God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions

In references to God in Scripture (almost 170 references to God as the Father), there is clearly a consistent pattern of Him being referred to with masculine titles, nouns and pronouns. While God is not a man, but is a Spirit, He chose a masculine form in order to reveal Himself to mankind. Likewise, Jesus Christ, who is constantly referred to with masculine titles, nouns and pronouns took a male form while He walked on the earth. The prophets of the Old Testament and the Apostles of the New Testament refer to both God and Jesus Christ with masculine names and titles as they were inspired by the holy spirit and wrote about the nature of god. Great men like moses knew God face to face and recorded the nature of God and the means by which He revealed Himself to Moses as masculine. God chose to be revealed in this form in order for man to more easily grasp who God is.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
In references to God in Scripture (almost 170 references to God as the Father), there is clearly a consistent pattern of Him being referred to with masculine titles, nouns and pronouns. While God is not a man, but is a Spirit, He chose a masculine form in order to reveal Himself to mankind. Likewise, Jesus Christ, who is constantly referred to with masculine titles, nouns and pronouns took a male form while He walked on the earth. The prophets of the Old Testament and the Apostles of the New Testament refer to both God and Jesus Christ with masculine names and titles as they were inspired by the holy spirit and wrote about the nature of god. Great men like moses knew God face to face and recorded the nature of God and the means by which He revealed Himself to Moses as masculine. God chose to be revealed in this form in order for man to more easily grasp who God is.
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There are some religious beliefs older than the Judeo/Christian faith that refer and revere God as a "she".

just a thought.

v/r

Q
 
I've been staring at this post for days and I'm not sure what to make of it. Are you saying that any religion older than Christianity is silly or misguided? Or am I reading too much into your post?
 
I would humbly suggest and submit that the presence of the Divine Feminine in early Christianity - if not also in the other Abrahamic traditions - was most certainly acknowledged, honored, and revered ... every bit as much as her now-popularized counterpart(s).

taijasi
 
taijasi said:
I would humbly suggest and submit that the presence of the Divine Feminine in early Christianity - if not also in the other Abrahamic traditions - was most certainly acknowledged, honored, and revered ... every bit as much as her now-popularized counterpart(s).

taijasi
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It would be helpful if you could provide evidence to the same Taij. I would be very curious to see actual writings or references to such writings.

v/r

Q
 
men and women are equal....yet they have set places in this life told to us by god...som,eone mentioned before about men being able to be maried to more women...etc...god has deemded this acceptable...so why question...also in a lot of muslim countries and i think the world...not too sure...the women population is greater...a man may only have more than one wife if he treats them equal...if he buys one a car...he has to buy the others a car...a woman cannot have more than one husband because problems with who the father is may occur
 
Knowing who the father is is only a problem if the woman (and therefore her children) is reliant upon her husband for financial support. If she is financially independent, or supported by her own family (parents, brothers, etc.), who cares who the father of her children is? And as far as having "set places told to us by god" - that only works if you accept that those strictures are indeed sent by God. If you believe that, fine for you, but don't expect everyone to accept it as readily.
 
Zaakir said:
men and women are equal....yet they have set places in this life told to us by god...som,eone mentioned before about men being able to be maried to more women...etc...god has deemded this acceptable...so why question...also in a lot of muslim countries and i think the world...not too sure...the women population is greater...a man may only have more than one wife if he treats them equal...if he buys one a car...he has to buy the others a car...a woman cannot have more than one husband because problems with who the father is may occur
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The general population of women is greater on earth because of (among other things) the attrition rate of men caused by...war.

I'm not sure which scriptures you are looking at to reinforce your thought that God has deemed multiple wives as acceptable, but the only scriptures I have found that even remotely resemble that philosopy, only show that God "tolerated" with sadness man's folly at taking on more than one woman as wife. It seems to me that the taking of more than one wife at the same time contraticts the statement that men and women are equal.

And where there are two or more vying for the same "prize", there will always be competition and envy or jealousy. The very concept of polygamy is unfair to all parties concerned. Especially the children of such multiple unions. Often the result is animosity between half siblings.

