Did Jesus come to save all the people of the world?

[TheLightWithin]

if that were true he would take all the worship offered to him . history tells a different story

History tells a story of earthly matters. Salvation seen in light of earthly events would be something like the view Judaism takes of the hoped for messiah, if I understand correctly.

Afterlife salvation, which is what is often meant in the context of Christian theology at least and I think Islamic theology - well history tells no story about afterlife salvation which is factually verifiable. We literally cannot confirm anything about the afterlife.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Christian truth so upsets the ones who do not understand the basics of Christianity.

Rudeness and belligerence upsets everybody.
What do you think the purpose of this forum is?
What is your purpose for joining the forum?

 

[TheLightWithin]

I heard that the Pope said this.

If the current pope said "Pray for all despair for none" - good for him, I hope he did. I am not sure but I believe the saying may be quite old and used in Orthodox circles, but it's just something I've run into and I don't know who the originator was.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Is universal salvation in the bible? Im curious if it can be backed up by scripture. Thank you

Some say it can be. If I understand correctly, multiple theories of the afterlife including universalism, conditional immortality/annihilationism, the existence of purgatory then salvation, punishment then annihilation, and the old favorite eternal conscious torment, all have some scriptural support. There is no fully articulated clarified theory of the afterlife in the bible AFAIK and no consistent solid picture throughout.

There's a guy I used to talk to on Facebook who went from being a fairly progressive Christian to being a more conservative Christian over the last several years, while remaining a Universalist. I can ask him how he has come to this conclusion. He told me once but I don't remember if there were proof texts.

Here are some sources that talk about it.

Universalism and the Bible – Keith DeRose

campuspress.yale.edu

Towards a biblical view of universalism

‘There are two Biblical ways of looking at salvation. One says that only Christian believers will be saved: the other says that all men will be saved. Since the latter is more loving, it must be true, because God is love.’ This argument (though the words are mine) is regularly used by university...

www.thegospelcoalition.org

Christian Universalism in Scripture

The universal restoration of the entire cosmos is a persistent theme throughout all of scripture. Not a few texts here and there, but a sustained witness.

www.mercyonall.org

 

[Faithfulservant]

..and I choose to believe what my heart tells me is true..
..and not some literal quoting of a passage in the Bible or Qur'an.

G-d alone knows who will be going to hell .. we reap what we sow.
Hypocrisy does not lead to success .. only sincerity.

You said:
"If you dont receive what Jesus did on the cross you are held to the standard of the law."

Well, if you go by that, then all Jews are going to hell. I don't personally believe that.

I want to remind you that your opinion came after i asked thomas a simple question. I didnt ask you for your opinion. I simply stated what the bible says. I didnt write it i just believe it. If you have issue with what the bible says you will have to take it up with the author.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Some say it can be. If I understand correctly, multiple theories of the afterlife including universalism, conditional immortality/annihilationism, the existence of purgatory then salvation, punishment then annihilation, and the old favorite eternal conscious torment, all have some scriptural support. There is no fully articulated clarified theory of the afterlife in the bible AFAIK and no consistent solid picture throughout.

There's a guy I used to talk to on Facebook who went from being a fairly progressive Christian to being a more conservative Christian over the last several years, while remaining a Universalist. I can ask him how he has come to this conclusion. He told me once but I don't remember if there were proof texts.

Here are some sources that talk about it.

Universalism and the Bible – Keith DeRose

campuspress.yale.edu

Towards a biblical view of universalism

‘There are two Biblical ways of looking at salvation. One says that only Christian believers will be saved: the other says that all men will be saved. Since the latter is more loving, it must be true, because God is love.’ This argument (though the words are mine) is regularly used by university...

www.thegospelcoalition.org

Christian Universalism in Scripture

The universal restoration of the entire cosmos is a persistent theme throughout all of scripture. Not a few texts here and there, but a sustained witness.

www.mercyonall.org

Jesus told His disciples I go to prepare a place for so that you may be where i am. Thats enough for me. I dont think theres a lot of descriptions of heaven simply because why spoil the surprise. We know theres a paradise we know that Jesus went to prison to preach to those who perished before His incarnation. We know of His story of Lazarus in Abrahams bosom. We have a detailed description of the new Jerusalem.

As far as scripture. It was written to the believer for the believer. I glanced at your sources and the problem i see is that the scripture references are being accepted for everyone without a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. If everyones going to be saved why the commandment to go out into the world to share the gospel and make disciples of men. Why does Jesus warn of hell. Why John 3:16? The bible does not contradict. If you read something and it doesnt fit somewhere else.. you dont go make a new doctrine... You reason it out by taking it into context. I have my own sourse if you are interested.

Is universalism / universal salvation biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Is universalism / universal salvation biblical? If Jesus died for the sins of the entire world, does that mean that everyone in the world is saved?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[locust]

Jesus told His disciples I go to prepare a place for so that you may be where i am. Thats enough for me. I dont think theres a lot of descriptions of heaven simply because why spoil the surprise. We know theres a paradise we know that Jesus went to prison to preach to those who perished before His incarnation. We know of His story of Lazarus in Abrahams bosom. We have a detailed description of the new Jerusalem.

