Dor
Bible Thumper
Well any of them that attack Gods Word, try to get rid of the divinity of Christ , try to get rid of the Trinity, etc...wil said:
Please show me where the KJV is his version of biblical reality, bought and paid for!
Is the bible corrupted.
- Thread starter AbdAlRahman
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Please show me where the KJV is his version of biblical reality, bought and paid for!
C
cyberpi
Guest
Who wrote the word Trinity? Is it a word from God (swt)? Is it a word Jesus (pbuh) spoke of? Did the Holy Spirit give it to you?Dor said:
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
cyberpi said:
The earliest surviving writing containing the term (trinitas) roughly in its "orthodox" form is from Tertullian in the Adversus Praxean.
C
cyberpi
Guest
So when I speak against the Trinity then I speak against the beliefs of Praxeas and Tertullian. Who writes your beliefs?
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
Just Tertullian of the two. Adversus Praxean was another of the many early "anti-Heretic" boondoggles the early "fathers" liked to occupy their time writing. This one is made particularly ironic, of course, by the fact that Tertullian was denounced as a heretic by the heresy-hunting monster he helped create when he became a Montanist later in life.cyberpi said:
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
Quahom1 said:Very interesting indeed...
v/r
Q
I thought you'd like that.
C
cyberpi
Guest
Which of the two claimed Jesus (pbuh) was God (swt)?Abogado del Diablo said:
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
cyberpi said:
Tertullian. He was the one who was later denounced as a heretic by the Church himself. Though his earlier thoughts and writings remained a cornerstone of "orthodox" theology and (more importantly) methodology.
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
And to clarify, Tertullian was the first to start talking about the theological construct of the trinitas. The more general idea that Jesus was "God" was also championed by Irenaeus, and by Justin Martyr and Polycarp before him.
JustifiedByFaith
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Abogado del Diablo said:
Dear Abogado del Diablo,
Plus, only God can be without sin and forgive sin to the extent of wiping it clean! Jesus fits this criteria and allowed Himself to be worshiped.
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
JustifiedByFaith said:
I'm just putting a few historical facts out there. As they say here in Texas: "I don't have a dog in this fight."
C
cyberpi
Guest
Why not? I am simply looking for the origin of who created the Trinity... because its not in the bible. If it were the word of God (swt), then I don't want to counter it... so I look up Tertullian's literature to see if he claims God (swt) told him. No... Tertullian was not a profit. In fact he was countering Praxeas who thought Jesus (pbuh) and God (swt) were so much the same that you could say god the Father died on the cross. The guy first known to write about a Trinity was AGAINST saying Jesus (pbuh) and God (swt) were the same.
http://www.tertullian.org/works/adversus_praxean.htm
http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf03/anf03-43.htm
http://www.tertullian.org/articles/evans_praxeas_eng.htm
http://www.tertullian.org/works/adversus_praxean.htm
http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf03/anf03-43.htm
http://www.tertullian.org/articles/evans_praxeas_eng.htm
What do you mean by worship? The same word used in the gospels in the bible? Who wrote this belief?JustifiedByFaith said:
cyberpi said:
No, you just do not see it in the Bible. That does not make it not so.
That is what is called, your opinion.
It can not be helped if references are pointed out but are ignored by those who refuse to accept them. But to continuously hammer at something that has been explained over and over again, gets a bit tedious.
v/r
Q
Namaste Dor,Dor said:
I am still trying to get a handle on which bible versions you believe to be sanctioned or ok, and which versions you feel are corrupted.
As for the KJV being bought and paid for. It is after all KING JAME"S version. It isn't Jesus's version, or Mose's version, or Jefferson's version. It is King Jame's version. When one has power and money and can gather a group together to entertain this sort of endeavor, one gets to create, buy and pay for, their own version.
The Jeffersonian Bible, by the US President, author of the constitution, Thomas Jefferson would be one of the corrupt ones I believe under your criteria...
So on one hand I feel all bibles are corrupted, have had their words modified by man, indiviudual thoughts and interpretations inserted.
But on the other hand I feel G-d is involved, spirit is involved in all interpretations, and their is value in it all.
JosephM
Well-Known Member
The original question is: Is the Bible corrupted? May I address that issue directly with as much love as I can.
