based on your assertion that all will be required to see and believe as you do – the Baha'i faith is exclusive, whereas I have shown that since Vatican II the Catholic Church acknowledges the authenticity and validity of other paths.

It is all about seeing the path given by God Thomas. If we genuinely see the authenticity and validity of other paths, we genuinely see we are on a path from the same source.

Otherwise it is not really seeing the authenticity and validity of other paths, it will.be a fragile bond, easily broken.

When we embrace that each path is as valid as ours, that they all lead to the narrow gate, then that is a strong bond, one where we will reconcile years of division.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

As @wil and I have said – You said it's a done deal ... it ain't ... now you're trying to wriggle out.

From the time the seed was planted in the first prophecy ever given on the kingdom come, it was a done deal Thomas.

The day the Bab opened the Gate on May 23rd 1844 (1260AH), it was already established, a done deal.

How long it takes, is all up to our choices.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

B

D'you think God doesn't 'hear' our prayers ...

Why look for negation Thomas. Why not look for what is actually being offered?

I see God speaks to humanity via the Messengers, who are the embodiment of the Holy Spirit. We communicate to God via the Holy Spirit, God speaks to us through the Messengers.

I see all our prayers to God are in reality prayers given through the Messengers. I see any answer we get is God speaking through the Messengers, as God does not speak directly to any other human.

How the Holy Spirit interacts with humanity is the mystery that is life.

John 5:37 "You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form".

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Great thing is RJM, is that I can consider if you talk as Christ, or if Baha'u'llah did.

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. – John 16:12-13.

That verse implies logically that the Spirit of Truth has ears that hear and a mouth that will speak, logically it is a other Christ "Annointed One".

"Announce thou unto the priests: Lo! He Who is the Ruler is come. Step out from behind the veil in the name of thy Lord, He Who layeth low the necks of all men. Proclaim then unto all mankind the glad-tidings of this mighty, this glorious Revelation. Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. Say, this is the One Who hath glorified the Son and hath exalted His Cause. – Baha’u’llah, “The Most Holy Tablet” (also known as the “Tablet to the Christians”), Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 12.

Regards Tony

Spirit speaks in many ways -- as you are quite aware

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Well, you have been made aware now of the context of Jesus's words -- as you would quickly grasp from actually reading John's Gospel for yourself -- and so if you were ignorant before, from now on it's intentional misdirection ...

I can quote you in reply.

"Makes you think, doesn't it?

Well, you have been made aware now of the context of Jesus's words."

That is the Quandary God gives us when God sends the Messengers. Many choose to mock the Messengers, too afraid to break the chains, all the while thinking they are vindicated in their Faith. That is not a personal comment directed to any specific person, it is an observation of the rejection of all past Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

I see it is complimentary with all past scriptures.

Which you have read?

That is the Quandary God gives us when God sends the Messengers. Many choose to mock the Messengers, too afraid to break the chains, all the while thinking they are vindicated in their Faith. That is not a personal comment directed to any specific person, it is an observation of the rejection of all past Messengers.

The actual quandary is that outside of Iran and a few tolerant forums like this one, nobody has ever heard of it or gives a blip about Baha'i fantasy.

In spite of their heavy internet proselytizing, nobody in real life cares about it or knows about their laboured scriptural manipulation and cult guru ethos, imo ...

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Which you have read?

The actual quandary is that outside of Iran and a few tolerant forums like this one, nobody has ever heard of it or gives a blip about Baha'i fantasy.

In spite of their heavy internet proselytizing, nobody in real life cares about it or knows about their laboured scriptural manipulation and cult guru ethos, imo ...

Paul said something many hundreds of years ago that is applicable to all of us, the quandary is, who was Paul talking about!

2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Where does sound doctrine come from, well for me only from the Messengers and any appointed disciples.

So was Paul warning about a future where many men have set doctrine that are not sound, and then gather many people to support them?

It is a valid thought to consider.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Paul said something many hundreds of years ago that is applicable to all of us, the quandary is, who was Paul talking about!

2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Where does sound doctrine come from, well for me only from the Messengers and any appointed disciples.

So was Paul warning about a future where many men have set doctrine that are not sound, and then gather many people to support them?

It is a valid thought to consider.

" For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths"

I believe Paul is warning against Gnostic teachings and so on, as in 1 Timothy he warns against teachers requiring circumcision and kosher observance for Christians.

Therefore -- no -- I don't think he is talking about Baha'u'llah 2000 years in the future.

At this point I think we should leave it off. It's very difficult trying to discuss the NT with someone who hasn't really read it.

I wish you well and believe God rewards your sincere faith @Tony Bristow-Stagg as 'he' rewards others -- any time, any place, any religion

Regards
Roger

 

[Thomas]

I see it is complimentary with all past scriptures.

Well, I'm afraid you are mistaken. I'll explain in another post.

The human condition which is the body and the human Spirit needs to be born again into the Holy Spirit. That logically is reflecting 3 natures. The Animal, the Human and the Divine.

No, 'human nature' encompasses the entire being, body and soul – that's what human nature is – a single entity, a rational being.

The virgin birth of Jesus shows how the Messengers are Annointed.

Well as the majority of your messengers don't claim a virgin birth, that's clearly wrong.

 

[Thomas]

If we genuinely see the authenticity and validity of other paths, we genuinely see we are on a path from the same source.

Yes, that's how I see it, but that's clearly not how you see it though – you insist every path must conform to yours.

Otherwise it is not really seeing the authenticity and validity of other paths, it will.be a fragile bond, easily broken.

Exactly, you fail to see that other paths as authentic, you see them as failed, and needing Baha'i correction.

When we embrace that each path is as valid as ours ... we will reconcile years of division.

Do you embrace the fact that my path is valid, and I have no need of your input?