I enjoy using the parallel bibles, so I can look at four versions at once. Gets a better feel for what is going on... I'm about to get another so I can look at 7 for any verse...
Is the bible corrupted.
- Thread starter AbdAlRahman
- Start date
wil said:
Let me help in this endeavor...
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1;&version=10;
Just about every Bible you can think of is at your fingertips, in just about every language...
v/r
Q
yessir, well bookmarked and utilzed...tis where I learned I want another parrallel, one with the message in it...
also like the search engine in the bahai ocean, to compare to other texts...
and of course that comparative religion site....can't think of the link right now.
also like the search engine in the bahai ocean, to compare to other texts...
and of course that comparative religion site....can't think of the link right now.
james said:
First off the question isn't "Is Christianity corrupted", but rather "is the Bible corrupted". There is a big difference between the two. Second, no one can "ruin" God's word. It's like teflon, no matter how much junk is thrown at it and used to cover it, the stuff simply slides off and the Word of God remains the word of God, for all to see.
Third, it isn't Xtianity. It is Christianity, as in Christ follower.
The Bible is man's God inspired word, put on paper. So I suppose man can destroy the book, but the Word of God (we have been told), is written in the heart of every man from the moment of birth, so unless every human on earth is wiped out, the word of God will remain intact.
There are 3 or 4 different accounts of the trauma of Jesus' death and ressurection, Why? Because each human sees the same situation from a different perspective. However the offer of salvation is not something that is subject to personal interpretation, so questioning our faith and what it means in the end for us, is not up for discussion. You of course can question what ever you wish to. But that is your individual choice. As far as questioning our Bible, why question that which teaches us to walk the straight and narrow path? Because we don't want to walk that path? Then simply ignore what the Bible says.
What is wrong with the message of: Do unto others as you would have done unto you? Or, Love the Lord with all you've got, and love your neighbor as yourself?
The only "errors" in the Bible are man made ones. I wouldn't blame God for them...
We don't know when exactly all the books of the New Testament were written. We don't know if the books were written by the Apostles either. What we do know is that Jesus so inspired people that stories of Him and what He has done were handed down from one generation to the next for the past two thousand years. Jesus himself didn't have to "write" his own book about Himself. He inspired others to do so.
Paul did not start Christianity. He presented his story as to how Christ affected him, and how Christ affects our lives. Jesus started Christianity, or the belief in a redeemer and savior for man.
A Prophet is considered a saint, but not all "saints" are prophets.
Hope this helps.
v/r
Q
First I must point out that in order to get answers you need to get them from a variety of directions, but to me the most important direction is from within. I'll be answering from my perspective, which differs from mee, Q, Luna, Dondi, enton, China et aljames said:
I see a dramatic difference between a the corupted bible question and corrupted Christianity....I also see a difference between a corrupted Christianity and a corrupt Christianity if you follow my drift, but that shoud be another thread. Your defintions are valuable as they define the severity of the question. It isn't has it been modified, distorted, changed...corrupted is a big word. And I think in many ways it has been to the one who can't read it for what it is....and in saying this I am totally referning to Q's comment which states in other words that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Why are there many accounts of the same events, because there were many writers, and then interpreters of the writings, and then editors, and then... look at the variety of eye witness testimony today....or look to any family, ask 40 year old siblings about any incident from their youth, especially a dramatic one and you'll get as many stories and interpretations as to what happen as you have people.
