What are the Differences between the Abrahamic Faiths?

[pattimax]

ok (hands up). I'm not here to start a temperal cold war.

and yes I did skip Kindergarten, and third grade too...

Well, you know that I would lose, hands down.

I also hope you know that was a joke. There is a book titled "Everything I know, I learned in kindergarten."You said,"Everythimg you know you learned on star trek." Sorry for any percieved testiness.

Karen

 

[Muslimwoman]

If there was a faith called oh, "Christlam", I'd probably sign up for it in a heart beat. Being the first, I'd have no bad habits to follow...

Now if it was called Jud-ist-lam I would be your first convert (as long as I didn’t have to say Jesus (pbuh) was the son of G-d but I love his teachings and would be happy to follow them). Don’t tell anyone but I have often wished someone would start just a faith, where we could rid ourselves of the politics and money grabbing and just love and worship G-d.

Muslimwoman, your statement reflects an opinion I have of Muhammad's Islam--that Muhammad has taught Muslims that Allah cannot be reached personally by each and every Muslim. They must rely on Muhammad only for their spiritual guidance. This means God for Muslims is the same as Muhammad's mind--any separate relationship is unthinkable. This of course will and has inevitably made Muhammad into a virtual idol as is his book and we see this idolization in the fury of Muslims when their idols, Muhammad and his Quran, are mocked by non-Muslims.

I half agree with you, I was seriously shocked/put out when I read that the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) had said Muslims must love him more than their mother or father to be a good Muslim. However, I choose to reject that he would ever have said this in such a literal sense. When you read about his life and the many times he stressed that he was just a man, with no special abilities, you see that he would not put himself forward in this way. The Prophet taught us that your mother always comes first and then your father. My belief (perhaps I am deluded?) is that the Prophet was teaching us to see our faith above our love for the material, including our families. For me this message is to follow the word of G-d and teachings of the Prophet before anything else, not to idolize the Prophet himself. This is just another example of man made idolatry, which I believe comes from the need to worship something we can envisage, something we understand. I accept fully that some Muslims have taken their love of the Prophet to the level of idolatry and I am delighted to report that I steadfastly refuse to follow this path. Of course, I love the Prophet and am so grateful for his teachings (life would have been so easy for him without being a Prophet) but he was only human and therefore not to be worshipped.

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

In Islam, God was the law-giver who passed on His Law to Mohammed, who gave the Law to the people -- in turn, playing out the role of God. So in Islam Mohammed was a Messenger. What if the Jesus in Christianity was an Actor?

No definitions here. Once again, no guarantees or warranties.

Hi Saltmeister

I always love reading your ideas, even if I don't always agree.

I could never accept that Jesus (pbuh) was an actor, it makes him sound false and I believe he was a real man, given special gifts by G-d but a man all the same.

In Islam we accept the special talents/gifts of Jesus (pbuh), we accept the virgin birth but deny completely the idea that Jesus (pbuh) was anything other than human. So let us explore, G-d created Adam (pbuh) and we all accept he was the first man but people do not claim him to be a son of G-d. Yet he had no mother or father, G-d simply created him. So why would anyone believe Jesus (pbuh), who had a human mother, was literally the son of G-d rather than a creation of G-d? I realise I am asking the wrong person but I would like to put that question out there.

I would really like to understand this one, so could a couple of other Christians give me their concepts on Father, Son and Holy Ghost please and answer the question about Adam & Jesus (pbut)?

 

[Tariki]

I have'nt read through this entire thread so this may have been mentioned before..........

I was glancing through a library book that concerned Avatars, or Incarnations of God, as this was understood within the various Faiths. At the very end was a quote from the Koran which I can only give from memory (Perhaps Muslimwoman can give us the definitive version?).......It went something like....

If God had wanted to he could have made all Faiths the same but chose not to. In the end all have to return to the One who made them, so in the meantime let each compete together in kindness. Upon their return God will explain the differences.

Anyway, whatever the actual wording, it seems like very good advice. And at the moment I am reading a novel concerning the "clash between the Christian West and the Islamic East, spiritual salvation, and the phenomenon of religion and of its power to incite war" (as the blurb goes!). One of the charactors, a Muslim, says "No man can wholly understand the word of God". Another replies..."So you told me at the time. Would that others knew it"

 

[Muslimwoman]

In this sense, "Father" in Christianity" could mean "master" as well as "provider." When I think of the word "Father," I actually think of a fountain of water rather than my Dad. Yes, that's right. I think of God, my Father, as a fountain of holiness, goodness and purity. It's the best metaphor I had in mind.

