M
mee
Guest
when i quoted bullinger and others, i was refering to the point that the NUMBER was litral in contrast to the great crowd without a NUMBER. as for the144,000 being SPIRITUAL Isrealites this is in harmany with the rest of the bible .juantoo3 said:
fleshly distinctions no longer count with God as is clear from Galatians 3:28, where we read: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus." And at Galatians 6:16 this composite body of believers, both Jews and non-Jews, is called the "Israel of God." dont worry i dont take things personally
i would like to add that the reason the JW walk away is more than likely because they can see that you dont want to change your beliefs ,so they go looking for other ones who do want to find out what JW beliefs are. we as JW are not going out to make up numbers of increase, we are only looking for those who would like to know more about what the bible teaches . if a person is happy in their beliefs we move on to find those who are signing and groaning about all of the bad things going on . it is a fact that detestable and God-dishonoring practices of false religion are a cause for sighing and groaning (Eze 9:4; but Jehovah is looking for people to worship him in the right way
Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.John 4;23-24 please dont think i am saying that your religion is God-dishonoring , but if you are happy in your beliefs JW will move on ........... but then again as i wasnt there at that time i cannot say for sure why they walked away.JW have only one thing to do in this time of the end, and that is to make known about the heavenly kingdom goverment that was set up and established in 1914 with Jesus as the king . that is what they are doing all over the world . and the remnent on the earth of the 144,000 have taken the lead in this preaching work . but now in this time of the end the great crowd from all nations is helping the spiritual Jews with this important work
.
M
mee
Guest
how come its posted twice . cant think what i did for that to happen ?
And best wishes, Juantoo3!
The comment re prayer was not a response to anything you had said, rather my own reflection.
Without doubt prayer is absolutely central to the life of the church, as it is to the life of man - there is nothing more sacred man can do than pray - it is the highest calling - but prayer is not solely what the Church is all about, or rather prayer within the life of the Church should be seen in the context of what the Church represents.
The Church is the place where God and the world meet - not God and the individual, for this meeting takes place in prayer, in private, and in a sense the individual flees the world into God, but the Church is not in flight from the world, but the visible presence and witness of God active in the world - a calling, a vocation, which finds its fullness in its liturgy. She stands in the world and withstands the world, at times admired, at times despised, often both in equal measure and this is the essential difference - this is what the church does that man cannot do - the Church is the enduring Testament of the Covenant between creature and creator. She is the Ark of the New Covenant, She is the material presence of the Mystical Body, She is the Bride.
As such there are certain charisms - Sacraments - given to the Church which belong to the Church and not to man. The function of these Sacraments is to bring all into Union with the Divine.
This is the reality of the 'unseen' aspect of the Church - it is not something 'other than' the visible church - but the central Mystery enacted in full view of the world, as was the Mystery of God's implacable and uncompromising love played out on Golgotha, a love which admits no limit other than the totality of kenosis - a total self-giving - a mystery re-enacted each time the Mass is Celebrated - the Mystery of the Eucharist - of which the Visible Church is the enduring presence and which is Hers alone to bestow.
These are fragmentary thoughts, Juantoo3, a work-in-progress as it were...
Thomas
The comment re prayer was not a response to anything you had said, rather my own reflection.
Without doubt prayer is absolutely central to the life of the church, as it is to the life of man - there is nothing more sacred man can do than pray - it is the highest calling - but prayer is not solely what the Church is all about, or rather prayer within the life of the Church should be seen in the context of what the Church represents.
The Church is the place where God and the world meet - not God and the individual, for this meeting takes place in prayer, in private, and in a sense the individual flees the world into God, but the Church is not in flight from the world, but the visible presence and witness of God active in the world - a calling, a vocation, which finds its fullness in its liturgy. She stands in the world and withstands the world, at times admired, at times despised, often both in equal measure and this is the essential difference - this is what the church does that man cannot do - the Church is the enduring Testament of the Covenant between creature and creator. She is the Ark of the New Covenant, She is the material presence of the Mystical Body, She is the Bride.
As such there are certain charisms - Sacraments - given to the Church which belong to the Church and not to man. The function of these Sacraments is to bring all into Union with the Divine.
