What do we know about God?

[taijasi]

Actually Christianity does not state non-Christians can't go to heaven ...

What it states is that those who accept the offer of salvation, will not be judged to determine if they receive eternal life, or eternal damnation. They will be judged as to what reward they will have in heaven. Some will be first and some will be last. Some will sit at the head of the table and some at the foot (me, I'll be the door man at the pearly gates)

Christians believe that Jesus paid the penalty for their fallibility, therefore don't have to stand before the "Judge" and account for their life, only for what they did after receiving their "pardon" (in other words how did they invest what they'd been given for the betterment of their fellow man). The three servants with the talents comes to mind.

Quite simply, the Christian God offers a clean fresh start while still living, or a second chance if you will. I see nothing arrogant about that. In fact it gives a rather hopeful feeling.

Hmmm ... I guess my hopeful feeling comes from believing that God is a God of equality, and with a level playing field. Thus, all are judged by one standard, not Christians by a different standard ... and the rest of us poor saps by yet another one.

I would suggest that perhaps you consider some accounts by folks who have had out-of-body - and more particulary, near-death - experiences, since quite a few of these experienced the whole bit about standing before one's Heavenly judge. The various accounts of Christians & non-Christians alike seem to agree, on such basics as the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel (though literally), meeting a figure of inconceivable or blinding brilliance, and often of experiencing a life review (something also confirmed in communications from those who have actually died, via mediums), as well as being "sent back" to the body to complete one's tasks in life. And usually, though not always, such experiences lead to a renewed sense of purpose, and a broadening of one's understanding, including the breaking down of feelings of separation from others - including all senses of superiority, relgious or otherwise.

Now as I say, non-Christians have these same experiences, and in fact, often seem more prone to provide an objective description of the various aspects of the encounter. Quite often, though not always, they will describe the figure of blinding light as being Christlike, due in part to the profound love that emanates from this being, and which is communicated to them and felt & known to extend to all beings. Also, this being (or type of being) doesn't harp upon religious deeds, or beliefs, or outer trappings. The type, quality, and amount of information communicated doesn't seem to depend on whether one has been a Christian, a Buddhist, or even religious at all ... although it may be easier for those with some kind of spiritual belief to interpret and benefit from such near-death experiences.

But as I say, it seems that, while descriptions do often make mention of a Christlike being, only the dyed-in-the-wool Christians seem insistent upon labeling their blindingly-brilliant, loving figure from the other side as Christ Himself, or Jesus. Others have no problem considering that it could have simply been, more objectively, a being of immense, all-embracing love & compassion, brilliant to the point of blinding with the Light of understanding and Wisdom. Tell me why the difference of interpretation? Is it because the Christian simply knows better, and has been able to identify his God, or the Son of God, in the next world (?) ... or do you suppose it might be that this is what s/he has been taught to believe, and what to expect, upon dying, upon "meeting one's maker," and upon entering into Heaven? Hmmm ....

If you are convinced that it simply must be Christ/Jesus/YHWH that these people are all meeting, or that the Christians are meeting Jesus and the others are encountering someone/something else, or that perhaps all of this is just hokey, or too uncertain to say much about ... (a copout, as it were) ... then might I recommend the books by Robert Monroe? Start with Journeys Out of the Body, and if you get to the end and want more, he wrote another, Far Journeys, I think, which continues the story. Ultimate Journeys goes even farther, but gets a bit into methodology for having one's own OOBE, and in that, I would recommend caution. Fools rush in ...

Still, before one hastily draws one's own conclusions and slams the door shut on the still, small voice of Truth whispering in one's ear ... perhaps consider the works of Howard Storm, who I believe approaches this subject from a Christian perspective, and remains quite Christian - not despite, but increasingly thanks to, his near-death experience. And why should he see things any other way?