Master is certainly a better word for me to get my head around. However, if you accept the term Master then surely you must accept that we must supplicate to Him, worship Him, not try to be buddies with Him or comprehend Him?

The idea is not about comprehending God in entirety and totality. That obviously can't be done. The idea is God revealing what's important to us.

This goes to what I say Salmeister, G-d gives us what we need (rather than what we want), He knows everything so we must be thankful and humble before Him and we must accept that we are nothing in comparison and must work so hard just to be worthy of the things He gives us. To try to get to know G-d seems such an arrogant persuit to me.

It's like if God was a tall man, then God interacting with us on a personal level is God coming down to our level of understanding.

Do you know my conversations with you are helping me to understand why my hubby gets so angry when I make jokes about G-d. To me they are harmless words and G-d has a sense of humour but I suppose to my hubby it seems disrespectful? I understand you are using this metaphor to explain your ideas to me but I find this so often in Christianity, images of G-d on his thrown, flowing white beard, etc. Why can't people just accept that He is G-d and our silly little brains cannot begin to fathom an iota of Him. Really our relationship with G-d becomes so much easier when you accept this and stop trying to 'know' G-d.

But I believe it's possible if one sets up certain conditions that make such a connection possible, or rather, make us "more compatible" with God.

Saltmeister, we shall all be in the presence of G-d one day, we will be called to account for every sin we commit and we will be rewarded for every good deed we do. Why can't people just accept this is going to happen and spend our lives working hard to achieve G-d's pleasure rather than punishment? Why does anyone feel a need to know G-d in this life?

I dropped out of a prayer habit in the last years of high school. But I believe I prayed for the wrong reasons

We all do that at stages in our lives, we are by nature greedy and selfish and it is this we must fight. Do you know that Islam states the age of religious responsibility as 40 years old? I have no idea how old you are but I admit I am older then 40 and I find your whole mindset does change about then. You become more accepting, more patient and you begin to understand that life is bigger than you and your needs/desires.

You, being Muslim, might be more in tune with "the conditions" as I understand you pray five times a day. Whether it's something personal . . . hmmm . . . may be up to you. It's between you and God. You and God must have an understanding.

We do have 5 obligatory prayers a day but we are also accutely aware that our prayers will not be accepted if we do them out of habit. G-d knows what is in our hearts better than we do and He knows if we bow before Him to supplicate or if we do it to impress the neighbours.

My mother is now dead. But I believe my mother for what she said. I doubt whether she would have said that if she didn't believe it herself. So one of my personal endeavours is to seek to find out the truth of what she said. That's kind of where I'm heading now.

I am so happy to hear how much you respect your mother, even now she has passed away. I truly hope you find what you are seeking. May I ask a personal and rude question - ignore me if the answer is 'no you can't'. When you talk about finding a unity with G-d are you perhaps talking about finding an unquestioning belief in Him, the true knowledge in your heart that He exists and one day you will return to Him? I only ask because I felt like this for a long time, I felt that I believed but I had to accepted that I questioned. It was when I found Islam that I stopped questioning and truly accepted, so now I have no need to understand, know or find unity with G-d.

Picture this. Imagine if we all lived in one house. That would be unity. Now imagine if God Himself was the home. Home sweet home. We are all where we always wanted to be.

But we cannot achieve that in this life, we can only spend this lifetime working to be good enough to hopefully be given a place in G-d's home in the next life.

God spoke to some of them through dreams . . . But anyhow, I don't think God can only speak to us through our eyes and ears. What about putting thoughts in our minds?

These are the things that G-d placed there when we were born and we choose to follow those or not as we grow. It is the innate goodness G-d imbedded in all of us, however we have badness as well and we must choose our path every moment of every day. So if someone hears or dreams of G-d, in my opinion, they are just accepting what is already there, opening a door in their hearts and allowing G-d's messgae out.

Salaam

 

[Saltmeister]

Hi Muslimwoman,

I've had quite a few "turning points" during this discussion we've been having. I've been reflecting on what I've been saying in my posts and believe there might be something important to highlight first before I proceed further:

2) To try to get to know G-d seems such an arrogant persuit to me.

As a Christian I had, what I feel, was quite an arrogant relationship with G-d........it seems rather disrespectful to suggest you can have a personal relationship with G-d.........Are you just talking about the connection you feel with G-d during prayer?
.....................
OMG are you suggesting G-d speaks to Christians through prayer???? Will the whole Chrisitan world become Prophets? I swear I am not trying to misunderstand you but my brain is freaking at the moment.We cannot achieve that through prayer. Prophets were chosen by G-d, are you saying all Christians have been chosen by G-d for this special task, to recieve the word of G-d?