This is the reality of the 'unseen' aspect of the Church - it is not something 'other than' the visible church - but the central Mystery enacted in full view of the world, as was the Mystery of God's implacable and uncompromising love played out on Golgotha, a love which admits no limit other than the totality of kenosis - a total self-giving - a mystery re-enacted each time the Mass is Celebrated - the Mystery of the Eucharist - of which the Visible Church is the enduring presence and which is Hers alone to bestow.
These are fragmentary thoughts, Juantoo3, a work-in-progress as it were...
Thomas
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Thomas!
It seems to me you have been a bit scarce of late, it is good to see you back.
Perhaps it is somewhat easier, at least for discussion, for a G-d "fearing" Christian to empathize, sympathize and commiserate with a G-d "fearing" Jew or Muslim, if they only try and allow the Spirit to do what Spirit is meant to do. What good there is in humans, is not limited to one particular faith. Indeed, pick any faith, and one is certain to find the antithesis of that faith masquerading as some among that faith. One cannot judge a barrel of apples by the one or two rotten ones on top...yet frequently we do that very thing.
G-d knows our hearts. Whether Jew or Greek, bond or free, wealthy or of low estate; G-d knows us all. Perhaps He will grant particular favor to some who find that specific path that pleases Him most, if such truly exists. Of course, every path makes that special claim, yet *only* one (if any) can be correct by such reasoning. Yet G-d made all as He wished them to be, and placed them where He wished them placed, and taught them as He wished them taught.
As long as they do the best they know how with what they are given, something tells me they will find grace and favour in the eyes of our Creator.
Sacraments, charisms and public institutions that stand "in the world but not of the world" are well and good, and have their place and role to play. But in the end, it is the individual that answers directly to G-d. I can think of only one exception...the teacher that teaches G-d's children incorrectly. They will answer for what they have taught others, and there is a special punishment that awaits them. (I forget chapter and verse, but that was one of my biggest eye-opening moments while reading the Bible).
Not implying that of you Thomas, I know you are sincere, as are many others here. That is all any of us can ask, is to be guided in sincerity.
It seems to me you have been a bit scarce of late, it is good to see you back.
I probably should find the time to read Joseph Campbell. I sense that prayer is an integral portion of probably every significant faith walk. Certainly of every faith walk that sincerely desires to commune with the Divine. I question whether prayer is limited to the Abrahamic faiths, but at least in that context it seems to me a remarkable similarity between them.Thomas said:
Granted, for the *Christian* Church. What of the significance of the equivalent in other faiths, even if only limited for the sake of discussion to the Abrahamic equivalents? Surely Judaism and Islam have their own "sacraments" and "charisms," even if not called by these specific names? Are there not central mysteries even in these?
Perhaps it is somewhat easier, at least for discussion, for a G-d "fearing" Christian to empathize, sympathize and commiserate with a G-d "fearing" Jew or Muslim, if they only try and allow the Spirit to do what Spirit is meant to do. What good there is in humans, is not limited to one particular faith. Indeed, pick any faith, and one is certain to find the antithesis of that faith masquerading as some among that faith. One cannot judge a barrel of apples by the one or two rotten ones on top...yet frequently we do that very thing.
G-d knows our hearts. Whether Jew or Greek, bond or free, wealthy or of low estate; G-d knows us all. Perhaps He will grant particular favor to some who find that specific path that pleases Him most, if such truly exists. Of course, every path makes that special claim, yet *only* one (if any) can be correct by such reasoning. Yet G-d made all as He wished them to be, and placed them where He wished them placed, and taught them as He wished them taught.
As long as they do the best they know how with what they are given, something tells me they will find grace and favour in the eyes of our Creator.
Sacraments, charisms and public institutions that stand "in the world but not of the world" are well and good, and have their place and role to play. But in the end, it is the individual that answers directly to G-d. I can think of only one exception...the teacher that teaches G-d's children incorrectly. They will answer for what they have taught others, and there is a special punishment that awaits them. (I forget chapter and verse, but that was one of my biggest eye-opening moments while reading the Bible).
Not implying that of you Thomas, I know you are sincere, as are many others here. That is all any of us can ask, is to be guided in sincerity.
And good thoughts they are, Thomas! I know you will continue as best you understand to do and be the best you know how. What more can any of us dare to hope?