I guess I just take it for granted (and seemingly obvious) that Christians need not be exclusive, or elitist, or in any way offensive. After all, if we find Truth & Wisdom in the Teachings and Life of the great Christian Master, then why should we not take these to heart, and practice as He showed us! And if it is Mohammad, or Sri Krishna, who shines out for us as the great example, then likewise. It is only when we, admitting it or denying it - are ourselves doubtful, fearful, and insecure ... that we adopt a smug & self-righteous attitude, and set out to convert the world - since only thus, can we avoid dealing with our own insecurities.

Christ certianly taught that we must know, and face ourselves ... and not seek to hide in the crowd, or go about seeking to remove the dust mote from our neighbors eyes. Too many planks still piled up right here in the living room, no place to sit. A deadly sin it is, I think, to leave our own house, and go abroad to judge others ... for by this same standard, and in the same measure, shall we be judged. And He did not say, "except for Christians." If anything, He might indicate - Especially those, who know the Way. For such, have a great responsibility.

Peace,

andrew

 

[Quahom1]

Hmmm ... I guess my hopeful feeling comes from believing that God is a God of equality, and with a level playing field. Thus, all are judged by one standard, not Christians by a different standard ... and the rest of us poor saps by yet another one. andrew

No, that is the precipise of the Christian faith. Be one level up or take your chances with the rest...

50/50 crap shoot, or have a leg up.

That is what makes Christianity different from all other faiths. Why would anyone want to take that away?

It's like Monopoly. Play the game, and every once in awhile someone gets a pass go card. Not that all players can't win, but some get an advantage. They pass "Go" plus get $200.00 . That really bothers non-Christians. "What makes you so special?" Answer: their acceptance of the Christ. Let me tell you, it makes all the difference in the world to those who accept that Christ like fellow...

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Q, I do take issue with this belief. The notion that a man or woman is pardoned from judgement due to their acceptance and belief that Jesus is Lord while others who have perhaps lived a very upright life will have to stand trial is too man made for me. It rings of human logic and reasoning. The man or woman that dedicates their life to good deeds and thoughts, whether or not they believe in Jesus should and will have eternal peace also. Personally i believe that one who acts and lives as Jesus did(which is what he preached) will have eternal life and rewards in heaven.

I think life is an enormous lesson that we all have to learn and we grow spiritually as a result. Many Christians think that their belief and acceptance of Jesus excludes them from many of life's lessons. And it is no wonder because the contemporary christian models his faith after Paul. Faith and faith alone is sufficient. Acts is the other side to this equation which Jesus preached and James continued after his death. I know that there are christians that practice good acts but they don't believe their acts have any impact on their eternity. I think they do. Loving action and compassion towards others, forgiveness, these are the keys and secrets to life and the hereafter.

Hi Didymus,

I truly understand your dilema. The concept of being a basically "good person" struck a nerve with me as well.

Then I dreamed...and I saw everything I'd ever done wrong. Didymus, I was so disgusted with myself, that I would judge me to death.

Half the time we underate ourselves and the other half is spent overrating ourselves. If left to the judicial pillars of man, not a one of us would survive...

We are our own worst judges, and God comes in the nick of time to save us from ourselves.

v/r

Q

 

[taijasi]

Quahom,

One is free, both in this great country of America, as well as here on planet Earth, to hold any religious belief one chooses. Sadly, many are persecuted who practice their faith openly, and thus an underground has always existed ... and actually, that has probably been more important in the long, sordid history of the world's religions - than what has been popular.

Remember, might does not make right, and in fact, it often ends up as nothing but oppression. The Romans feared the Essenes, because they did not understand their Secrets. And so the Catholic Church feared the Knights Templar, and assisted Philip le Bel in dissolving their (outer) Order. The Freemasons, likewise, have been persectured ... and the simple wiccan ways were misunderstood, during the Inquisition, and Salem Witch Trials.

Truth's Messengers are often, if not universally - persecuted ... and the Greatest of these, were usually crucified, whether in Roman times via Roman means, or in the style of the day, such as a simple stoning, or being dragged through streets.