Whether or not the Bible is the inerrant (100% accurate) word of God has been an explosive issue for over the last 1600 years. Debating this point is an emotion packed event that defies rationality by rational human minds. One insists it is inerrant and another that it is riddled with errors. One says it has withstood the test of time and that it has never been disproved and another says it has already been disproved many times. If it cannot be done in Love, then getting to the truth is not worth the effort concerning this issue.
I am reminded of a true story told to me by a friend who has a granddaughter about 5 years old named Autumn. He baby sits for her most weekends and has become quite fond of their close relationship. One day he grabbed her Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck dolls and held them behind his back. He then asked her, “Autumn, how many fingers including thumbs do Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck have on each hand?” Her reply, as a matter of fact was, “PapPa, you know they have five fingers on each hand!” To which he replied, “Autumn, what if I were to tell you that they only had four fingers including the thumb on each hand? She answered immediately and said, “PapPa, that can’t be. You know they have five fingers on each hand. They are my dolls and I know it is so!” He responded, “What if I was to show you they only had four?” With irritation as if being teased she replied, “That impossible and can’t be PapPa cause they definitely have five.” Seeing her irritation, he pulled the dolls out from behind his back and presented them to her and said, “Count them then”. She looked at the Dolls and said. “See they have five fingers” And then proceeded to count them to show him he was wrong but could only count four fingers. Immediately she became extremely upset and stormed away. Whether she yet believed him or not, I do not know. She might have said to herself it was some kind of trick.
Sometimes we are so sure of something that we fail to even check it out when someone offers an opposing view to a position we hold. So what has this to do with the topic of the Bible’s inerrancy? Well, I would think mostly, everything. When our mind is so made up about anything it is near impossible to change it either way unless the truth stares us right in the eyes and even then we still have the option to choose to not believe or to believe what we see.
So to answer this question, whether it is inerrant or not is up to you and whether or not you really want to know the truth for yourself. So I would only ask you to read one story from the Old Testament for yourself. It is located in 1 Samuel 16: 14-23 and 1 Samuel 17:32–58. I would ask you to read it carefully and with understanding of the words taking special note to the last 5 versus. Is there anything wrong with this story? Does it contain an error that shows corruption or contradiction? You be the one to answer that question after careful reading. If God doesn’t show you an error then neither can I. I will include the KJV text for your reading convenience but you can use your own Bible if you like.
1 Samuel 16:14-23
But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him. [15] And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. [16] Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well. [17] And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me. [18] Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the Lord is with him. [19] Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep. [20] And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul. [21] And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer. [22] And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favour in my sight. [23] And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
1 Samuel 17:32-58
And David said to Saul, Let no man's heart fail because of him; thy servant will go and fight with this Philistine. [33] And Saul said to David, Thou art not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him: for thou art but a youth, and he a man of war from his youth. [34] And David said unto Saul, Thy servant kept his father's sheep, and there came a lion, and a bear, and took a lamb out of the flock: [35] And I went out after him, and smote him, and delivered it out of his mouth: and when he arose against me, I caught him by his beard, and smote him, and slew him. [36] Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God. [37] David said moreover, The Lord that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said unto David, Go, and the Lord be with thee.
[38] And Saul armed David with his armour, and he put an helmet of brass upon his head; also he armed him with a coat of mail. [39] And David girded his sword upon his armour, and he assayed to go; for he had not proved it. And David said unto Saul, I cannot go with these; for I have not proved them. And David put them off him.
[40] And he took his staff in his hand, and chose him five smooth stones out of the brook, and put them in a shepherd's bag which he had, even in a scrip; and his sling was in his hand: and he drew near to the Philistine. [41] And the Philistine came on and drew near unto David; and the man that bare the shield went before him. [42] And when the Philistine looked about, and saw David, he disdained him: for he was but a youth, and ruddy, and of a fair countenance. [43] And the Philistine said unto David, Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. [44] And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field. [45] Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied. [46] This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel. [47] And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands. [48] And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came and drew nigh to meet David, that David hasted, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine. [49] And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth. [50] So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David. [51] Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled. [52] And the men of Israel and of Judah arose, and shouted, and pursued the Philistines, until thou come to the valley, and to the gates of Ekron. And the wounded of the Philistines fell down by the way to Shaaraim, even unto Gath, and unto Ekron. [53] And the children of Israel returned from chasing after the Philistines, and they spoiled their tents.
