taijasi said:
God has already sorted it out ... for those who believe the Bible.
Other people's behaviour is none of my business ... until they make it my business ... eg, they want to rewrite the doctrine of my church.
homosexuality
- Thread starter kenod
- Start date
God has already sorted it out ... for those who believe the Bible.
Other people's behaviour is none of my business ... until they make it my business ... eg, they want to rewrite the doctrine of my church.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
If "Love thy neighbor" isn't part of that doctrine, then yes, after the fashion of the Christ, I'd like to re-write it. Which part of Love thy neighbor is the challenging part?kenod said:
andrew
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Well now, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? It's only why we're all here! You know, 42 - the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything!kenod said:
For starters, I think it means acceptance of other people wherever and however they are. This requires understanding them, and herein lies the failure in 95% of human relationships, of any sort. Either lack of desire for mutual understanding, or misunderstandings that arise from miscommunication, or lack of communication.
Agape love means being willing, ready and able to go the extra mile for someone ... whatever that might entail. In terms of attending church, and worshipping God together, this means setting aside our differences the moment we walk through the doors.
The bottom line is - that many people are just uncomfortable with the idea of two men, sitting there on the pew next to them, holding hands like a heterosexual couple. Honestly, this makes me a bit uncomfortable too! But agape love, the unconditional Love which Christ demonstrated for us, means being able to set aside our personal feelings, likes & dislikes, political or other affiliations. It means acknowledging that in the sight of the Lord our God, all people are equal. If we have forgotten that, or never learned it ... then we have a lot left to learn about LOVE. And about being Christian.
A close friend of mine (recently deceased), gay for many years and then more comfortable as a bisexual, found acceptance and a WARM WELCOME in the Episcopal Church ... in Durham, NC. Here, in the middle of the Bible Belt of the southern US, he had a hard time finding a congregation, or a denomination, which actually practiced the agape love which they preached.
I have no doubt the Unitarian Universalists would have welcomed Michael with open hearts ... but he sought a somewhat more formalized worship service. When I attended his memorial service, at the Episcopal Church in downtown Durham, I knew that he had found the right place. He had spoken highly of the people there, and this was soon after the official announcement of the Episcopal Church regarding their stance on this issue.
I only hope that other churches, of ALL denominations, will follow suit.
Love and Light,
andrew
transparently so.kenod said:
taijasi said:
I have to come back to the question of approval - it has no bearing on love or acceptance. There are behaviours that I do not tolerate in my house (smoking, cursing, shoes on my rocker!!!). I have house rules - and my church has rules. Of course we all allow a bit of latitude, but we also have limits.
If you came to my church you would be expected to abide by certain conventions: not talking, appropriate clothing, etc. Two gay men holding hands would be politely and discreetly rebuked as contrary to our beliefs. When I was corrected for inappropriate behaviour in a Buddhist temple (my head was higher than Buddha's) I apologised and left.
Homosexuals do not make me feel uncomfortable at all ... I knew my best man at my wedding was gay - I chose him because he was a good friend.
Jesus did not teach an "anything goes" sort of love. In my opinion that isn't love at all - if we love our children we correct them ... patiently, gently, but firmly.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Hmmm ... I think this is the part where I say, To each his or her own.kenod said:
andrew
wil said:
Ive been meaning to address this question which was raised earlier in this thread.
The factors that influence human behaviour are very complex, and nowhere is this more evident than in sexual behaviour.
Three main influences impinge on the success of changing sexual orientation and /or behaviour:
1. History - the more habitual a behaviour has become, the more difficult it will be to change.
2. Motivation - a Christian man, married with children, is likely to be more motivated to change than a single man with no compelling belief system.
3. Sexuality - sexual orientation is not a matter of either-or … there is a continuum from exclusively heterosexual to exclusively homosexual, and where one is on that continuum will affect how easily change may be effected.
Very generally speaking, the outcome of conversion therapy falls into three groups?