My point? Things are a bit more complicated than they seem. It would be great ... if lip service was enough, or if those pure of heart were automatically delivered from the karma & dharma of service. Or would it? Would we continue to learn, to grow, to come into the fullness of Christ as St. Paul indicated? Wouldn't we, actually, begin to stagnate, and reach a plateau, where there was no additional progress?

Hmmm ... I do not question or doubt that after periods of activity, and labor, there is a need for rest, and for the reaping of the harvest. This is natural; thus the cycles run - on earth, as also in Heaven. As above, so below.

And therefore, after we strive, and hold to our Faith - in ourselves, in God, and in our fellow man - then it is only natural, that we experience expansions of awareness, resulting in greater understanding, and in a deepening of our relationship with the Divine. Yet s/he who mistakes this portion of the cycle for the end of effort, is destined to start the cycle afresh, at a later date - with a tabula rasa, as it were - since in no other way will such a person be able to profit.

And that is why it is not incorrect, in my experience & findings, to be able to say, I have discovered a portion of Truth, of the Wisdom, of the secret(s) of Life Eternal ... and as far as one has gone, be on the mark. But the true Saggitarian knows that only in Capricorn lies the gateway - and a New Beginning, on a higher turn of the spiral.

And there are Christian Saggitarians, and Christian Capricornians, such as the Master Himself. And thus, His open invitation to Enter In, stands. I trust that those who tarry amidst the fields of labor, having paused to survey the work at hand, or wipe the sweat from the brow, will soon take up the plow again, and make progress. Some may be overcome with fatigue, while others simply grow weary of the discipline & persistence that is required ... and they sit down, never to stand again for the rest of their days. But it is not ours to criticize, or judge, just as it is foolish to dispute the man who labors in the house of Scorpio, while one is working as an Aquarian, or Piscean.

If you can understand, then it should be clear. The Water of Life, poured out for thirsty men ... irrigates every field. One need not leave one's house, to drink from that Spring. And woe unto him who would deny his brother the much needed refreshment. Some of us, who sit, are yet keenly aware of the fact that (wo)men thirst, everywhere.

He who (already) sits at the Head of that table ... is He who is last to leave the field. The field ... is Service.

the apostate

 

[Quahom1]

Quahom,

One is free, both in this great country of America, as well as here on planet Earth, to hold any religious belief one chooses. Sadly, many are persecuted who practice their faith openly, and thus an underground has always existed ... and actually, that has probably been more important in the long, sordid history of the world's religions - than what has been popular.

Remember, might does not make right, and in fact, it often ends up as nothing but oppression. The Romans feared the Essenes, because they did not understand their Secrets. And so the Catholic Church feared the Knights Templar, and assisted Philip le Bel in dissolving their (outer) Order. The Freemasons, likewise, have been persectured ... and the simple wiccan ways were misunderstood, during the Inquisition, and Salem Witch Trials.

Truth's Messengers are often, if not universally - persecuted ... and the Greatest of these, were usually crucified, whether in Roman times via Roman means, or in the style of the day, such as a simple stoning, or being dragged through streets.

My point? Things are a bit more complicated than they seem. It would be great ... if lip service was enough, or if those pure of heart were automatically delivered from the karma & dharma of service. Or would it? Would we continue to learn, to grow, to come into the fullness of Christ as St. Paul indicated? Wouldn't we, actually, begin to stagnate, and reach a plateau, where there was no additional progress?

Hmmm ... I do not question or doubt that after periods of activity, and labor, there is a need for rest, and for the reaping of the harvest. This is natural; thus the cycles run - on earth, as also in Heaven. As above, so below.

And therefore, after we strive, and hold to our Faith - in ourselves, in God, and in our fellow man - then it is only natural, that we experience expansions of awareness, resulting in greater understanding, and in a deepening of our relationship with the Divine. Yet s/he who mistakes this portion of the cycle for the end of effort, is destined to start the cycle afresh, at a later date - with a tabula rasa, as it were - since in no other way will such a person be able to profit.

