I believe in good!

[otherbrother]

Yes, When “bad” outside, we can, and often DO, go deep inside to a convergent zone not clearly knowable that we may call “God.” The naturally convergent, interconnected, nature of that deep zone functions as a base of Wholeness which then can be applied to the brokenness and deficit/lack of the “bad” situation. Joy or happiness would be a feeling associated with resolution of the problems of brokenness or deficit/lack. Peace would be the feeling of operating consistently from the deep base of Wholeness. Should that be the case, then “bad” doesn’t seem as bad, since we have this sense that the wholeness will prevail, and the badness is less real than it appears to be at first glance. “God” is with us. And if we come to the conclusion that all things flow out of this base, out of Deep and Whole, then we are reassured that what we come to call “good” will prevail. But at some point we realize that the come and go “good” we experience on the surface is also less real than the wholeness and peace of the Deep.
The duality of good and bad kind of converges into something that is more real than either. From a struggling and suffering point of view that we have on the physical surface, this certainly would seem like a sustainable goodness (“Heaven?”). But if we learn to go deep, the good heaven is not a thing that will COME— it has already ARRIVED, now here. To the degree that we do this consistently, we bring heaven to earth. We recreate Creation into a more spiritual form. We integrate not only our individual in and out, but ALL in and out. We have done God’s, Deep’s, work.

Quantum mechanics (workers) doing quantum mechanics (work) bring more quantum coherence to classical objects.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. go deep inside to a convergent zone not clearly knowable that we may call “God.”
We integrate not only our individual in and out, but ALL in and out. We have done God’s, ..

I can do that even without invoking any God or Goddess.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Quantum mechanics (workers) doing quantum mechanics (work) bring more quantum coherence to classical objects.

And quantum decoherence, wave function collapse, quantum dissipation, quantum error correction, gravitational decoherence, spontaneous quantum collapse (GRW theory), objective collapse theories, quantum entanglement, quantum superposition, quantum zeno effect, quantum interference. Tough for us lay people.

 

[wil]

And quantum decoherence, wave function collapse, quantum dissipation, quantum error correction, gravitational decoherence, spontaneous quantum collapse (GRW theory), objective collapse theories, quantum entanglement, quantum superposition, quantum zeno effect, quantum interference. Tough for us lay people.

Shiva?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Shiva?

Shiva is simple. A family person enjoying his drink prepared by his spouse, Parvati, in Himalayan snows, seeing his two sons frolicking around.

 

[wil]

And quantum decoherence, wave function collapse, quantum dissipation, quantum error correction, gravitational decoherence, spontaneous quantum collapse (GRW theory), objective collapse theories, quantum entanglement, quantum superposition, quantum zeno effect, quantum interference. Tough for us lay people.

Does that not describe Shiva

 

[Aupmanyav]

Does that not describe Shiva

If that does not describe Shiva, I do not know what will?

 

[wil]

If that does not describe Shiva, I do not know what will?

So then that is good eh? Shiva as I understand it is a required element for life on eartth...therefor....good....your list...all worthy and required.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You can see the mounts of deities, bull for Shiva, lion for Parvati, peacock for Kartikeya (Murugan). Ganesha's mouse also should be somewhere around. Snake and Crescent for Shiva's ornament.

 

[otherbrother]

And quantum decoherence, wave function collapse, quantum dissipation, quantum error correction, gravitational decoherence, spontaneous quantum collapse (GRW theory), objective collapse theories, quantum entanglement, quantum superposition, quantum zeno effect, quantum interference. Tough for us lay people.

The old traditional “flesh” and “spirit?” Flesh/matter(classical objects) tends towards wave function collapse? Spirit tends towards greater quantum coherence, wavelike characteristics. Akin to the Biblical reference to people being clothed in light, lit up?
I like your be your own guru theme. Suggests that the ability to get flesh and spirit to integrate may be an inherent skill we can activate. Others may help point the way, but we have to activate/use that integrative skill. Others can’t do it for us. Some would call the skill “faith.” I’m okay with that, as long as it is not confused with cognitive “belief.”

