Of course I agree (well I would wouldn't I
![Big Grin :D :D](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
) becaue I believe Jesus (pbuh) was a bringer of G-ds message but still only a human (sorry if that offends anyone). What I don't understand is why Jesus (pbuh) can be seen as a 'direct' relationship with G-d, why the middle man (please the forgive the term but I can't think of a better one)? G-d tells us in all the scriptures He is Most Merciful, Most Compassionate, Most Forgiving and of course our Creator, so why can't we have a direct relationship without requiring intercedence?
Forgive my ignorance of the Jewish scriptures but what do they say about our relationship with G-d? Is an intermediary required? (oh that's a better word than middleman
![Eek! :eek: :eek:](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
). Oh good explanation, thank you.
The tearing open of the curtain veiling the Holy of Holies in the Temple was a sign that God had been opened up for direct access. Only a sign, not the opening up itself. The opening up was spiritual not physical.
There seems to be a recurring issue that Jesus is somehow acting as "middleman" or "intercessor." I see him more as leader, guide and escort. Was Mohammed not a leader and guide? Jesus is leading, guiding and escorting me to God. I could just as well go and see God myself but I don't know how to find Him. I need someone with intimate knowledge of the terrain to give me directions and advice.
David, for example, had direct contact with God. Jesus wasn't around then. But not all of us have been as intimate with God as David. We don't know where to begin!!! There was also Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, the list goes on. Then there was Jesus. Jesus was like David, Abraham, Isaac and all those who came before him, but this guy came so that the rest of us could find God.
(Note: I think the word you were meaning to say was "intercession.")
Excuse the analogy but if I want to love my human father and want to please him I don't go to my brother and say "tell Dad I love him" and I also don't go to my Dad and say "you love my brother so please love me too". G-d tells us he loves us and as any father he is angry when we are naughty and pleased when we are good but he doesn't need anyone to tell Him who we are He knows us and therefore our heritage better than we know ourselves.
"Descendant" is more of a term I use in comparison to people descended from Abraham, as well as those following the same religions as his descendants. It's a bit of a metaphor, as well as an analogy.
There is, actually a difference between Abraham and Jesus in that, "Abraham's descendants" were not necessary like Abraham, nor did they necessarily live for the same purpose or have the same attitude to life. Some were descendants because they were related to him by blood.
"Spiritual descendants" of Jesus (Christians), I would say are supposed have the same beliefs, same attitude and live for the same purposes as Jesus did. Jesus, in particular, didn't believe people should be judged by rules, so ideally we wouldn't judge people by rules either. Jesus connected with people and made an effort to get to know them better so he could make himself valuable to them as a person. We could do that too. If we do some or all of these things, we might qualify as one of his "spiritual descendants." I don't believe there are any essential rules, or even a standard to which we must adhere. It's a matter of living with the same beliefs, attitudes and purpose as Jesus. It's the devotion and dedication to the cause that makes us Christian.
God accepted Jesus because of his beliefs and his attitude to life, not because of his achievements. It was his devotion and dedication that mattered. When we live with the same attitude, we are then, essentially like Jesus, and God can accept us for the same reasons as he accepted Jesus. God rewards people who make an effort at doing good, so obviously He used Jesus as an example. It's a lot like what Jesus says in Matthew 12:50 that, "whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, sister and mother." This is where a "descendant" could be seen as synonymous with "brother" or "sister."
This might be a really, really bizarre way of seeing things, but I see Christianity as a loosely interwoven "cloud" of concepts where there is no single way of understanding things. If one has enough background knowledge, it may be possible for a person to use these concepts to come up with a way of explaining things in Christianity without producing an idea that's "warped." This idea that I have works for me. Hopefully it's not seen as "warped."
See you have lost me again, sorry. You accept that your beliefs, thoughts, attitudes and actions are between you and G-d, so why the need to invoke any other name? I am not trying to insult or belittle the wonderful work and sacrifices Jesus (pbuh) made for mankind. This really is, in my humble view, the crux of the matter, is it not disrespectful to G-d to invoke any other name but His? Shouldn't our every thought in prayer just be about G-d?
Sorry for the confusion.
![Smile :) :)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
That was more about
politics/ideology than
theology. The above paragraphs were about theology. The last section was about politics and ideology. I was talking about what a Jew, Christian or Muslim's identity might mean in society. A Jew, Christian or Muslim might, from time to time, need to defend themselves against other adherents of the same religion and justify his/her beliefs and not be condemned for failure to conform. (If you scroll back up this aspect of the discussion might make a bit more sense . . .)
This is what distinguishes religions from cults. In a normal, healthy religion, people have an individual identity that they can defend, despite failure to conform. A cult is where conformity is mandatory and the individual's identity is disregarded. Devotion and dedication isn't enough. You must fit yourself into the same pattern somehow.
That was why I was saying it was sometimes good to choose to be Jewish, Christian or Muslim because
you want to be one, not because other people were making you do it. A matter of spontaneity.