One of the points you brought up in the last post was a question where you asked whether I thought Christians were "closer to God." I've been thinking about this during the past day and I thought I might perhaps drop a "Disclaimer." I believe there was something I didn't make clear to you.

There is, of course, a difference between an "idealisation" and "reality." I am sure your imams have talked to you about "the Ideal" in Islam. I might recall seeing that word/phrase floating around somewhere. Christianity, I believe, also has a so-called "Ideal." When discussing differences between Islam and Christianity, I was talking about the difference between "the Islamic Dream" and "the Christian Dream," not the reality of either the Christian and Islamic worlds.

In reality, I don't believe Christians have really successfully found or connected properly with God.

But considering your most recent post, I believe I might have a bit more to say now and would like to expand on it further . . .

You were wondering if I thought you were being rude....Actually, I think it was me that was rude. I didn't explain that I was talking about Dreams rather than Reality and dived straight into talking about the Dreams.

 

[Saltmeister]

1) However, if you accept the term Master then surely you must accept that we must supplicate to Him, worship Him, not try to be buddies with Him or comprehend Him?

2) To try to get to know G-d seems such an arrogant persuit to me.

3) Really our relationship with G-d becomes so much easier when you accept this and stop trying to 'know' G-d.

4) Why does anyone feel a need to know G-d in this life?

Speaking of turning points, I believe there was something that hit me in your last post!!!! You and I are heading in completely opposite directions . . . I understand now why the idea of pursuing something personal with God might be seen as arrogant. But let me explain my thinking . . . It has more to do with something I see happening within Christianity (internal) than about Islam or not another religion outside of Christianity.

My ideas are a response and reaction to something I see happening within Christianity.

In all religions, there is often a traditional/conventional mindset and a more "free-thinker" mindset. Sometimes when I post something, I talk more about "idealisations" in Christianity than "reality." Other times I am practical.

If you're Christian, or have been Christian before, you might be familiar with this. During the past 2,000 years, Christianity has been dominated by a mindset that is now called the "traditional/conventional/classical" mindset. One of the things that dominates the modern "traditional/conventional/classical Christian mindset" is opposition to individual beliefs. I'm aware that I might be being a bit simplistic here, but a traditional/classical mindset often does not approve of individual Christian believers (particularly laypeople) choosing their own beliefs. The traditional/classical mindset often makes rules about what people have to believe. It dictates that everybody must have the same beliefs. The layperson must adhere to beliefs that the organisation/establishment/religious leader teaches. Anyone not having the same beliefs is seen as not true to the purpose of Christianity (as taught by the organisation/leader) and deemed as being "led astray."

This, I would say, is rather impersonal. The individual's ability to reason is disregarded. Personal feelings, personal beliefs, personal life experiences are not important. The religious leader, the one who has the knowledge, makes the rules. But even in liberal environments, and even extremely liberal ones, there is still something "impersonal" about the way Christianity is taught. You align yourself to some banner, some slogan, and belong to some group. That group, in turn, is led by someone with the knowledge, comes up with the ideas and makes the rules. Even in liberal environments, you always belong to some group.

In Christianity, there is no individual. Individuals are seen as selfish, arrogant and self-absorbed. Now we see a "similarity" between what I am talking about here and what you said about pursuit of a personal relationship with God being arrogant. In Christianity, individuals that pursue an individual agenda are seen as arrogant and selfish. In reality, every Christian is a slave, a slave to a group, a group mentality, an organisation, establishment or religious leader who comes up with the ideas, ideologies and paradigms. My fellow Christians may not agree with this, but I assert this as being quite true. We may not think of ourselves as slaves. But often we submit our identity to something we believe is greater than ourselves. Yet that entity to which we submit our identity is not God, nor even the Messiah chosen to lead us to God.

My "Christian Dream," the Dream that I see Christianity to be, and the Dream, parts of which I've been depicting and expressing in these forums (and which may not be part of the norm of Christian doctrine), is a personal reaction of mine to this form of slavery within Christianity. My concept of the Christian Dream is to see these Christian slaves freed and liberated. The enemy of Christianity that I see, is often not other religions, but within Christianity itself. The enemy of Christianity is our own religious leaders, our own organisations and establishments. The enemy is within. As Christians, we have given ourselves as slaves, slaves of a group mentality, an organisation or establishment.

To me, I see one solution. It is to embrace something personal. It is to seek God, to replace these impersonal, inhuman institutions with something better. Unity with God, therefore, is a way of achieving liberation. In the past, we saw these systems, these organisations and establishments as our provider. Now we see God as our provider. Christians seeking a personal relationship with God is a way of freeing ourselves from slavery.