And that is why it is not incorrect, in my experience & findings, to be able to say, I have discovered a portion of Truth, of the Wisdom, of the secret(s) of Life Eternal ... and as far as one has gone, be on the mark. But the true Saggitarian knows that only in Capricorn lies the gateway - and a New Beginning, on a higher turn of the spiral.

And there are Christian Saggitarians, and Christian Capricornians, such as the Master Himself. And thus, His open invitation to Enter In, stands. I trust that those who tarry amidst the fields of labor, having paused to survey the work at hand, or wipe the sweat from the brow, will soon take up the plow again, and make progress. Some may be overcome with fatigue, while others simply grow weary of the discipline & persistence that is required ... and they sit down, never to stand again for the rest of their days. But it is not ours to criticize, or judge, just as it is foolish to dispute the man who labors in the house of Scorpio, while one is working as an Aquarian, or Piscean.

If you can understand, then it should be clear. The Water of Life, poured out for thirsty men ... irrigates every field. One need not leave one's house, to drink from that Spring. And woe unto him who would deny his brother the much needed refreshment. Some of us, who sit, are yet keenly aware of the fact that (wo)men thirst, everywhere.

He who (already) sits at the Head of that table ... is He who is last to leave the field. The field ... is Service.

the apostate

I am Picese, and my spouse is Cancer. I am Catholic and my spouse is Wiccan. I think I understand much more than given credit for...and some fields do not perk water very well (sorry the engineer in me).

Whoa to him who deliberatly places a stumbling block before his brother, as well...

but blessed is he who tells it like it is...

v/r

Q

 

[taijasi]

Quahom,

... nuff said. If your spouse is Wiccan, and you're okay with the idea that God judges her differently, then I have to wonder how that sits with her. Still, that's between the two of you!

I did not mean to imply that you hold up the work of the Aquarian Christ ... just that anyone does so who fosters separativeness or elitism. Have I presented a stumbling block? If so, pray tell me how (or see below).

Telling it like it is - is impossible. Our very best approximation, will nevertheless shatter the Dharma before we've even opened our mouth, or moved a hand. Even the Buddha, or the Christ, knew that ... and as Lao Tse put it, "The Tao that can be named, is not the Eternal Tao."

Yet consider this, the words of one who does not himself embody the Truth he preaches, however truthful, are empty of any real meaning. And thus, while I consider your statements about being "one level up" as a Christian as the height of ludicrousness, and completely in error, they may nonetheless "ring true" (esoterically) far more so than my own. Sad, imo, yet - true.

Fortunately, those who know better, already understand this ... and they also know that God reads the intention(s), and the effort(s), written within the heart ... not simply what rises to the surface, important as that may also be. This is how I know that what I say is true, even if not lent the fullness of the Wisdom it echoes (since I do not embody this Wisdom, at present). And it is how I know you well enough, even as some of the things you say do surprise me! Intruigued, might be a better word. Anyway, all this is way off topic ...

cheers,

andrew

 

[Quahom1]

Quahom,

... nuff said. If your spouse is Wiccan, and you're okay with the idea that God judges her differently, then I have to wonder how that sits with her. Still, that's between the two of you!

I did not mean to imply that you hold up the work of the Aquarian Christ ... just that anyone does so who fosters separativeness or elitism. Have I presented a stumbling block? If so, pray tell me how (or see below).

Telling it like it is - is impossible. Our very best approximation, will nevertheless shatter the Dharma before we've even opened our mouth, or moved a hand. Even the Buddha, or the Christ, knew that ... and as Lao Tse put it, "The Tao that can be named, is not the Eternal Tao."

Yet consider this, the words of one who does not himself embody the Truth he preaches, however truthful, are empty of any real meaning. And thus, while I consider your statements about being "one level up" as a Christian as the height of ludicrousness, and completely in error, they may nonetheless "ring true" (esoterically) far more so than my own. Sad, imo, yet - true.