M
mee
Guest
The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the "great crowd," also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who "were bought from among mankind as firstfruits." (Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression "firstfruits" refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a "little flock." (Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.
I did want to address the original question posed by Shadowman:
If we assume, and I think it is safe to do so, that the residents of heaven are the virtuous and pure of spirit, an assumption based on the witness of every spiritual tradition, then we can address the question from that perspective.
Let's look at the Spiritual Virtues (and their opposites - the Deadly Sins):
Chastity (Lust)
Abstinence (Gluttony)
Liberality (Greed)
Diligence (Sloth)
Patience (Wrath)
Kindness (Envy)
Humility (Pride)
The 'uniting factor' of the seven is Restraint, or, as perhaps better understood, Detachment. Meister Eckhart, for example, considered Detachment as the prince of virtues. However this can lead to the assumption that such detachment implies disinterest or apathy, which is itself, under another guise, the Sin of Sloth.
So it is useful to consider the virtues as active, rather than passive:
Chastity - the practice of Valour (in the sense of fidelity and integrity in the face of the world)
Abstinence - the practice of Vigilance
Liberality — the practice of Generosity
Diligence — the practice of Ethics
Patience — the practice of Peace
Kindness — the practice of Charity
Humility — the practice of Modesty
The Cardinal Virtues are:
Prudence, Justice, Temperance, and Fortitude
The Theological Virtues are:
Faith, Hope, and Love
So I would suggest that whatever the response of the Heavenly Host might be, it will be virtuous, and in no sense tainted with the intemperate passions of the fallen human will.
I suggest those in Heaven feel nothing but a love for those in hell, that they hope for their eventual restoration, and have faith in a God in whom all things are possible.
My closing calls to mind a passage from the "Shewings" of Dame Julian of Norwich (1342-1416):
"Ah, good Lord, how could all things be well,
because of the great harm which has come through sin to your creatures?
And so our good Lord answered
all the questions and doubts which I could raise,
saying most comfortingly:
I make all things well,
and I can make all things well,
and I shall make all things well,
and I will make all things well;
and you will see for yourself
that every kind of thing will be well.
...And in these words God wishes us
to be enclosed in rest and peace."
Amen.
Thomas
If we assume, and I think it is safe to do so, that the residents of heaven are the virtuous and pure of spirit, an assumption based on the witness of every spiritual tradition, then we can address the question from that perspective.
Let's look at the Spiritual Virtues (and their opposites - the Deadly Sins):
Chastity (Lust)
Abstinence (Gluttony)
Liberality (Greed)
Diligence (Sloth)
Patience (Wrath)
Kindness (Envy)
Humility (Pride)
The 'uniting factor' of the seven is Restraint, or, as perhaps better understood, Detachment. Meister Eckhart, for example, considered Detachment as the prince of virtues. However this can lead to the assumption that such detachment implies disinterest or apathy, which is itself, under another guise, the Sin of Sloth.
So it is useful to consider the virtues as active, rather than passive:
Chastity - the practice of Valour (in the sense of fidelity and integrity in the face of the world)
Abstinence - the practice of Vigilance
Liberality — the practice of Generosity
Diligence — the practice of Ethics
Patience — the practice of Peace
Kindness — the practice of Charity
Humility — the practice of Modesty
The Cardinal Virtues are:
Prudence, Justice, Temperance, and Fortitude
The Theological Virtues are:
Faith, Hope, and Love
So I would suggest that whatever the response of the Heavenly Host might be, it will be virtuous, and in no sense tainted with the intemperate passions of the fallen human will.
I suggest those in Heaven feel nothing but a love for those in hell, that they hope for their eventual restoration, and have faith in a God in whom all things are possible.
My closing calls to mind a passage from the "Shewings" of Dame Julian of Norwich (1342-1416):
"Ah, good Lord, how could all things be well,
because of the great harm which has come through sin to your creatures?
And so our good Lord answered
all the questions and doubts which I could raise,
saying most comfortingly:
I make all things well,
and I can make all things well,
and I shall make all things well,
and I will make all things well;
and you will see for yourself
that every kind of thing will be well.
...And in these words God wishes us
to be enclosed in rest and peace."
