No false prophet will be established in Israel

moralorel said:
Revelations 20
4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The first resurrection is a spiritual one. Those mentioned in Ezekiel 37 are part of the second resurrection, a physical one. That is why the second death has power over them. They can still die again.
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God Almighty knows best the details of what is going to happen in this world, and the hereafter.
I do not agree with basing such knowledge solely on Book of Revelation, as it is interpreted by
various creeds in all kinds of ways.
The most important thing to believe, is that the righteous will be rewarded by what they deserve,
and the wicked will be punished by what they deserve.

We have been given a conscience and intelligence for a reason. I find that most partisan groups
are confounded by their dogma, and quite often becomes a burden rather than a blessing.

War is ordained by G-d in self-defence for those who have been wronged, but "picking a side" on
the basis of creed alone is much like defending a person on the basis of being family rather than
of justice.
 
I think Old Testament references (or not) concerning resurrection is a Jewish discussion that has advocates on both sides? Seeking OT support for Book of Revelations eschatology is another factor altogether?
 
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muhammad_isa said:
God Almighty knows best the details of what is going to happen in this world, and the hereafter.
I do not agree with basing such knowledge solely on Book of Revelation, as it is interpreted by
various creeds in all kinds of ways.
The most important thing to believe, is that the righteous will be rewarded by what they deserve,
and the wicked will be punished by what they deserve.

We have been given a conscience and intelligence for a reason. I find that most partisan groups
are confounded by their dogma, and quite often becomes a burden rather than a blessing.

War is ordained by G-d in self-defence for those who have been wronged, but "picking a side" on
the basis of creed alone is much like defending a person on the basis of being family rather than
of justice.
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I have already quoted more verses from other books than Revelations.

My viewpoints don't come from dogma. I started reading the Bible as a child and read it like any story book. So my conclusions are not influenced by dogma.

I'm not picking a side.
 
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moralorel said:
I have already quoted more verses from other books than Revelations.

My viewpoints don't come from dogma. I started reading the Bible as a child and read it like any story book. So my conclusions are not influenced by dogma.

I'm not picking a side.
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I wasn't referring to you .. just a general observation, or my opinion on the topic. :)
 
OupaPiet said:
As soon as the Jews tested him with Deut 15- 22, He just replied that he is only a warner.
The Jews determined that Muhammad was a false prophet, and they made his life difficult to the extend that he fled to Medina.
If the Jews had their way, they would have killed Muhammad on Mosaic law.
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I disagree.
1. The prophets of the Jews were not supposed to predict the future. This is the role of the Greek prophets. They were warmers, visionaries, and people conveying God's advice in the particular situation.
2. Not the Jews, but the polytheists chased him out from Mecca. The Jews in the Medina received him well, but most of them didn't believe that he is a prophet.
3. The Jews didn't apply the Mosaic penalty law since there was no Sanhedrin to judge. Rather, according to hadith, Muhammad (p.b.u.h) encouraged them to apply it (of course not in killing him). Muhammad criticized them but lived in peace with the Jews for long time, until some of them collaborated with his enemies, only a few years before his death.
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Verse 9 states Land of Israel, so that has been made clear for us and chapter 13 does refer to the "house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord."

The house of Israel would most likely be the people who embrace God and this does indicate it is a long term prophecy as it points to a long awaited "Day of the Lord".

In offering that, I also see Jesus brought a "Day of the Lord". Jesus was also a True Prophet that is established in the land of Israel.

Likewise Muhammad brought a "Day of the Lord", was also a True Prophet that is established in the land of Israel.

Regards Tony
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As my home is not myself, the land of Israel is not the people of Israel (a.s.).
Muhammad (p.b.u.h) was not a prophet of Israel. He understood himself as a prophet in the line of Ishmael (a.s). As we know, he didn't live in the land of the people of Israel, either.
Nevertheless, the Quran confirms the prophets of Israel. The Quran only mentions one prophet who may be from the line of Ishmael, and it is not certain that he's been after Ishmael.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
As my home is not myself, the land of Israel is not the people of Israel (a.s.).
Muhammad (p.b.u.h) was not a prophet of Israel. He understood himself as a prophet in the line of Ishmael (a.s). As we know, he didn't live in the land of the people of Israel, either.
Nevertheless, the Quran confirms the prophets of Israel. The Quran only mentions one prophet who may be from the line of Ishmael, and it is not certain that he's been after Ishmael.
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Interestingly both the Bab and Baha'u'llah also came from the East to the Holy Land, from the heart of Islam. It was the exile of Baha’u’llah by the Muslims that ultimatly resulted in Baha’u’llah being imprisoned in the Holy Land, which cemented the foundations of the Baha'i Faith in Akka and on Mount Carmel.

The Bab, Baha’u’llah and Muhammad were all male line descendants of Abraham. Baha’u’llah has female-line descent from King David. Muhammad and the Báb descend from Ishmael in the male line. Baha’u’llah descended from a son of Keturah in the male line via the Sassanian kings.