Fortunately, those who know better, already understand this ... and they also know that God reads the intention(s), and the effort(s), written within the heart ... not simply what rises to the surface, important as that may also be. This is how I know that what I say is true, even if not lent the fullness of the Wisdom it echoes (since I do not embody this Wisdom, at present). And it is how I know you well enough, even as some of the things you say do surprise me! Intruigued, might be a better word. Anyway, all this is way off topic ...

cheers,

andrew

You know nothing about me. And you are a very rude individual. I do understand arrogance, and you take the cake sir/ma'am.

In my opinion you are short sighted about what you think you know (that and a buck fifty will get me a cup of coffee).

Nice going.

 

[taijasi]

Quahom,

Recommendation: Next time, try posting while sober. You'll come across friendlier, and it will make more sense.

Arrogant? Well now, ain't that the POT callin' the kettle black.

Short-sighted? Hmmmm. You're the one worshipping in front of the tree upon which you've carved, "I'm right, you're wrong." A thousand trees in this beautiful forest, and yours ain't no different than anyone else's. Get over it.

-A

 

[taijasi]

Yet consider this, the words of one who does not himself embody the Truth he preaches, however truthful, are empty of any real meaning. And thus, while I consider your statements about being "one level up" as a Christian as the height of ludicrousness, and completely in error, they may nonetheless "ring true" (esoterically) far more so than my own. Sad, imo, yet - true.

By the way, Q, in this first sentence I was referring to myself, and not you ... perhaps, since I didn't make this clear, you thought I was calling you a hypocrite. Just the reverse. But I think in this case, I was sufficiently vague ...

-A

 

[didymus]

Hi Didymus,

I truly understand your dilema. The concept of being a basically "good person" struck a nerve with me as well.

Then I dreamed...and I saw everything I'd ever done wrong. Didymus, I was so disgusted with myself, that I would judge me to death.

Half the time we underate ourselves and the other half is spent overrating ourselves. If left to the judicial pillars of man, not a one of us would survive...

We are our own worst judges, and God comes in the nick of time to save us from ourselves.

v/r

Q

Q- I too have judged myself in the past and still do on occasion. I am still working on that. I don't think that this is a dilemma though. I truly feel that I will go to a better place when I die regardless of what I believe. I also feel i'm in a far better place than i was when i was Christian. I proclaimed my belief in Christ years ago. I chose to believe he was God Himself and no mere mortal. Even after this acceptance I still judged myself. There was no inner transformation as a result of this belief. I found my Christian days to be bitter sweet. There was a sense of safety and assurance in believing what the majority believed and at times I was almost comfortable with the notion that I was on the right side and others on the wrong one. Hey, at least I knew where I was going. Right? The world became very black and white to me, us and them. When I viewed humanity and society through this lens, I was better, I was the chosen one. God was blessing me and it wasn't my job to figure out why billions would be relegated to the gates of hell. I was told they had a choice too. They chose to be good people and practice their faith or maybe had no faith but just wanted to be good people. I was told that was not good enough either. Those poor folks were misinformed and could expect the fiery pit also unless they accepted Jesus.Then I managed to transcend this fear and judgement of anything non-christian (God put people in my path). I actually read a book that challenged christianity. My goodness, and I was scared to death to do this.Literally scared to death. I said to myself, if God loves me and my faith is strong I should be able to read this without fear of punishment from my maker. By golly I did it and I actually felt pretty good about it. I read more books and more books and found out that these folks writing were actually good people that believed in God, just not the Christian version of It. I can't make you see what I see but I think I know pretty much where you're at. Maybe I'm wrong though. Do you think your wife will go to hell for being Wiccan? Do you actually believe that an incredible life force, creator of all, including us would hold such a man made thought. This is such a human notion that it is hard not to see it as such when you move away from it. It is fear based not love based. If you do this you'll be rewarded if not, well you go to hell.