[54] And David took the head of the Philistine, and brought it to Jerusalem; but he put his armour in his tent. [55] And when Saul saw David go forth against the Philistine, he said unto Abner, the captain of the host, Abner, whose son is this youth? And Abner said, As thy soul liveth, O king, I cannot tell. [56] And the king said, Enquire thou whose son the stripling is. [57] And as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand. [58] And Saul said to him, Whose son art thou, thou young man? And David answered, I am the son of thy servant Jesse the Bethlehemite.
If you see no error then the Bible to you is indeed inerrant and you have no conflict with me. If you find something wrong or in error then the Bible is not inerrant and you still have no conflict with me.
Love in Christ,
Joseph Mattioli
Whether or not the Bible is the inerrant (100% accurate) word of God has been an explosive issue for over the last 1600 years. Debating this point is an emotion packed event that defies rationality by rational human minds. One insists it is inerrant and another that it is riddled with errors. One says it has withstood the test of time and that it has never been disproved and another says it has already been disproved many times. If it cannot be done in Love, then getting to the truth is not worth the effort concerning this issue.
I am reminded of a true story told to me by a friend who has a granddaughter about 5 years old named Autumn. He baby sits for her most weekends and has become quite fond of their close relationship. One day he grabbed her Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck dolls and held them behind his back. He then asked her, “Autumn, how many fingers including thumbs do Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck have on each hand?” Her reply, as a matter of fact was, “PapPa, you know they have five fingers on each hand!” To which he replied, “Autumn, what if I were to tell you that they only had four fingers including the thumb on each hand? She answered immediately and said, “PapPa, that can’t be. You know they have five fingers on each hand. They are my dolls and I know it is so!” He responded, “What if I was to show you they only had four?” With irritation as if being teased she replied, “That impossible and can’t be PapPa cause they definitely have five.” Seeing her irritation, he pulled the dolls out from behind his back and presented them to her and said, “Count them then”. She looked at the Dolls and said. “See they have five fingers” And then proceeded to count them to show him he was wrong but could only count four fingers. Immediately she became extremely upset and stormed away. Whether she yet believed him or not, I do not know. She might have said to herself it was some kind of trick.
Sometimes we are so sure of something that we fail to even check it out when someone offers an opposing view to a position we hold. So what has this to do with the topic of the Bible’s inerrancy? Well, I would think mostly, everything. When our mind is so made up about anything it is near impossible to change it either way unless the truth stares us right in the eyes and even then we still have the option to choose to not believe or to believe what we see.
So to answer this question, whether it is inerrant or not is up to you and whether or not you really want to know the truth for yourself. So I would only ask you to read one story from the Old Testament for yourself. It is located in 1 Samuel 16: 14-23 and 1 Samuel 17:32–58. I would ask you to read it carefully and with understanding of the words taking special note to the last 5 versus. Is there anything wrong with this story? Does it contain an error that shows corruption or contradiction? You be the one to answer that question after careful reading. If God doesn’t show you an error then neither can I. I will include the KJV text for your reading convenience but you can use your own Bible if you like.
1 Samuel 16:14-23
But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him. [15] And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. [16] Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well. [17] And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me. [18] Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the Lord is with him. [19] Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep. [20] And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul. [21] And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer. [22] And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favour in my sight. [23] And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
1 Samuel 17:32-58
And David said to Saul, Let no man's heart fail because of him; thy servant will go and fight with this Philistine. [33] And Saul said to David, Thou art not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him: for thou art but a youth, and he a man of war from his youth. [34] And David said unto Saul, Thy servant kept his father's sheep, and there came a lion, and a bear, and took a lamb out of the flock: [35] And I went out after him, and smote him, and delivered it out of his mouth: and when he arose against me, I caught him by his beard, and smote him, and slew him. [36] Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God. [37] David said moreover, The Lord that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said unto David, Go, and the Lord be with thee.