As far as scripture. It was written to the believer for the believer. I glanced at your sources and the problem i see is that the scripture references are being accepted for everyone without a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. If everyones going to be saved why the commandment to go out into the world to share the gospel and make disciples of men. Why does Jesus warn of hell. Why John 3:16? The bible does not contradict. If you read something and it doesnt fit somewhere else.. you dont go make a new doctrine... You reason it out by taking it into context. I have my own sourse if you are interested.

Is universalism / universal salvation biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Is universalism / universal salvation biblical? If Jesus died for the sins of the entire world, does that mean that everyone in the world is saved?

www.gotquestions.org

that's right ''Jesus told His 'disciples' I go to prepare a place for so that you may be where i am.'' he did not say every one believing in him would also have a place made for them

 

[TheLightWithin]

As far as scripture. It was written to the believer for the believer. I glanced at your sources and the problem i see is that the scripture references are being accepted for everyone without a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. If everyones going to be saved why the commandment to go out into the world to share the gospel and make disciples of men. Why does Jesus warn of hell. Why John 3:16? The bible does not contradict. If you read something and it doesnt fit somewhere else.. you dont go make a new doctrine... You reason it out by taking it into context. I have my own sourse if you are interested.

I had seen that 'got questions' source at one point in the past.
Since you asked if there was any biblical basis for the belief, I added sources that address that question, by at least entertaining it and examining what they think are the support. One of the sources I added, the gospel coalition one, seems to conclude that they don't feel there is sufficient support, though they have links to other articles on the topic on their own site (those articles I hadn't read yet)

I am more familiar with conditional immortality though even with that I don't have chapter and verse off the top of my head. I am less well versed in the universalism debate.

Interestingly in Judaism all theories (including reincarnation) make an appearance depending on whom you ask and how they interpret the writings and traditions.

 

[TheLightWithin]

that's right ''Jesus told His 'disciples' I go to prepare a place for so that you may be where i am.'' he did not say every one believing in him would also have a place made for them

At some point, I think in Matthew, he is recorded as saying "Not everybody who calls me Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven" although what that means is up for interpretation, it helps to have an understanding of what people in that time and place thought and believed and what they would have thought it meant in their language and in their cultural and theological understanding.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I had seen that 'got questions' source at one point in the past.

@Faithfulservant

Not to just brush off "got questions" as such, they're thoughtful/articulate/intelligent etc, what I do remember of them from running across them many times is their answers always seem to be in line with what I think is probably a Reformed theology or catechism. They're reliable, you know where they stand, they don't really think outside the box -- they are predisposed to reject anything that is not in line with well known orthodox (small o orthodox) Reformed theology.

 

[TheLightWithin]

To the overall thread topic

This channel has done a little series on this subject (short series long videos)

Centre for Applied Theology

This is the YouTube Channel of the Centre for Applied Theology (CAT), and will be used to make a variety of theological resources freely available to the public.

www.youtube.com

This short video addresses the reaction against Universalism

 

[muhammad_isa]

if everyone got there based on the idea that everyone will be saved why would He say that? The two theives on the cross one said remember me when you enter into your kingdom and Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise.... He did not extend that same assurance to the other thief that mocked and denied Him.

You are implying, from your understanding of this passage, that anybody who doesn't believe in Jesus (presumably, that Jesus is G-d), cannot achieve salvation..

That would mean that Jews and Muslims are all going to hell.

@Thomas said "That all will be saved. The idea being that if God's love and mercy is Infinite, then no-one is beyond salvation."

You would have to ask him what exactly he means .. but I reiterate my position, that I don't
believe that Almighty G-d would look at the professed creed or ethnicity of a person, and that determines their "destination" .. you, of course, are entitled to believe what you like.

As you know, it is NOT that I don't believe in Holy Scripture .. on the contrary .. it is that I don't
believe in the scores of factions who claim "only such-and-such can achieve salvation".

 

[Faithfulservant]

that's right ''Jesus told His 'disciples' I go to prepare a place for so that you may be where i am.'' he did not say every one believing in him would also have a place made for them

No that was John 3:16

 

[Faithfulservant]

I had seen that 'got questions' source at one point in the past.
Since you asked if there was any biblical basis for the belief, I added sources that address that question, by at least entertaining it and examining what they think are the support. One of the sources I added, the gospel coalition one, seems to conclude that they don't feel there is sufficient support, though they have links to other articles on the topic on their own site (those articles I hadn't read yet)

Of course sourc s are going to be biased. I know gotquestions is. I trust it though.

I am more familiar with conditional immortality though even with that I don't have chapter and verse off the top of my head. I am less well versed in the universalism debate.

Interestingly in Judaism all theories (including reincarnation) make an appearance depending on whom you ask and how they interpret the writings and traditions.

Im not Jewish. Im a Gentile. Gentiles do not replace Jews. I trust God and His promises to His people.