I must apologise for not explaining this to you. I had a "personal agenda" that I kept to myself. I was exploring an idea that was at the back of my mind. The idea arose out of internal conflicts within Christianity. I saw this "Dream" as the solution. I suppose it's only now that I am talking to a Muslim, that my ideas/thoughts have come under closer scrutiny that what's in the back of my mind (in the subconscious) has come to the surface.

 

[Saltmeister]

1) However, if you accept the term Master then surely you must accept that we must supplicate to Him, worship Him, not try to be buddies with Him or comprehend Him?

5) When you talk about finding a unity with G-d are you perhaps talking about finding an unquestioning belief in Him, the true knowledge in your heart that He exists and one day you will return to Him?

I understand you are using this metaphor to explain your ideas to me but I find this so often in Christianity, images of G-d on his thrown, flowing white beard, etc. Why can't people just accept that He is G-d and our silly little brains cannot begin to fathom an iota of Him. Really our relationship with G-d becomes so much easier when you accept this and stop trying to 'know' G-d.

I think you might better understand my thinking with what I've just said. I could see God as my protector and defender.

But "buddy" isn't exactly the right word. I see God as like a "home" to return to.

Words often have limiting meanings. I may say God is my Father, but I don't mean a human father as in one with arms that He throws around me. I think of him as provider (and yes, a father is a provider). The metaphor I proposed for "provider" was a fountain of holiness, purity and goodness. Another provider metaphor is the home. God is my home. My goal is to find my way home. The relationship I have with God is like my relationship with my home. That's what I meant by unity. I am united with my home.

The "tall man" was really just a way of saying that God, as "Father" and "provider," sets conditions favourable and conducive to a personal relationship. It's rather like a home designed specially for me. If you then think globally, rather than locally, we could also say God is like a home designed for everyone.

But this, once again, is just the Christian Dream. You may not understand the Christian Dream if you don't understand the Christian Tragedy. It's the tragedy of us being enslaved by religious institutions.

But don't get me wrong here . . . ideas about God come from a pursuit of a relationship God. If one does not pursue a relationship with God, it may not be expedient to have concepts of God at all. The reason why I conceptualise God, and the reason why a Muslim may not conceptualise God, may be due to this difference in goals/aims/agendas.

We have a different Dream.

 

[Muslimwoman]

There is, of course, a difference between an "idealisation" and "reality." I am sure your imams have talked to you about "the Ideal" in Islam. I might recall seeing that word/phrase floating around somewhere. Christianity, I believe, also has a so-called "Ideal." When discussing differences between Islam and Christianity, I was talking about the difference between "the Islamic Dream" and "the Christian Dream," not the reality of either the Christian and Islamic worlds.

Hi Saltmeister

Thanks for the explanation, I was getting a bit worried for a while there. Now dreams of a pure religion is something I know all about. You are wrong about the attitude of the Imams, usually they take the attitude of “shutup, I will tell you what to believe” and of course reality doesn’t come close to the dream G-d offers us.

You and I are heading in completely opposite directions . . . I understand now why the idea of pursuing something personal with God might be seen as arrogant. But let me explain my thinking.

Isn’t that funny, I feel that we are heading in exactly the same direction, just via opposite routes.

I feel that we both stand on the edge of our respective religions and try to mentally find our ‘space’, where we feel comfortable and one with G-d. See now you’ve got me at it. I don’t mean at one with as in united with, I mean, to use a Christian phrase, “within the fold” of G-d. This is what I am trying to achieve and I find I cannot do that by following blindly where the scholars tell me to go. I must find my own way to G-d, not through rejection of my chosen faith but through my choices within that religion. I can choose to follow those that believe ‘free thinking’ is sinful but I reject that because if G-d wanted me to be a sheep I would have wool and go Bahhhh. G-d sent down His word for me to follow and He gave me free will and I believe expects me to use that free will to make the right choices and find Him. However, I feel, that I cannot find Him in this lifetime, I can only attempt to ensure I am on the right path in order for Him to accept me on Judgment Day.

In all religions, there is often a traditional/conventional mindset and a more "free-thinker" mindset. Sometimes when I post something, I talk more about "idealisations" in Christianity than "reality." Other times I am practical.

But is that not what G-d sent to us, the ideal? Perhaps I am completely deluded but I aim for the ideal, I see Islam in it’s pure sense and not the twisted corrupt version mankind has made it. Heavens above if I accepted the practical reality as my true faith I would be an atheist. That is not to say I deny the existence of the practical realities but I do not accept that as the truth of my faith. Do you understand what I mean?