[38] And Saul armed David with his armour, and he put an helmet of brass upon his head; also he armed him with a coat of mail. [39] And David girded his sword upon his armour, and he assayed to go; for he had not proved it. And David said unto Saul, I cannot go with these; for I have not proved them. And David put them off him.
[40] And he took his staff in his hand, and chose him five smooth stones out of the brook, and put them in a shepherd's bag which he had, even in a scrip; and his sling was in his hand: and he drew near to the Philistine. [41] And the Philistine came on and drew near unto David; and the man that bare the shield went before him. [42] And when the Philistine looked about, and saw David, he disdained him: for he was but a youth, and ruddy, and of a fair countenance. [43] And the Philistine said unto David, Am I a dog, that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. [44] And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field. [45] Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied. [46] This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel. [47] And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands. [48] And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came and drew nigh to meet David, that David hasted, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine. [49] And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth. [50] So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David. [51] Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled. [52] And the men of Israel and of Judah arose, and shouted, and pursued the Philistines, until thou come to the valley, and to the gates of Ekron. And the wounded of the Philistines fell down by the way to Shaaraim, even unto Gath, and unto Ekron. [53] And the children of Israel returned from chasing after the Philistines, and they spoiled their tents.
[54] And David took the head of the Philistine, and brought it to Jerusalem; but he put his armour in his tent. [55] And when Saul saw David go forth against the Philistine, he said unto Abner, the captain of the host, Abner, whose son is this youth? And Abner said, As thy soul liveth, O king, I cannot tell. [56] And the king said, Enquire thou whose son the stripling is. [57] And as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand. [58] And Saul said to him, Whose son art thou, thou young man? And David answered, I am the son of thy servant Jesse the Bethlehemite.
If you see no error then the Bible to you is indeed inerrant and you have no conflict with me. If you find something wrong or in error then the Bible is not inerrant and you still have no conflict with me.
Love in Christ,
Joseph Mattioli
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
Is this in response to my comment about not having a dog in the fight? If so, it's because I don't take on faith the inerrancy of any scripture, so I have no vested in interest in proving that somebody else's inerrant scripture is errant.cyberpi said:
Actually you asked two questions that are related, but not quite the same. You asked first "who came up with the Trinity?". You then asked "who first said Jesus is God?" (paraphrased) And now, in your latest post, you contrast Tertullian in the Adversus Praxean as taking issue with Praxeus's statement that God and Jesus are the same by responding with the doctrine of the Trinity. BTW, "Praxeus" is an unknown person some think Tertullian created as a strawman for Irenaeus himself! - sort of a Platonic Dialogue in this particular anti-heresy tract.cyberpi said:
I tried to clarify this above, but left out too many details to be helpful I think. As to whether the doctrine of the Trinity posits that Jesus is God, you'll generally find yourself in a giant game of 'Whack-a-Mole' with most orthodox christians on that one. I think you'll generally find that Trinitarians will agree with the statement "Jesus is God," but they won't agree with the statement "Jesus is the same as God."* This is the difference between Tertullian's trinitas and the more general concept that Jesus is God (i.e. the "same as" God), which he claimed to be refuting. BTW, if you can make logical sense of the distinction between the two, then you're further ahead than any orthodox Christian ever has been, because they're still calling it a "mystery" after 2000 years.
*Again, your mileage may vary.
Dor
Bible Thumper
Ok Jesus never said the word car either does that mean they dont exist?cyberpi said:
The bible speaks about the Trinity which you have been shown time and time again. It might not say the word and the word is not the big deal the concept is there and thats the important part.
Dor
Bible Thumper
I truely believe we are supposed to judge things because we are told to in the bible and we have seen Jesus do it.wil said:
That being said Im not going to on this forum cause people tend to get hammered when they do.
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cyberpi said:
Dear cyberpi,
Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him He said to Him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?" He answered and said, "Who is He, Lord that I may believe in Him?" And Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you." Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him.
John 9:35-38
There are other examples such as doubting Thomas and others but basically Jesus did not rebuke those who worshipped Him knowing that they are worshipping the Almighty Alpha and Omega...the Beginning and End... the One who will die yet lives forevermore! The Everlasting Father and Prince Of Peace! Praise Jesus All Creatures great and small!