I think it is always good to question ones beliefs, tis the understanding that allows your feet to be firmly planted on the ground. Tis the exploration that cements your relationship with spirit and allows you to look at the inconsistencies and and see and experience more of the underlying truth, it allows yo to look at ht horrors that faith has wreaked on humanity and grow personally.james said:
All intersting questions, ones that have caused people to leave the faith and move onto something else...and then often find the same issues with where they went. Life doesn't always present us with answers but more questions. Can't ask Jesus why he left us no script, no letters (for that matter can't ask Shakespeare either) would have been handy to point to. Of course maybe it wouldn't be...maybe there is value in that separation, and yes Pauline, and then Markian thought is our earliest thought and each in order definitely had influences over what was later written. But again, in my mind it doesn't diminish the value of the stories, I don't get tied in minutia unless someone wants to take me down that path.james said:
Not the same, but both are titles bestowed on people by others. Paul didn't start it, he was one hell of a marketer though. He was not appreciated by some followers. But by some judicious modifications/interpretations did 'start' the movement moving by planting seeds and gaining converts from both Jews and gentiles.james said:
We fight and discuss the intracies of the past, but as another thread alludes to the value in all of this is now... What are you doing now... How does this relate to you now... Can you use the teachings of Jesus now...
Looking forward to more responses. And I thank you for not only addressing questions that are at the core of the thread, but the personal exploration.
M
mee
Guest
But you may ask: ‘How can we be sure that our Bibles today have the same information that the Bible writers received from God?’ With the copying and recopying of the Bible books over hundreds and even thousands of years, have not mistakes crept in? Yes, but these mistakes have been discovered and corrected in modern translations of the Bible. Today the information is the same as God provided to those who first wrote it down. What proof is there of this?
Well, between 1947 and 1955 what are known as the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. These old scrolls include copies of books of the Hebrew Scriptures. They date from 100 to 200 years before Jesus was born. One of the scrolls is a copy of the book of Isaiah. Before this was found the oldest copy of the book of Isaiah available in Hebrew was one that had been made nearly 1,000 years after Jesus was born. When these two copies of Isaiah were compared there were only very small differences in them, most of which were small variations in spelling! This means that in more than 1,000 years of copying there had been no real change!
There are more than 1,700 ancient copies of the various portions of the Hebrew Scriptures available. By carefully comparing these many very old copies, even the few mistakes copyists made can be found and corrected. Also, there are thousands of very old copies of the Greek Scriptures, some of which copies date back nearly to the time of Jesus and his apostles. Thus, as Sir Frederic Kenyon said: "The last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed."—The Bible and Archaeology, pages 288, 289.
Well, between 1947 and 1955 what are known as the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. These old scrolls include copies of books of the Hebrew Scriptures. They date from 100 to 200 years before Jesus was born. One of the scrolls is a copy of the book of Isaiah. Before this was found the oldest copy of the book of Isaiah available in Hebrew was one that had been made nearly 1,000 years after Jesus was born. When these two copies of Isaiah were compared there were only very small differences in them, most of which were small variations in spelling! This means that in more than 1,000 years of copying there had been no real change!
There are more than 1,700 ancient copies of the various portions of the Hebrew Scriptures available. By carefully comparing these many very old copies, even the few mistakes copyists made can be found and corrected. Also, there are thousands of very old copies of the Greek Scriptures, some of which copies date back nearly to the time of Jesus and his apostles. Thus, as Sir Frederic Kenyon said: "The last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed."—The Bible and Archaeology, pages 288, 289.
This does not mean that there have not been attempts to change God’s Word. There have been. A notable example is 1 John 5:7. In the King James Version of 1611 it reads: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Yet these words do not appear in any of the very early copies of the Bible. They were added by someone who was trying to support the Trinity teaching. Since it is clear that these words are not really part of God’s Word, corrections have been made and the words do not appear in newer Bibles.
RubySera_Martin
Well-Known Member
I can well understand why Christianity is confusing for people who are coming to it from the outside. A quick look at the history of Christianity shows that from the beginning there have been many different versions of the Jesus story and its interpretations. Some of these were later labeled heretics and many of these were out-lawed and killed off. Not a pleasant picture but true all the same.
Today we are getting access to ancient literature such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library that was produced by some of these out-lawed groups. Many people today are unhappy with traditional Christianity but find meaning in Gnosticism.