If you're Christian, or have been Christian before, you might be familiar with this. During the past 2,000 years, Christianity has been dominated by a mindset that is now called the "traditional/conventional/classical" mindset. One of the things that dominates the modern "traditional/conventional/classical Christian mindset" is opposition to individual beliefs. I'm aware that I might be being a bit simplistic here, but a traditional/classical mindset often does not approve of individual Christian believers (particularly laypeople) choosing their own beliefs.

Hee, hee I am a Muslim you don’t need to tell me about this one, some schools of Islamic thought would count me as ‘outside Islam’, a sinner and misguided. I am told by traditional Muslims that my desire for ‘free thinking’ shows how the western views are corrupting me and I will burn in hell fire. It makes me so angry, you couldn’t get my hijab off me with a crowbar, I do not seek to drink alcohol or eat pork, I have no desire to commit adultery or allow the young people in my family to fornicate before marriage. Yet, because I want my G-d given right to pray in the mosque, I do not accept that the punishment for adulterers is to be stoned to death and I want the right to think for myself, I am therefore ‘misguided’. But of course free thinking removes power from those that seek to control.

This, I would say, is rather impersonal. The individual's ability to reason is disregarded. Personal feelings, personal beliefs, personal life experiences are not important. The religious leader, the one who has the knowledge, makes the rules. But even in liberal environments, and even extremely liberal ones, there is still something "impersonal" about the way Christianity is taught. You align yourself to some banner, some slogan, and belong to some group. That group, in turn, is led by someone with the knowledge, comes up with the ideas and makes the rules. Even in liberal environments, you always belong to some group.

I am really surprised that someone feels this way in another faith. It is a definite problem in Islam and quite frankly one of the reasons I left Christianity (did someone say out of the frying pan?). Perhaps I am just stubborn but I will not accept someone else’s ‘vision’ of G-d. I wonder if this is has come from modern times, from people becoming free to think for themselves? If we go back just a hundred years or so people ‘knew their place’, now we are free to make our own place in life. Perhaps religious leaders can see this and feel the need to keep us in mental line in order not to lose their power?

We may not think of ourselves as slaves. But often we submit our identity to something we believe is greater than ourselves. Yet that entity to which we submit our identity is not God, nor even the Messiah chosen to lead us to God.

Perhaps this is one area Christianity and Islam divides, as a Muslim I have no doubt that I am a slave of Allah and I am more than happy to be his slave. True, some have become slaves of the religious leaders, but Islam teaches us to be slaves to nothing but Allah. G-d does not see our skin colour, our wealth and our gender, this is why in mosques rich and poor men stand side by side, men of authority stand beside farmers and it humbles everyone, reminds us that we are no better than anyone else in G-d’s eyes. We are all slaves but only to G-d.

The enemy of Christianity that I see, is often not other religions, but within Christianity itself. The enemy of Christianity is our own religious leaders, our own organisations and establishments. The enemy is within. As Christians, we have given ourselves as slaves, slaves of a group mentality, an organisation or establishment.

This is also true for Islam but we must accept that we are slaves together, striving for the same thing. We may all be individuals and have differing ‘visions’ of G-d but we seek the same goal, so it is obvious that we will be drawn to people with similar ideals.

Christians seeking a personal relationship with God is a way of freeing ourselves from slavery.

From slavery to the church? I see things a little differently, the Muslims I choose to spend time with are like minded, we like to explore our faith from within but do not try to go beyond the bounds set by Allah in the Quran. We accept information from scholars when we feel it is in line with the Quran and I suppose the ideal of Islam, we reject anything we feel goes against the Quran or the spirit of Islam. However, we are a group, a group of slaves to G-d and we seek Allah together. We read the Quran together, not always agreeing on interpretations but always accepting each others views (oooh that’s a fib we have some great arguments but we do it with respect). To seek total individualism appears to be more than just ‘free thinking’ it seems to be for it’s own sake. If we are searching for the same goal is it not easier to do this together?

I must apologise for not explaining this to you. I had a "personal agenda" that I kept to myself.

Don’t apologise, explore away, it is what we are here for. I find my views developing by talking to people on here and find that by talking to others it actually solidifies my faith (or my dream of my faith).

 

[Muslimwoman]

But "buddy" isn't exactly the right word. I see God as like a "home" to return to.

Exactly, G-d is where we must all return to but we must earn that return in this life not persue that home now.

God is my home. My goal is to find my way home. The relationship I have with God is like my relationship with my home. That's what I meant by unity. I am united with my home.