 

[Dondi]

Q- I too have judged myself in the past and still do on occasion. I am still working on that. I don't think that this is a dilemma though. I truly feel that I will go to a better place when I die regardless of what I believe. I also feel i'm in a far better place than i was when i was Christian. I proclaimed my belief in Christ years ago. I chose to believe he was God Himself and no mere mortal. Even after this acceptance I still judged myself. There was no inner transformation as a result of this belief. I found my Christian days to be bitter sweet. There was a sense of safety and assurance in believing what the majority believed and at times I was almost comfortable with the notion that I was on the right side and others on the wrong one. Hey, at least I knew where I was going. Right? The world became very black and white to me, us and them. When I viewed humanity and society through this lens, I was better, I was the chosen one. God was blessing me and it wasn't my job to figure out why billions would be relegated to the gates of hell. I was told they had a choice too. They chose to be good people and practice their faith or maybe had no faith but just wanted to be good people. I was told that was not good enough either. Those poor folks were misinformed and could expect the fiery pit also unless they accepted Jesus.Then I managed to transcend this fear and judgement of anything non-christian (God put people in my path). I actually read a book that challenged christianity. My goodness, and I was scared to death to do this.Literally scared to death. I said to myself, if God loves me and my faith is strong I should be able to read this without fear of punishment from my maker. By golly I did it and I actually felt pretty good about it. I read more books and more books and found out that these folks writing were actually good people that believed in God, just not the Christian version of It. I can't make you see what I see but I think I know pretty much where you're at. Maybe I'm wrong though. Do you think your wife will go to hell for being Wiccan? Do you actually believe that an incredible life force, creator of all, including us would hold such a man made thought. This is such a human notion that it is hard not to see it as such when you move away from it. It is fear based not love based. If you do this you'll be rewarded if not, well you go to hell.

didymus,

In reading several ofyour posts, I find the you and I are on simular spiritual paths. I, too, have reservations about Christianity being the only path, having been a Christian (still am, just a different sort). What book was it that you read?

Also, what do you consider yourself to be now? Or where is you path leading you?

 

[didymus]

didymus,

In reading several ofyour posts, I find the you and I are on simular spiritual paths. I, too, have reservations about Christianity being the only path, having been a Christian (still am, just a different sort). What book was it that you read?

Also, what do you consider yourself to be now? Or where is you path leading you?

Hey Dondi, It's hard to say how I consider myself nowadays. I carried with me some aspects of Christianity that fit for me, namely forgiveness. At times when I pray I still ask Jesus for help. I don't know if this is old habit or what but I'm not ahamed of it nor do I question it too much either. I don't believe Jesus is or was God any more than we all are. After all, didn't Jesus say, "these things and more you will do yourself". I don't know where that quote is but its in the Bible somewhere.One of the first books that changed my life was, Sermon on the Mount by Emmit Fox. Another was The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. There are countless others too.I find my path to be leading to the inner voice that I have had since a child. The voice had become so muffled through life that it was just about mute, or maybe my ears needed cleaning. God is taking me on a direct detour to my heart. When quiet enough and attentive there is a tremendous intuition and wisdom that comes from this place. I don't claim that I am my own best teacher nor is my hearing always 100% but it is becoming clearer as I go.

 

[Dondi]

Hey Dondi, It's hard to say how I consider myself nowadays. I carried with me some aspects of Christianity that fit for me, namely forgiveness. At times when I pray I still ask Jesus for help. I don't know if this is old habit or what but I'm not ahamed of it nor do I question it too much either. I don't believe Jesus is or was God any more than we all are. After all, didn't Jesus say, "these things and more you will do yourself". I don't know where that quote is but its in the Bible somewhere.One of the first books that changed my life was, Sermon on the Mount by Emmit Fox. Another was The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. There are countless others too.I find my path to be leading to the inner voice that I have had since a child. The voice had become so muffled through life that it was just about mute, or maybe my ears needed cleaning. God is taking me on a direct detour to my heart. When quiet enough and attentive there is a tremendous intuition and wisdom that comes from this place. I don't claim that I am my own best teacher nor is my hearing always 100% but it is becoming clearer as I go.