Inside traditional Chrisitanity there are countless denominations and groups, each of whom believe they have it "right." Many of these will not acknowledge others as real Christians.
And then there are very many English translations of the Bible, too, each of which tries to be the best. There are also countless books written by "great scholars" about the Bible in an attempt to clarify once for all exactly what the Bible means and what is the correct understanding of the Bible.
With so many truth claims and so many claims to be the best and only right way, the natural outcome is confusion. The best advice I can give to anyone is to find what path is right for them. I can help them sort what tradition teaches what, but I cannot say which one is "true."
The same applies to versions of the Bible. For me, the KJV and Luther's German Bible are foundational because they are what I am familiar with. For me, all else is compared against these. I will talk about what is wrong wtih these Bibles but I find I need to also see what King James says in order to really understand what we are talking about.
Just to complicate things, my formal education in biblical studies is in the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV). I have never studied the prophets except in that course. One day recently I came across references to a certain prophet. I looked it up in the KJV because I thought I am more familiar with it, but I could not get my bearings. So I looked it up in NRSV because that is the version that was used for that course. And then I knew what it was talking about.
I also have a parallel Bible with New International Version, Living Bible, KJV, and Revised Standard Version. On my computer I have a program that has about eight versions of the Bible, including the Latin Vulgate, and I can set it up to view parallel passages, but only four at a time.
I like the parallels because they give a variety of ideas re what a certain verse might mean. It's sort of like hearing several accounts of the same event. One version may not make sense to me but another one will. So it depends what we want or need as to which version of the Bible is best for us. That is my take on it.
I really like what Q said that if all the Bibles were destroyed the Word of God would remain. On the other hand, the communist experiment of the USSR produces some interesting results. While the Word of God may not disappear, the Christian religion in the form with which we are familiar would disappear after a few generations if the practice of Christianity were severely suppressed.
And one more note for Q. I looked up the website where you said all the different versions and languages of the Bible can be found--Bible Gateway I think is the name. I could not find any parallel set-up. All I could get was one verse in a certain language and version at at time.
Today we are getting access to ancient literature such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library that was produced by some of these out-lawed groups. Many people today are unhappy with traditional Christianity but find meaning in Gnosticism.
Inside traditional Chrisitanity there are countless denominations and groups, each of whom believe they have it "right." Many of these will not acknowledge others as real Christians.
And then there are very many English translations of the Bible, too, each of which tries to be the best. There are also countless books written by "great scholars" about the Bible in an attempt to clarify once for all exactly what the Bible means and what is the correct understanding of the Bible.
With so many truth claims and so many claims to be the best and only right way, the natural outcome is confusion. The best advice I can give to anyone is to find what path is right for them. I can help them sort what tradition teaches what, but I cannot say which one is "true."
The same applies to versions of the Bible. For me, the KJV and Luther's German Bible are foundational because they are what I am familiar with. For me, all else is compared against these. I will talk about what is wrong wtih these Bibles but I find I need to also see what King James says in order to really understand what we are talking about.
Just to complicate things, my formal education in biblical studies is in the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV). I have never studied the prophets except in that course. One day recently I came across references to a certain prophet. I looked it up in the KJV because I thought I am more familiar with it, but I could not get my bearings. So I looked it up in NRSV because that is the version that was used for that course. And then I knew what it was talking about.
I also have a parallel Bible with New International Version, Living Bible, KJV, and Revised Standard Version. On my computer I have a program that has about eight versions of the Bible, including the Latin Vulgate, and I can set it up to view parallel passages, but only four at a time.
I like the parallels because they give a variety of ideas re what a certain verse might mean. It's sort of like hearing several accounts of the same event. One version may not make sense to me but another one will. So it depends what we want or need as to which version of the Bible is best for us. That is my take on it.