This is definately where we differ. Yes G-d is our home and we must endeavour to be worthy to return there but for me I cannot imagine that home in this life, in my little human brain. My heart knows that G-d is perfect and perfection is beyond my understanding, I can only serve and lead the best life I can to be worthy of such a home. I must be the best person I am capable of being in order to be allowed to go to Allah in the next life, but even then I do not imagine unity with Him, only, insh'allah, having earned
the right to go on serving Him.

But this, once again, is just the Christian Dream. You may not understand the Christian Dream if you don't understand the Christian Tragedy. It's the tragedy of us being enslaved by religious institutions.

But this is why G-d gave you free will, He does not insist we all feel or think the same way, He only desires us to listen and obey, to work hard for Him and earn our home with Him. Do you think, like some of my brothers and sisters in Islam, that G-d would reject you because you do not speak a certain language or make the right movements or speak the right words in prayer? I personally don't believe He cares about such issues, He just wants our hearts to adore Him and our minds to be set on the right path to work toward Him. G-d knows us better than we know ourselves, He knows when we love and serve Him in any language, in any method of prayer.

But don't get me wrong here . . . ideas about God come from a pursuit of a relationship God. If one does not pursue a relationship with God, it may not be expedient to have concepts of God at all. The reason why I conceptualise God, and the reason why a Muslim may not conceptualise God, may be due to this difference in goals/aims/agendas.

I don't think it is due to different goals/aims/agenda's, for me it is simply a waste of time to try to conceptualise G-d, He is beyond our ability to conceptualise. If that is what makes you happy and love G-d then go for it, I just choose to accept I am not capable of such a vision and so I do not persue it.

Salaam

 

[Saltmeister]

Let's look at the "reasonableness" of Christianity.
.......................
Christianity transcends logic.

Trascends . . . in other words, it is not under, but above logic.

Star Trek. Yes I can relate to that. The Vulcans follow logic. Humans yield to their emotions.

With regards to Christianity, I believe the distinctions are similar.

Christianity could, ideally be driven by emotions, but contemporary, traditional and conventional Christianity dictates that truth is not by emotions, but by logic.

Reasonableness? Reasoning can be either logical . . . or emotional.

I believe Truth would come a lot easier for Christians if they trusted their call of nature (emotions). There would not be so many divisions and denominations in Christianity if we put our trust in our emotions. After all, these emotions are a part of God's creation. Why do we not put our trust in something God created? Emotions are more natural than logic. Think of a flower opening up in spring. Flowers don't follow rules. They just do what they do. A call of nature. Schisms come from differences in logic, and logic attempts to thrust and shoehorn everything into some kind of structural framework.

Rather than putting our trust in something God-made (our emotions), we put our trust in something man-made (logic).

I wonder. Why is that? Why are we so cynical and suspicious of our own emotions and feelings?

 

[InLove]

Hi Muslimwoman and Saltmeister

Salaam--

This is going to be an incomplete post. I have so many more thoughts to contribute, and I am already working on them. It may take me all day or a couple, even to round them all up. But I am going to go ahead with what I've got so far. I hope you'll both bear with me, as I am being cautious out of love and respect for all. I can't sit at the computer for long periods of time, and I have other things I need to take care of, but for now....

"Partner" is not the proper term. I don't see Christ (or the Holy Spirit) as a partner with G-d. To me, as well as to many Christians, Jesus Christ is seen as the ultimate expression of God's love for humankind, and but one aspect of G-d...

Perhaps this is the most obvious misconception of Christianity and quite frankly one I could never get my head around as a Christian, I accept that was a failing on my part. Please try to understand that my religious education was very lacking, my parents do not believe in G-d so my education came from simply reading the bible and other books and trying to make sense of it all by myself. The church I attended as a child was a 'fire and brimstone' one and sunday school was just a series of lectures and finger painting. So I am fully aware my understanding of Christianity is seriously limited.

I understand. My grasp of Islam is probably not that good, either. I am not yet well-versed in the Suras, and time is running short for me, so I may never get to the point where I completely comprehend everything about Islam. But I do know that Allah/God is compassionate and merciful, and I am well past the fear of “fire and brimstone”. I taught in Children’s Church for a few years, and, for what it's worth, I believe with all my heart that “finger painting” is a much better way to share God’s love than “finger pointing”!

At one point I thought I had it, 'the trinity are not different beings and are all part of the same entity'. However, in my church (this is 30 years ago) I was told that I was born sinful and must fall on my knees and pray to Jesus for forgiveness and that G-d would not look upon such a sinner, unless Jesus(pbuh) begged for my forgiveness. Perhaps this is where my difficulties started? I was taught to seperate out Jesus (pbuh) from G-d, again not the fault of Christianity but of my so called teachers.