Thanks for sharing that, didymus. I would like to repond, but I am pressed for time at the moment (I'm having a busy three day Presidents day weekend). I'll get back to you on this manana.

 

[Quahom1]

Quahom,

... nuff said. If your spouse is Wiccan, and you're okay with the idea that God judges her differently, then I have to wonder how that sits with her. Still, that's between the two of you!

I did not mean to imply that you hold up the work of the Aquarian Christ ... just that anyone does so who fosters separativeness or elitism. Have I presented a stumbling block? If so, pray tell me how (or see below).

Telling it like it is - is impossible. Our very best approximation, will nevertheless shatter the Dharma before we've even opened our mouth, or moved a hand. Even the Buddha, or the Christ, knew that ... and as Lao Tse put it, "The Tao that can be named, is not the Eternal Tao."

Yet consider this, the words of one who does not himself embody the Truth he preaches, however truthful, are empty of any real meaning. And thus, while I consider your statements about being "one level up" as a Christian as the height of ludicrousness, and completely in error, they may nonetheless "ring true" (esoterically) far more so than my own. Sad, imo, yet - true.

Fortunately, those who know better, already understand this ... and they also know that God reads the intention(s), and the effort(s), written within the heart ... not simply what rises to the surface, important as that may also be. This is how I know that what I say is true, even if not lent the fullness of the Wisdom it echoes (since I do not embody this Wisdom, at present). And it is how I know you well enough, even as some of the things you say do surprise me! Intruigued, might be a better word. Anyway, all this is way off topic ...

cheers,

andrew

I suppose I am the antithisis of the quintecential. I am secure in my own faith to remain rooted, and secure enough to allow my spouse to follow her own path to "enlightenment". In short if I am the tree, she is the wind in my branches, or the bird of wing that nests there. Free to fly as she wishes, but has a stable home to nest in.

So, in short diametrically opposed concepts can co-exist, even in the same house. They can even flourish. Perhaps because they are not so opposed after all...

Perhaps you would do well to read a bit of Orson Scot Card's work (The seventh Son comes to mind...)".

And if you knew your Christianity better, you'd have realized that the wife is sanctified through the believing husband...and wise is the man who does not fettle his wife needlessly.

I'm not Peter the pumpkin eater, and I do not need to keep my spouse in a shell.

I think (I'm not sure), that that is the beginnings of "enlightenment", and acceptance of others as they are (not how we want them to be), is a good start in this race. Which makes me wonder, if I'm not ahead of you...

Q

 

[taijasi]

Q,

I'm not in a hurry. But at any rate, I fully expect - to be last.

Anyway, thanks for sharing regarding the spiritual path mutually trodden by you and your wife. Very inspiring, actually.

Agreed, that if we cannot accept others as they are, we have much work to do!

Regards,

andrew

 

[Quahom1]

Q,

I'm not in a hurry. But at any rate, I fully expect - to be last.

Anyway, thanks for sharing regarding the spiritual path mutually trodden by you and your wife. Very inspiring, actually.

Agreed, that if we cannot accept others as they are, we have much work to do!

Regards,

andrew

Hmm.

 

[soulatom]

There is a fifth form of energy...scientifically acknowledged but not quite understood.

v/r

Q

I am thinking about Love as the invisible force that holds the other four known forces int he universe together, I guess that would be the Fifth Element for me.....ah other than Corbin Dallas' girlfriend, Lilu.....in the flick, of the same name ....can you help out here. s/a

 

[Quahom1]

I am thinking about Love as the invisible force that holds the other four known forces int he universe together, I guess that would be the Fifth Element for me.....ah other than Corbin Dallas' girlfriend, Lilu.....in the flick, of the same name ....can you help out here. s/a

Well, I'd not thought of "love" as an elemental form of energy...