I really like what Q said that if all the Bibles were destroyed the Word of God would remain. On the other hand, the communist experiment of the USSR produces some interesting results. While the Word of God may not disappear, the Christian religion in the form with which we are familiar would disappear after a few generations if the practice of Christianity were severely suppressed.
And one more note for Q. I looked up the website where you said all the different versions and languages of the Bible can be found--Bible Gateway I think is the name. I could not find any parallel set-up. All I could get was one verse in a certain language and version at at time.
RubySera_Martin said:
That is where man's mind comes into play. You can remember more things than the media says we are capable of. Else we wouldn't be able to speak different languages...I never said it would be easy, just possible.
v/r
Q
Call me a skeptic...but I'd love to see these two side by side...can you provide a link or reference to this documentation?mee said:
C
cyberpi
Guest
Quahom1 said:
What a shame they missed Matthew 5:36, among other things. Like the fate of those value darkness instead of light.
cyberpi said:
I know the passage, but don't understand the context in which you are putting it. I also do not know much about Masons, only that I have one of their Bibles. So maybe you are referring to something they do which involves some kind of swearing of an oath?
v/r
Q
Dor
Bible Thumper
Is the bible corrupted? Yes and no.
Some of the versions you find have been altered, changed, updated to modern language...this is not what I would call corrupted though.
Now there are also some versions that have been corrupted to specifically teach the beliefs of certain denominations leaders...actually being changed to teach something not there or disprove something that is...that I would consider corruption.
There are many denominations in Christianity today...some good, some not so good, some that fall into the cult definition...who am I to judge though.
Well actually we are supposed to...the bible tells us what to watch out for...how to test prophets...to watch out for false prophets that want to lead us astray.
Pray,Pray,Pray and listen...He will not lead you astray.
Some of the versions you find have been altered, changed, updated to modern language...this is not what I would call corrupted though.
Now there are also some versions that have been corrupted to specifically teach the beliefs of certain denominations leaders...actually being changed to teach something not there or disprove something that is...that I would consider corruption.
There are many denominations in Christianity today...some good, some not so good, some that fall into the cult definition...who am I to judge though.
Well actually we are supposed to...the bible tells us what to watch out for...how to test prophets...to watch out for false prophets that want to lead us astray.
Pray,Pray,Pray and listen...He will not lead you astray.
who am I to judge thoughDor said:
Namaste Dor, I agree tis not for us to judge, we must be careful though as we judge by our words we use. Cult by definition of many is a group of people whose beliefs are so opposed to mine I am trying to discount them and seperate myself from them...but in reality definitions are put in dictionaries in order of usage....and if we partake in an organized religion....we are members of a cult. From Miriam-Webster Dictionary we need to get the third definition before we get to the usage you refered to, and most those that utilize the bible would be in definitions 1, 2, and 5:
Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k<
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at [SIZE=-1]WHEEL[/SIZE]
1 : formal religious veneration : [SIZE=-1]WORSHIP[/SIZE]
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work
Dor
Bible Thumper
Wil
Ask 100 people on the street the definition of a cult and I dont believe number 1 will be the majority.
Actually we are supposed to judge things it is all through the bible but that would be for another thread.
The question was is the Bible corrupted...
v. cor·rupt·ed, cor·rupt·ing, cor·rupts
v. tr.
Ask 100 people on the street the definition of a cult and I dont believe number 1 will be the majority.
Actually we are supposed to judge things it is all through the bible but that would be for another thread.
The question was is the Bible corrupted...
v. cor·rupt·ed, cor·rupt·ing, cor·rupts
v. tr.
- To destroy or subvert the honesty or integrity of.
- To ruin morally; pervert.
- To taint; contaminate.
- To cause to become rotten; spoil.
- To change the original form of (a text, for example).