1. Those who succeed in eliminating same sex behaviour and feelings.
2. Those who succeed in eliminating same sex behaviour, but not same sex feelings.
3. Those who are unable to make any significant change in feelings or behaviour.
It is impossible to answer the question: How many succeed? We must first ask (1) how many of whom - ie, what is the starting point? and (2) how does the individual define success?
For the Christian, success may be simply that they are able to function as a heterosexual man, and control their homosexual behaviour. After all, a Christian heterosexual is still subject to sexual temptation - we don’t expect to be delivered from all temptation, but rather, be given strength to overcome.
I am not advocating that this approach should be imposed on everyone. It is an option for those who feel they would like to make changes in their life because there is a conflict with their priorities.
Any human who truly seeks God's way, can overcome anything, can give up anything, can endure anything.
I know you have trouble with your family's decisions (I do too). But we pray, and love, and be the "Pop" that we can be. It's a bit harder when they are older, and our roles change...none the less, we are to be counselors, to the results of our love, even though they claim "adult" status, and independence...
God's speed.
Q
I know you have trouble with your family's decisions (I do too). But we pray, and love, and be the "Pop" that we can be. It's a bit harder when they are older, and our roles change...none the less, we are to be counselors, to the results of our love, even though they claim "adult" status, and independence...
God's speed.
Q
Quahom1 said:
That's the way I believe it, and that's the way the Bible teaches it as far as I can see:
1 Corinthians 6 (NIV)
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom ofheaven ; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23)
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
I think that's correct, Q. I just figure, why settle for a shiny bauble, if one is offered an entire Kingdom ... of riches.Quahom1 said:
Or was it, "all that glitters, is not gold?"
-A
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
'Tis between you and God, when it comes down to a personal level. There are, of course, guidelines. The Mosaic Law, updated by Christ in the Two Commandments. It is in the application of these, that our true worth is tested. Fortunately, we get more than ONE chance.kenod said:
And that's forgiveness. Not a license to sin, but rather, an opportunity to do better (or, greater Good). Our own demonstration of God's will may not yet reflect the perfection that it some day shall (vide Ephesians 4:13 and Hebrews 12:23). But this is no excuse not to TRY.
As the quaint little expression goes, if at first you don't succeed ...
Love and Light,
andrew
taijasi said:'Tis between you and God, when it comes down to a personal level. There are, of course, guidelines. The Mosaic Law, updated by Christ in the Two Commandments. It is in the application of these, that our true worth is tested. Fortunately, we get more than ONE chance.
andrew
How do you know what the two commandments mean ... in other words, how do you know what Jesus intended when He stated "Love God" and "Love your neighbour".
If the Bible is the source of the two commandments, then surely the Bible is the source of the explanation of what they mean, and how they are to be lived out.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
I know, Kenod, because God speaks to us within the heart. The Living Voice, therein, answers this question ... at least to my satisfaction. "Love my neighbor as my self" is not something I have a hard time understanding. Its application, on the other hand, can sometimes be challenging. And that's my point.kenod said:
Loving one's God, it turns out, is taken care of, if we will but do all that is in our power - to Love our neighbor.
Fail to do this, and we will fail in the first commandment. It is exactly as Neosnoia recently pointed out, in quoting that Great Soul, Mahatma Gandhi:
“If you do not see God in the next person you see, you need look no further.”
This is not the source. Nor was Moses. Nor the stone tablet. God gave us these instructions, to help us live in peace and harmony ... and draw closer to him.
And just as the Bible is not the authority, nor its human authors ... neither is a book - of ANY sort - the ultimate explantion or guide for us to live by. NOT IN HEAVEN, NOT ON EARTH. For God dwells and guides us, in both worlds, or states of being.
But people miss this. Don't they.
Jane Fonda might be "comely" to look at, but you know - Liberace's music, somewhere or another, could very well be more beautiful. Inasmuch, that will bring me closer to God, or lift my heart & mind closer to love. As long as I don't have to hear him speak.
Namaskar,
andrew
taijasi said:
So Jesus' instructions about sexual morality are something the Gospel writers just made up?
When Jesus agrees with you, He is right; and when Jesus disagrees with you, He is wrong ... or at least, the Gospel writers got it wrong?