In my view, you are correct. The Trinity does not refer to three different people. Just different aspects of the One God. And there is not a need to "beg" for anything from Jesus. He never said that. He said simply to come follow Him, and He would show us the Father.

I do try to explain to fellow Muslims that Christians don't believe Jesus(pbuh) is a G-d alongside Allah, they do not sit side by side on their thrones but I can see why they have difficulty understanding - if I don't understand what hope can they have.

Thank you for trying. No doubt, it is a difficult concept to understand. There are some Christians who would probably not agree with me (and that's okay, too), but I believe that the “throne” is most likely a literary device which Jesus and the writers of the Bible utilized to help those of us throughout the ages who may find it difficult to think in more abstract terms. I wish I knew how to say that better….

I think one of the difficulties are the statues, the Catholic church have statues of Mary (pbuh) and pray before them, as Christians pray before (note I do not say pray to) statues of Jesus (pbuh). To an outsider this appears to be idol worship, even though you may only view it as intercedence. Think about a mosque (have you ever seen inside one?), nothing is allowed in the way of statues, paintings etc., because this would be viewed as idol worship. I think it is just misconception and lack of understanding perhaps on both sides.

Personally, I have always had difficulty with the abundance of statues and such, not just in certain Christian denominations, but in other religions as well. However, I am certain that most people who employ these images as part of religious ceremony are not worshiping those images. They are simply dwelling on what the images represent. For instance, I tend to find revelation from God in nature. That does not mean I worship the flowers or creatures in my garden as my Creator. God made us all, but obviously He does not always speak to us through identical channels. However, I do think that there are some things He tells us all. I believe that foremost among His wishes that He reveals to us is that we are to love Him first, and because we do, we will love one another. Some people think that to “love one another” means only within our perspective religions. I don’t buy that for one second!

... Perhaps because I am not a finger pointing "everyone else is going to hell nah, nah, nah, nah, nah" Muslim I am perceived as sitting on the fence? Nothing could be further from the truth.

Ahhh, yes, the “fence” thing. I get that a lot, too. Honestly, I don’t mind climbing up on that fence in order to see better sometimes. It doesn’t mean that I have denied my faith! It only means that there are actually some things I would like to hear from those of another faith. Yes, this bothers some of my Christian brothers and sisters a great deal. But, here I still am. If my faith cannot take a challenge, or if I have to shut down the brain that God gave me, and if I cannot rely on the leading of the Spirit as promised, then, yeah, my faith is flawed! The true purpose of any of the Abrahamic Faiths (as well as most others) is not a game. It isn’t a contest, but too often people feel like they have to be on some “team”, and in this I believe we err greatly.

MW--as I said, I am catching up on this conversation. So this is incomplete. I am planning on addressing some more of your comments as soon as I can get them up here on the screen.

And Saltmeister, you have a beautiful heart. I want to address some things you have mentioned as well. Thank you for your efforts.

I am learning from and enjoying this conversation. I'll get to work on those posts. Thank you both!

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Muslimwoman]

as salaam aleykum InLove, it is so good to hear from you

I understand. My grasp of Islam is probably not that good, either. I am not yet well-versed in the Suras.... I believe with all my heart that “finger painting” is a much better way to share God’s love than “finger pointing”!

Bless your heart, if I live to be 100 I will be grateful if I understand just a small percentage of the message Allah sent us through the Quran, let alone all of the books.

Don't tell anyone but I still like to finger paint - of course I try to have kids there so I don't look too silly.

In my view, you are correct. The Trinity does not refer to three different people. Just different aspects of the One God. And there is not a need to "beg" for anything from Jesus. He never said that. He said simply to come follow Him, and He would show us the Father.

So what is your view of the saying Father, Son and Holy Ghost? If they are all aspects of the One G-d then why seperate out the aspects and call them different names? (I realise I have a cheek asking because we have 99 names for the aspects of Allah but somehow it is just not the same, we don't have statues to any of them).

I wish I knew how to say that better….

I think you said it rather well and in a way I can understand - thank you.


Personally, I have always had difficulty with the abundance of statues and such, not just in certain Christian denominations, but in other religions as well. However, I am certain that most people who employ these images as part of religious ceremony are not worshiping those images.[/quote]

From outside it certainly appears that many people do, although I accept this may be a misunderstanding of the symbolism. Take for example the wine and bread, this is believed is it not to be a symbol for the blood Jesus (pbuh) shed for us and the body he lost for us? What I do not understand is why this symbolism needs to be there, do people feel unable to just worship G-d directly? Sorry if that sounds rude it isn't meant to be.