 

[wil]

Without decomposition, without rotting of the existing we would be buried in feces...

Ya gotta break eggs to make an omelet, cut down trees to build a log cabin...

You can choose to morn what is gone or revel in what is, plant more seeds...

 

[otherbrother]

Without decomposition, without rotting of the existing we would be buried in feces...

Ya gotta break eggs to make an omelet, cut down trees to build a log cabin...

You can choose to morn what is gone or revel in what is, plant more seeds...

I believe the Dialectical can be “played” in the “key” of synthesis. So ready to raise the Phoenix from the ashes. Always ready to make lemonade from lemons

 

[wil]

There is no try....only do.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The old traditional “flesh” and “spirit?” Flesh/matter(classical objects) tends towards wave function collapse? Spirit tends towards greater quantum coherence, wavelike characteristics. Akin to the Biblical reference to people being clothed in light, lit up?
I like your be your own guru theme. Suggests that the ability to get flesh and spirit to integrate may be an inherent skill we can activate. Others may help point the way, but we have to activate/use that integrative skill. Others can’t do it for us. Some would call the skill “faith.” I’m okay with that, as long as it is not confused with cognitive “belief.”

If you go by faith without need for evidence, then there is nothing to learn, you learn nothing. You can't be your own guru.
Lit-up people exist only in scriptures.

 

[wil]

This is a prime example....this is a sea change from the past. It is tremendous, we (the non catholic) thought John Paul was unbelievable. This new pope is bringing about a revolution in interfaith acceptance from "the church"!

 

[Aupmanyav]

God? What God? I am a non-believer.
Francis is incorrect here. There are hundreds of Gods and Goddesses for Hindu believers.
All this is fake sweet talk, aimed only at proselytization. 'See, I am so considerate. Bible has made me so.'

 

[Thomas]

The old traditional “flesh” and “spirit?” Flesh/matter(classical objects) tends towards wave function collapse? Spirit tends towards greater quantum coherence, wavelike characteristics. Akin to the Biblical reference to people being clothed in light, lit up?

Are you sure you understand the old traditional 'flesh' (Gk: sarx) and 'spirit' (Gk: pneuma), and have you factored in 'body (Gk: soma?

From a Buddhist perspective, I would suggest your dependence on Quantum Physics top explain something that isn't Quantum Physics is an example of:
"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress."
(Sabbasava Sutta: All the Fermentations, I, 5)

I offer this, freely accepting that my own theological investigations fall under the same rubric.

I like your be your own guru theme.

Here you would have a hard job in an Abrahamic arena, and typically a hard one in the Hindu/Buddhist sense ... I'm not sure @Aupmanyav is 'run-of-the-mill' with regard to his own religion, and his expression of theological concepts, of course I could be wrong, as forums are notoriously difficult methods of communication – so mea culpa if I misread there.

Suggests that the ability to get flesh and spirit to integrate may be an inherent skill we can activate. Others may help point the way, but we have to activate/use that integrative skill. Others can’t do it for us. Some would call the skill “faith.” I’m okay with that, as long as it is not confused with cognitive “belief.”

OK, but that's the preparation for a spiritual engagement, it's not the engagement.

Once the engagement has begun, then the need of a guru is a given in nigh-on every traditional spiritual practice.

The term means 'mentor, guide, expert, or master' (I'm told). I rather prefer the Greek Orthodox geronda or Russian Orthodox staretz, both of which simply mean 'elder', but imply the need for someone with some experience to guide the novice and, hopefully, read the signs of their spiritual passage, with its ups and downs. The western term, 'spiritual director' is rather forensic and not to my taste.

+++

An analogy: I once heard someone talking about the trapeze. The classic and pure trapeze act is the flyer and catcher. The flyer does all the tricks, the catcher ... catches ... but it is the catcher who watches the timing, and it's the catcher who calls when to let go ... the worst mistake a flyer can make is try to catch the catcher. The flyer just has to trust in the catcher.