Plasma.

 

[Dondi]

Hey Dondi, It's hard to say how I consider myself nowadays. I carried with me some aspects of Christianity that fit for me, namely forgiveness. At times when I pray I still ask Jesus for help. I don't know if this is old habit or what but I'm not ahamed of it nor do I question it too much either. I don't believe Jesus is or was God any more than we all are. After all, didn't Jesus say, "these things and more you will do yourself". I don't know where that quote is but its in the Bible somewhere.One of the first books that changed my life was, Sermon on the Mount by Emmit Fox. Another was The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. There are countless others too.I find my path to be leading to the inner voice that I have had since a child. The voice had become so muffled through life that it was just about mute, or maybe my ears needed cleaning. God is taking me on a direct detour to my heart. When quiet enough and attentive there is a tremendous intuition and wisdom that comes from this place. I don't claim that I am my own best teacher nor is my hearing always 100% but it is becoming clearer as I go.

didymus,

I think Jesus was the ultimate ideal in what God intends for us humans to be. that His example is what we must shoot for is we are to experience the fullness of the Divine in our lives. This is not to say that someone in another religion is excluded if they are not a Christian, but that this ultimate ideal is the goal for anyone regardless of religious affiliation. Now whether Jesus was Divine is relevant in that God invested everything in Christ to communicate this ultimate ideal, specifically, God's Eternal Love. Jesus is God's Love in action. Jesus demostrated that we must operate within God's Spirit in order to accomplish the things He accomplished. You will recall that Jesus didn't begin His ministry until after He was baptized and the Spirit of God came down upon Him as symbolized in the Dove. Forgiveness is bound in the ability or willingness, I should say, for us to forgive others.

The bible is replete with scripture indicating we can partake in the divine nature. Whether or not you believe Jesus was God, at least in that respect, the fullness of God was within Him. If we are going to be as Jesus was, partaking of this divine nature, then perhaps we can become part of God and experience that fulness as well. by viewing Jesus as the ultimate example of the Divine in Humans, then we can see how He is the way, the truth, and the life, that no one can come to the Father, except through Him, that is the ultimate example he gave us. I don't know if this means that we actually "become" God, for I think that we will have to let go our ego's and let God "be" in our lives, subject to Him, for He is infinitely wiser and more intelligent than us. (Lucifer's mistake, if there is indeed a Devil, is letting his ego get the best of him, and thus forming his own will, not subject to God ).

Anyway, my point is that I've decided to stop trying harbor an "us against them" attitude in my beliefs (having been a born-again Baptist) and allow myself to see that salvation is beyond the mere profession of Christ, though that's a good start, but that there is so much more we need to learn about the Love of God and to see the POTENTIAL in others who seek the ultimate no matter what understanding others outside my understanding may have about God. The Kingdom of God is within all of us.

I look forward to looking into those books you mentioned, didymus, though I am cautious in what I read concerning Gnostic scriptures. perhaps because of my bias to them up to this point. But it is prudent to hold fast to that which is good.

 

[MagnetMan]

Well, I'd not thought of "love" as an elemental form of energy...

Plasma.

God is Love. The most elemental force that can be. There is an irresistable attraction pulling all atoms back to the Source of Being. That force is greater than all the other known forces. All of us have experienced how powerful emotive forces can be. They can overcome reason, and even physical limitations. Millions of people through the Ages have personally experienced the supernatural power of this Divine attraction. Until we factor that charismatic force into the nuclear equation, scientists will flounder in their effort to understand what the missing unification element is. Superficial logic has to be suspended here, and Faith must be the guide.{Blessed are they who have not seen, yet believe.} As the outward thrust that was initiated by the Big Bang slows,(God's outward breath) the attractive force of Love will pull the universe back into a singularity again.
Salaam Brother