Amen.
Thomas
M
mee
Guest
unless i missed it ,they would also be spiritually clean regards their worship to God .they would not be tainted by false worship .they would not be unfaithful to God .Thomas said:
because they want to serve Jehovah, they have not held on to any of the teachings or customs of false religion. they have got out of false religion and have not supported it in any way.
mee said:
Two things:
1. The bible mentions nothing of the spiritual purity prior or post their being chosen.
2. The fact that they are human, precludes any spiritual cleanliness prior to accepting Jesus or wanting to serve Jehovah, because they still have the taint of original sin from their birth, regardless of their desire to serve God. Because of original sin, the mark of man's unfaithfulness towards God is already upon them.
M
mee
Guest
Quahom1 said:
Spiritual cleanness,This could be considered the most important cleanness of all because it has to do with a person’s prospects for everlasting life. However, this is often the most neglected aspect of cleanness. Simply put, to be spiritually clean means never to cross the line that God has drawn between true worship and false, for God views any type of false worship as unclean.
God clearly demonstrated his disapproval of mixing false worship with his true worship. False worship often includes unclean practices and detestable idols and gods. (Jeremiah 32:35) Thus, true Christians are urged to shun any involvement with unclean worship.—1 Corinthians 10:20, 21; Revelation 18:4.
These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish. revelation 14;4-5 the bride of christ has to be pure in a spiritual way,they are spiritual virgins, when it mentions that they did not defile themselves with women,it is refering to women like Babylon the great(world empire of false religion) she is a great harlot and she has many daughters and very unclean in the eyes of Jehovah God and Jesus christ . but the bride of christ is well out of babylon the great REVELATION 18;4 and Jehovah God and Jesus christ have taken them in . so in a spiritual way they are clean .
pattimax
Somewhat returning
Originally Posted by Thomas
"So I would suggest that whatever the response of the Heavenly Host might be, it will be virtuous, and in no sense tainted with the intemperate passions of the fallen human will.
I suggest those in Heaven feel nothing but a love for those in hell, that they hope for their eventual restoration, and have faith in a God in whom all things are possible."
Beautiful thoughts ... let's hope so.
Quite literally after all, with God all things are possible.
"So I would suggest that whatever the response of the Heavenly Host might be, it will be virtuous, and in no sense tainted with the intemperate passions of the fallen human will.
I suggest those in Heaven feel nothing but a love for those in hell, that they hope for their eventual restoration, and have faith in a God in whom all things are possible."
Beautiful thoughts ... let's hope so.
Quite literally after all, with God all things are possible.
mee said:
I'm sorry. Your statement holds no merit, for you did not address the reality of the second point I made. No man is clean. Not even a virgin child at birth. There are no exceptions. One can not get away from original sin, unless one has accepted Jesus the Christ. That is what we are told and what we read in the Bible.
M
mee
Guest
we are all born with the sin that adam and eve passed on to us .........we die................ but we can all as individuals make the choice to be spiritually clean before our God ,we can stay away from worship that is unclean in his eyes .and yes we would also have to wash our robes in the blood of Jesus christ .recognizing the ransom sacrifice is the way to go . getting everlasting life back will only come through Jesus christ .he plays a very big part in Gods purpose.Quahom1 said:
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
China Cat Sunflower said:
Thats SDA teaching... Out of all the many times Christ spoke the words "verily I say unto you" never once did He add the word "today" There is also no punctuation in Greek.. I just thought I would point this out. I got sucked into SDA and this teaching among others caused me to stumble in my faith so I pretty much know them all.
Dor
Bible Thumper
mee said:
Are you sure the 144,000 “born again” Jehovah’s Witnesses are really in Heaven, since they died believing and teaching false doctrine, according to present-day Watchtower teachings?
M
mee
Guest
what false doctrine would that be..........?Dor said:
M
mee
Guest
the book of revelation is inspired of God,far from being false doctrine it is a revealer and an uncoverer in this time of the end .in fact it throws light on many bible propheciesQuahom1 said:
I'm being particularly predictable again Q, need another thread to elaborate?Quahom1 said:
Dor
Bible Thumper
mee said:
All the false dates and other missed prophecies which according to the Bible which you even quote make them false prophets.