The geronda is a bit like the catcher ... their job is to watch and monitor (as a trainer does an athlete). You need an external observer because 'the last to see it is you' and because there's no-one so easy to fool as ourselves.

Lastly, of course, human nature is open to the higher orders, but cannot simply up sticks and walk in. Nothing one can do can cause that, all one can do is make oneself ready and truth, in hope and faith, that it will happen. And oftentimes, it happens when it's least expected.

As the Buddhist says: Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.

+++

 

[Thomas]

Hey, @otherbrother –

have you looked at the Buddhist concepts of jariki and tariki
"A traditional distinction is made in scholarship on Japanese Buddhism between two means for attaining enlightenment: jiriki 自力, or "self power," and tariki 他力, or "other power."

Dōgen's Sōtō Zen is the paradigmatic example of a jiriki school: according to Dōgen, one attains enlightenment through strenuous zazen and rigorous ascetic practices.

Shinran's Jōdo Shin Buddhism is the paradigmatic example of a tariki school: according to Shinran, human beings are incapable of self-salvation, but by chanting the nembutsu they can invoke the compassionate power of Amida to save them.

But the jiriki-tariki distinction is arguably a false one, with no place within Buddhism's nondualistic framework. If the basic Buddhist intuition toward nondualism is correct, then jiriki and tariki cannot be opposed at all, but must rather be two sides of the same coin. In fact, both Dōgen and Shinran are fully in agreement on abandoning the ego (ātman), and on abandoning the artificial self-other distinction that accompanies the ātman.

Dōgen had deep faith in the path of the Buddhist patriarchs, and in the power of the sangha; he taught that both were necessary means for attaining enlightenment. And Shinran firmly believed in incorporating the nembutsu in every facet of one's life, a feat for which supreme self-cultivation is required. Thus Dōgen and Shinran both preach tariki and jiriki; moreover, this is to be expected, for unless jiriki and tariki are one, their approaches to Buddhism would be dualistic. Dōgen and Shinran should be taken as model cases for understanding the unity of jiriki and tariki in all of Japanese Buddhism."
Proceedings of the XXII World Congress of Philosophy
Steve Bein, Buddhist Philosophy, Volume 6, 2008, Pages 7-13

+++

Same in Christianity. Christ calls for all to repent – to pick up their cross – that is jiriki.
Enlightenment occurs when the Holy Spirit enters the soul and one cries Abba! – that is tariki.

+++

 

[otherbrother]

This is a prime example....this is a sea change from the past. It is tremendous, we (the non catholic) thought John Paul was unbelievable. This new pope is bringing about a revolution in interfaith acceptance from "the church"!

Glad to hear of the sea change towards greater inclusion and likely step towards a worldview of interdependence. Sorry for crossing the line with my recently posted thread. I can see how you and others came to that decision, and I accept your verdict, guilty as charged. But a mitigating circumstance is my yearning to make a world where there is both more spiritual (truly) understanding to assist in human growth and action. Political is merely how we work together with our various beliefs. When something stunts our growth, it pains me because I love the world of human beings. I guess the crossover from beliefs to collective action must be addressed elsewhere. I’m such a pattern thinker that I often cross lines as I explore the larger patterns that don’t stop at the borders of our usual categories. I’ll be more careful in the future. Thanks for the feedback and responsible action. I too want this forum to keep on rolling along. Glad I didn’t get kicked off whole forum (I DID previously get banned from a Christian forum, sounded too New Agey for their purposes!).

 

[otherbrother]

then jiriki and tariki cannot be opposed at all, but must rather be two sides of the same coin. In fact, both Dōgen and Shinran are fully in agreement on abandoning the ego (ātman), and on abandoning the artificial self-other distinction that accompanies the ātman.

Dōgen had deep faith in the path of the Buddhist patriarchs, and in the power of the sangha; he taught that both were necessary means for attaining enlightenment.

Really liked this. Thanks