Regards Tony
 
Aupmanyav said:
Muhammad migrated to Medina in 622. Battle of Badr took place in 624. It took just 2 years from being invited to being the boss.
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He only participated in, what, 90+ battles? And he only attacked Jews who didn't accept him as a prophet. Yep, lived in peace with the Jews.
 
View it however you want, but the truth is still the truth no matter how badly anyone wants it to go away.

Although I am mistaken. He only actively took part in 28. The rest were on his orders and performed by his followers. So he was a pretty peaceful guy. Just 28 battles, no big deal.

All the Jews had to do was align themselves politically with Muhammad (Constitution of Medina) and recognize him as a prophet. No biggie.
The Quran has this to say of the Jews who refused to acknowledge the Muslim prophets: "Indeed, those who disbelieve from the People of the Book and the polytheists will be in the Fire of Hell, to stay there forever. They are the worst of all beings." (Quran 98:6)

The Battle of Khaybar is still remembered today to commemorate the killing of Jews and the rejoicing of the eventual return of Muhammad's army to finish the job.

"Khaybar Khaybar ya yahud! It just rolls off the tongue nowadays. Peace with the Jews? Now that is fake news
 
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moralorel said:
View it however you want, but the truth is still the truth no matter how badly anyone wants it to go away
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A fabricated truth born out of deceptive history attributed to Muhammad by the enemies of Islam.

Best to bow put of fake news and look for the actual truth, look for what is gIood and you will find the true Message of Muhammad.

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
A fabricated truth born out of deceptive history attributed to Muhammad by the enemies of Islam.

Best to bow put of fake news and look for the actual truth, look for what is gIood and you will find the true Message of Muhammad.

Regards Tony
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Is @moralorel not basing his comments on the Quran and Hadith?

It's said the victor writes the history, after all?
 
RJM said:
Is @moralorel not basing his comments on the Quran and Hadith?

It's said the victor writes the history, after all?
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It is indeed a complicated task to sort out the history of a war based Islam, that was built by both the enemies and misguided beleivers of Islam.

The quran and hadiths based on the quran envoke peace, allow for defence and have guidelines that should not be crossed.

There are many Islamic sites that will tell how the Quran teaches of a lasting and just peace, that protects the innocent.

Regards Tony
 
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moralorel said:
He only participated in, what, 90+ battles? And he only attacked Jews who didn't accept him as a prophet. Yep, lived in peace with the Jews.
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He made peace with Jews by marrying the women of defeated Jews, even one whose father and husband were killed that very day.
 
Aupmanyav said:
He made peace with Jews by marrying the women of defeated Jews, even one whose father and husband were killed that very day.
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Your source?
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Interestingly both the Bab and Baha'u'llah also came from the East to the Holy Land, from the heart of Islam. It was the exile of Baha’u’llah by the Muslims that ultimatly resulted in Baha’u’llah being imprisoned in the Holy Land, which cemented the foundations of the Baha'i Faith in Akka and on Mount Carmel.

The Bab, Baha’u’llah and Muhammad were all male line descendants of Abraham. Baha’u’llah has female-line descent from King David. Muhammad and the Báb descend from Ishmael in the male line. Baha’u’llah descended from a son of Keturah in the male line via the Sassanian kings.

Regards Tony
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Is it possible to know the lineage at a distance of 2500 years? I know my lineage up to the 3rd generation of my mother and partially to the 7th of my father. They are Somali(3rd generation) Pakistani(2nd), German(male up to the 5th, mixed untill the 7th) and Polish(mixed 4th). No Abraham, no mention in any books.
 
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talib-al-kalim said:
Your source?

Is it possible to know the lineage at a distance of 2500 years? I know my lineage up to the 3rd generation of my mother and partially to the 7th of my father. They are Somali(3rd generation) Pakistani(2nd), German(male up to the 5th, mixed untill the 7th) and Polish(mixed 4th). No Abraham, no mention in any books.
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Islam had a tradition of the Green Turban, it could be worn by those who descended from Muhammad. The Bab wore such a turban. It is more than likely that families did know and understand their lineage, even if only verbally recorded. (Native Australian Aboriginals have such a verbal knowledge of lineage)

I have seen some very detailed lineages from the Islam history, it appears they are still available, so my thoughts is that linage was important in earlier times and was recorded. Consider in the West this also happened, at least in England, the Lord's and their dynasties.

Regards Tony
 
Imagine you ... now imagine you with your parents standing behind you ... their parents behind them, their parents behind them ... keep going ... after just a few hundred years, there are more people than the total who ever lived. So clearly, family lines were crossed ...

Which means, if you go back far enough, everyone is related to everyone else.

And fabricating lineages is as old as the hills ... and so what? Does being a distant relative of Mohammed (pbuh), Moses, or whoever, confer some special grace or quality?

Tribalism. If we want a new age of love, we'll have to dump that baggage, because that's the language of entitlement, which is a passport to all manner of wrongs and ills.
 
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