In the beginning, Genesis is quite specific about marriage:

Genesis 2: 24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

Now as far as Scarlet's comment about not needing a father/husband, well perhaps the woman can survive that situation, but the children are greatly affected by a lack of a father. And having other family members around as a support vehicle is not the same thing, and can never take the place of "father". Children grow up with a sense of loss they often can't describe. None the less the sense of loss is very real.

my thoughts

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Now as far as Scarlet's comment about not needing a father/husband, well perhaps the woman can survive that situation, but the children are greatly affected by a lack of a father. And having other family members around as a support vehicle is not the same thing, and can never take the place of "father". Children grow up with a sense of loss they often can't describe. None the less the sense of loss is very real.
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Not going to argue with you on this one, Q...but I wasn't referring to how the children fare. I was responding directly to Zaakir's comment about why men could have more than one wife but women can't have more than one husband...i.e., then there would be problems with paternity and therefore inheritance. And that is something that the kids are not bothered by. Just ask my youngest niece - the only "father" she knows is her stepfather, and she couldn't care less that they're not blood relations. Matter of fact, neither could he.

(Although now that I think about it, I wonder if kids in cultures where a two-parent nuclear family is not the norm or ideal also feel the same "sense of loss".)
 
Scarlet Pimpernel said:
Not going to argue with you on this one, Q...but I wasn't referring to how the children fare. I was responding directly to Zaakir's comment about why men could have more than one wife but women can't have more than one husband...i.e., then there would be problems with paternity and therefore inheritance. And that is something that the kids are not bothered by. Just ask my youngest niece - the only "father" she knows is her stepfather, and she couldn't care less that they're not blood relations. Matter of fact, neither could he.

(Although now that I think about it, I wonder if kids in cultures where a two-parent nuclear family is not the norm or ideal also feel the same "sense of loss".)
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Children without a deliberate two parent (male/female) nuclear family is relatively new (pretty much world wide). Zaakir's comment on why men could have more than one wife covers only about 500,000,000 people (men), on earth. Clearly it isn't a majority concept (I know for fact that I can only barely handle one woman as a mate)... :rolleyes: ;)

Clearly there are males out in the world who still consider women less than equal, and I doubt that will change. However, I'd like to think the greater majority of males value women highly, Highly enough to commit themselves to the woman, and that woman alone.

Now if there is evidence that the majority of men have more than one wife (or mistress/concubine)...then I'll stand corrected.

I suspect that any spouse that has more than one spouse, has complicated issues far beyond the traditional one on one concept.

Zaakir has also pointed out that he has a different idea about what "equality" means between men and women. That doesn't make his thinking any more wrong than yours or mine...:)

You might consider his concept radical, yes? He might consider your concept as equally radical. And you both might consider my concept as, "quaint".

I do suppose a "rich woman" could conceivably have more than one husband, however it seems to be rare (not sure why). Perhaps due to social "norms"?

As far as children of families where two parents (male/female), are not the norm, nor ideal?...considering that it is natural, I fail to see any culture that children would not have a sense of loss, by not having one parent or the other in their lives.

If you are inferring that two men or two women can be the "parents"...true. However, those children will ultimately seek out a parent figure (gender wise), that is missing in their lives, whether the "Guardians" wish it or not. It is natural that they do. Instinctively, they understand the need for balance.

If the child is a girl, she needs a father figure (between age 8 and 14, then again at 17-19), to know how to relate to men. And if the child is a boy, he needs a mother figure (between the same age group), to know how to relate to women. Of course their needs for role models switch as they grow, however, they need both for balance.

I can't base my observations on scientific data (I haven't researched it enough). But I can base it on personal experience.

Moms teach daughters to be women, while Dad's teach daughters how to be ladies. Dads teach sons how to be men, while Moms teach sons how to be gentlemen. Why? we look for our mom or our dad in our relationship with significant others.

of course these are just my thoughts.

v/r

Q
 
Lots of good points, Q...