- Computer Science. To damage (data) in a file or on a disk.
dor...looks like you touched a nerve...maybe someone is part of a cult, and i agree with you about what you say as regarding cults....did anyone watch the man with 80 wives? warren jeffs...do a search on him...
there are however sects in all religions...in all religions there are diversions...however small they maybe and therefore unsignificant in some religions.
as someone said before...whether the bible is corrupted means something different than whether christianity is corrupted?christian beleifs come from the bible, and from the pope (as within catholism) so if the bible is corrupted the religion and hence beleifs could very well be, whether people will say it is jus differnt views....but i refer back to the resurection...in one accout there is 1 woman, another 3, another a different 3, another 2...how can these, jus be different peoples views...these people where there or not?i just think, maybe if these little not really significant things can be totally different, do we know what is really meant to be?...becoming stronger and reading the bible more has actually made me question catholism and christianity and i dont know whats going on!!
there are however sects in all religions...in all religions there are diversions...however small they maybe and therefore unsignificant in some religions.
as someone said before...whether the bible is corrupted means something different than whether christianity is corrupted?christian beleifs come from the bible, and from the pope (as within catholism) so if the bible is corrupted the religion and hence beleifs could very well be, whether people will say it is jus differnt views....but i refer back to the resurection...in one accout there is 1 woman, another 3, another a different 3, another 2...how can these, jus be different peoples views...these people where there or not?i just think, maybe if these little not really significant things can be totally different, do we know what is really meant to be?...becoming stronger and reading the bible more has actually made me question catholism and christianity and i dont know whats going on!!
Jack Halyard
Hermano Pequeño
Quahom1 said:
I have my dad's Masonic edition of the Holy Bible which is nothing more than a KJV containing both old and new testaments.
Jack Halyard said:
Ya Jack, I imagine they have versions for every "faith" that might walk in and become a member...
I happened to find my version at a "flee market", and thought it too precious to be sitting in dust, simply for what it profoundly was/is.
v/r
Q
james said:
None of the Gospels is meant to be the complete story. They are meant to be read in conjunction because they were written for different purposes - to portray Jesus from four different aspects ... just as a story of your life that focused only on your work career would not give a complete account of your life.
The four accounts of the resurrection reflect the different emphases of the Gospel writers, guided I believe, by the Holy Spirit. All the women you refer to were at the tomb. It is an interesting task to try to reconcile the times and visits of the women, and this has been done in a number of different ways. Of course all these "harmonizations" cannot be correct, and we may favour one version over another, but the main point is that the four Gospel accounts can be reconciled, and one Gospel does not contradict the other.
You might look at this site for a possible harmonization of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection. http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_tomb.html
If there are any other Scriptural conflicts you have come across, why not raise them here for discussion. My stand is that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. I may not be able to prove that to you but I believe I can explain any apparent discrepancies to you.
Ken
Namaste Dor, I agree, most of our world is not prone to use definitions correctly. I'm as guilty as the next guy, never did well in English and cheated my way through high school, so I apologize for all my gramatical and spelling errors. But in the US tis apparent we prefer idioms and personal definitions that change with time...and eventually the dictionaries catch up. Could you imagine what your 100 people on the street would say if I said, "Come on help the man out, I can't believe you are behaving so niggardly" Just because the world doesn't know the language or uses it inappropriately doesn't mean we can't educate each other. I was once hired to do work a western educational program, they had hundreds, thousands of kids come in on busses to see the pigs, milk the cows, hear about farm and cowboy life...when I told them that I would no longer work there if they wouldn't quit referring to thier Bison as a buffalo we parted ways. They said most people know it as a buffalo, I said you are an educational program, if you aren't going to use this time to teach elementary school children the correct terms....who is?Dor said:
James, I'm proudly a member of the Christian Cult, and if we ever have a chance to meet we'll trade koolaid recipes.
Dor, back to your definitions of 1 and 5, which bibles are you referring to that are corrupted? Which version do you feel isn't? I think the question is, have all of them been corrupted...
I have heard it said the only one and true version is the KJV, and the reality is that is his version of biblical reality, bought and paid for.