 

[Faithfulservant]

@Faithfulservant

Not to just brush off "got questions" as such, they're thoughtful/articulate/intelligent etc, what I do remember of them from running across them many times is their answers always seem to be in line with what I think is probably a Reformed theology or catechism. They're reliable, you know where they stand, they don't really think outside the box -- they are predisposed to reject anything that is not in line with well known orthodox (small o orthodox) Reformed theology.

They are apologists. I consider myself an apologist. I know what universalism is and based on scripture i do not believe that its biblical for reasons i have expressed. Its contradictory to what Jesus said Himself. I am The Way The Truth and The Life... No one comes to The Father but by Me. I didnt write it. I believe it. I trust God. He IS a loving God but He is also Just. He got around the issue of Sin which He cannot abide but you have to accept that work around. Jesus blood shed for the sins of the world.

"It is finished" the word Jesus used was Tetelestai
In English it translates to “it is finished.” In the New Testament, it was said to be used on receipts in business meaning “debt paid in full.” In a judicial context for court, it means “fully served.” In military context, Tetelestai means “battle won.” A word used for triumph and victory.

 

[Faithfulservant]

You are implying, from your understanding of this passage, that anybody who doesn't believe in Jesus (presumably, that Jesus is G-d), cannot achieve salvation..

Thats what it says. Im not going to sugar coat my beliefs to make you feel better.

That would mean that Jews and Muslims are all going to hell.

I dont condemn anyone.. thats not my function. My function is to share the good news of Jesus Christ. We are called to do that until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled

Luke 21:24 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Thats still happening so theres still time

@Thomas said "That all will be saved. The idea being that if God's love and mercy is Infinite, then no-one is beyond salvation."

You would have to ask him what exactly he means

Which is why i asked him the question...

but I reiterate my position, that I don't
believe that Almighty G-d would look at the professed creed or ethnicity of a person, and that determines their "destination" .. you, of course, are entitled to believe what you like.

Thank you

As you know, it is NOT that I don't believe in Holy Scripture .. on the contrary .. it is that I don't
believe in the scores of factions who claim "only such-and-such can achieve salvation".

Im just going by what Jesus said. I will not apologize for it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Im just going by what Jesus said. I will not apologize for it.

I don't agree .. you have a particular creed .. you therefore ARE saying that "such-and-such" are
the only ones to be "saved".

There are scores of different factions within Christianity alone. Your beliefs on the topic
reflect your creed, and not Christianity as a whole (i.e. "what the Bible says").
Just as many Muslims I know think "they are the ones" who can only
be saved.

This sort of insistence ends in conflict .. personally, I don't look for conflict, but end up in
conflict as those around me get polarized.
The bottom line is that we will all die .. and it does not matter a jot what you or I think then.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I feel like you are one of those people that always think they are right. You dont even agree with your own holy book. I think you would be considered a lukewarm Muslim? Well . Im not a lukewarm Christian. Jesus said He would vomit that church from His mouth. The problem is that in this day there are itchy ears that hear things that sound good to them in spite of clear biblical teaching. We were warned. This is why i stick to what the bible says.

I care because i dont want anyone to go to hell. It matters to me. Jesus spoke more on hell than anyone else did. He was either a liar a lunatic or King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Jesus said not everyone that calls Him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Thats pretty clear. My belief in hell and that people will end up there offends you. Agian.. i didnt write it . I just believe it.

So if we both always have to have the last word this is going to go on and on. You know that right? Can we both just agree to disagree to avoid the conflict you say you want to avoid?

Im reminding you again that you responded to my simple question to Thomas that started this whole thing.

 

[locust]

Of course sourc s are going to be biased. I know gotquestions is. I trust it though.

Im not Jewish. Im a Gentile. Gentiles do not replace Jews. I trust God and His promises to His people.

if that's the case aren't you wasting your time thinking you are Christian ? face it ,if the jew's do not take Jesus as the Christ then there is no salvation for them.

Acts 15:14​

Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.

to turn to the nation's would mean he has turned away from Israel . the only way for a Jew to be saved would be for them to accept Jesus .

 

[Faithfulservant]

if that's the case aren't you wasting your time thinking you are Christian ? face it ,if the jew's do not take Jesus as the Christ then there is no salvation for them.

Acts 15:14​

Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.

to turn to the nation's would mean he has turned away from Israel . the only way for a Jew to be saved would be for them to accept Jesus .

Im not even going to respond to your claim that im not a Christian.

I will say that you conveniently forgot the following verses.. not to mention the entire chapter of Acts 15

15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

Not to nention the apostolic church were Jews. They didnt convert to a new religion.. they accepted Jesus as their Messiah. They still kept doing what they always did in their faith. What they didnt do is put that burden on Gentiles.

Nobody replaced the Jews. God does not lie. God doesnt dishonor His covenant with them. He may have chastized and punished them but He did as any father does. The chastisement then the love and reconciliation when the child repents. Over and over and over again .. just as He does with Christians. His mercy is everlasting.

Psalm 100.5 For the LORD is good; His mercy is everlasting, And His truth endures to all generations.