I agree with you wholeheartedly about children of same-sex couples needing a parent-like figure of the other sex, and I've always planned to make sure there was a good man in my children's lives, should there ever be any children...does that surprise you?;)

But actually, with my last comment I was referring to the sort of culture in which the nuclear family is not the center - for instance, if everyone lives in a longhouse, or if the woman and her children live with her extended family and not with any sexual partners. I was just kind of thinking out loud and don't really want to go any further with it because I know nothing about it. Maybe if path of one is following this thread she'd be willing to set me straight.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
the first created human was a man in gods image. god is the father. prophets: men. melchizedek was a man, the son of god on earth was a man, the church is the bride of christ (even in heaven jesus is referred as a man - the groom). the holy spirit came unto mary and gave her a son. i would say that god is a masculine by nature based on his actions.
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I think you're mixing up two versions of creation in Genesis. My NASB says in Genesis 1 that men AND women were created in God's image. So what does that tell us about God?
 
"Mostly true. However there have been prophetesses (biblical), and they were told specifically how to dress in order to present themselves with authority as given by God (head covered, quiet in their ways for example), but they were not to be dismissed, else there would be hell to pay. The Holy Spirit did not visit Mary...an Angel did. There is absolutely no biblical reference showing the Holy Spirit ever to take on the form of a human, let alone a male human."
_____________

And Deborah was a Judge.

And then there were Judith and Esther.......
 
"I disagree. I think women can preach the word of God, and I think they do daily. They just don't command thousands of people's attention, at a stretch. No, they command the attention of their children. And it really isn't commanding, but more like enthralling."
________________

Aimee Semple McPherson, Katherine Kuhlman, and many other women preachers have commanded the attention of thousands.
 
namesdontmatter said:
Peace and blessings of God be upon you,

Jesus Christ's or not, that's what it says in the bible. If you're saying that something taught in the bible is false, and shouldn't be followed, then fine, but I was just showing why the church won't allow females into the clergy.

--Would a rose, by any other...?
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Paul distinguishes between things he has "from the Lord," and things he is saying on his own. The above I believe falls into the latter category.

And didn't Paul also say that in Jesus Christ there is no male or female?
 
G-d to me is not gender neutral, but no gender/all gender. And women may fill the shoes they wish to fill. I agree as mothers they do a tremendous amount with their own children, with the neighbor children, as teachers, as care givers...but should they wish to step up to preach, to govern, to lead...I say amen....er awomen...and so it is!

They are the creators, rather nice of them to leave us in power so long...but it is time for them to step into the world full blast and fix all that men have screwed up the last few millenia...
 
Scarlet Pimpernel said:
Lots of good points, Q...

I agree with you wholeheartedly about children of same-sex couples needing a parent-like figure of the other sex, and I've always planned to make sure there was a good man in my children's lives, should there ever be any children...does that surprise you?;)

But actually, with my last comment I was referring to the sort of culture in which the nuclear family is not the center - for instance, if everyone lives in a longhouse, or if the woman and her children live with her extended family and not with any sexual partners. I was just kind of thinking out loud and don't really want to go any further with it because I know nothing about it. Maybe if path of one is following this thread she'd be willing to set me straight.
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Actually no it doesn't surprise me. :) Ah the longhouse, or Chiefs' hut...like the tribes living on the atolls in the South Pacific. But I would consider that entire tribal concept one BIG extended family. Every Chief and senior male is a father figure, and every Matron and senior female is a mother figure. Everyone has a role in raising the children.

It works well for small communities, or large families...:D

v/r

Q
 
Jeannot said:
I think you're mixing up two versions of creation in Genesis. My NASB says in Genesis 1 that men AND women were created in God's image. So what does that tell us about God?
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no, im not mixing up anything. who was created first? and if men and women were made in gods image, obviously image isnt referring specifically to gender, but for God to make a man first, what does that tell you about God? For God to send his only begotten Son as a man, what does that tell you about God? for the Son to call the One in Heaven, Father, what does that tell you about God? for God to make man to be masculine, and the holy spirit to overshadow the virgin mary, what does that tell you about God? to me, it doesnt necessarily have to make God male, but it does make him masculine, without a doubt.
 
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