Some people think that to “love one another” means only within our perspective religions. I don’t buy that for one second!

Niether do I, this is a verse from the Quran:

And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (2:4)

Of course people interpret this as you have to be a Muslim and accept Mohammad (pbuh) as the final Prophet. Personally I find that most people accept that the message of the Quran is the same message as the Bible and Torah, that there is only one G-d and we must worship only Him. This is the true message of all the books, not the fighting and healing and human 'characters'. So if you accept that then you accept the underlying truth of the Quran and are free to be a Muslim, a Jew or a Christian and still attain heaven.

Ahhh, yes, the “fence” thing. I get that a lot, too. Honestly, I don’t mind climbing up on that fence in order to see better sometimes.

I just love your attitude - move over I am coming up.

MW--as I said, I am catching up on this conversation. So this is incomplete. I am planning on addressing some more of your comments as soon as I can get them up here on the screen.

I look forward to your next post, no rush your posts are generally worth the wait.

Salaam

 

[Quahom1]

Trascends . . . in other words, it is not under, but above logic.

Star Trek. Yes I can relate to that. The Vulcans follow logic. Humans yield to their emotions.

With regards to Christianity, I believe the distinctions are similar.

Christianity could, ideally be driven by emotions, but contemporary, traditional and conventional Christianity dictates that truth is not by emotions, but by logic.

Reasonableness? Reasoning can be either logical . . . or emotional.

I believe Truth would come a lot easier for Christians if they trusted their call of nature (emotions). There would not be so many divisions and denominations in Christianity if we put our trust in our emotions. After all, these emotions are a part of God's creation. Why do we not put our trust in something God created? Emotions are more natural than logic. Think of a flower opening up in spring. Flowers don't follow rules. They just do what they do. A call of nature. Schisms come from differences in logic, and logic attempts to thrust and shoehorn everything into some kind of structural framework.

Rather than putting our trust in something God-made (our emotions), we put our trust in something man-made (logic).

I wonder. Why is that? Why are we so cynical and suspicious of our own emotions and feelings?

The ONLY logical Christian I've ever met, is my father...and that is because he mixes Christianity with Buhddaism and Druidic thought.

Flowers indeed follow a specific set of rules. If they didn't, they would be dead.

Humans do not yield to their emotions. Emotions drive them, but logic gives them success. Look at any great "hero" in history...he/she never achieved their successes through emotions, but were driven by emotions.

just a thought Salt.

v/r

Joshua

 

[Prober]

Trascends . . . in other words, it is not under, but above logic.

Yes!

Reasonableness? Reasoning can be either logical . . . or emotional.

Yes!

I believe Truth would come a lot easier for Christians if they trusted their call of nature (emotions). There would not be so many divisions and denominations in Christianity if we put our trust in our emotions. After all, these emotions are a part of God's creation. Why do we not put our trust in something God created? Emotions are more natural than logic. Think of a flower opening up in spring. Flowers don't follow rules. They just do what they do. A call of nature. Schisms come from differences in logic, and logic attempts to thrust and shoehorn everything into some kind of structural framework.

Rather than putting our trust in something God-made (our emotions), we put our trust in something man-made (logic).

I think I agree with you here. But I think you have to add "as long as they trust the Holy Spirit" to your above paragraph.

"There is a way that seemeth right (logical?) in a man's eyes, but the end thereof is death".

The "natural man" can't see the truth because it's "spiritually discerned".

(thinking in progress...)

Anyway, thanks for the post!

 

[Saltmeister]

Flowers indeed follow a specific set of rules. If they didn't, they would be dead.

Yeah I know. Right down to the biological, biochemical level.

But let's be agnostic to that. Let's think in abstract terms. The flower is agnostic to these processes. It's call of nature is to open up in spring time. That's the only thing it "knows" "how to do."

Humans do not yield to their emotions. Emotions drive them, but logic gives them success. Look at any great "hero" in history...he/she never achieved their successes through emotions, but were driven by emotions.

In terms of pursuing concepts in a religion, or a relationship with God, emotions may make "better sense" -- perhaps even more intuitive. With everything else, logic may be a necessity.

Emotions can't always build physical bridges (an engineering project), but may be good for relational ones (social/mental/psychological project). Throw in some passion and sentiment, and you have a relational bridge. Attempt to build a physical bridge purely with emotions, and it may all end in tears. The resulting flood could ruin a lot of households. A natural disaster of enormous proportions. The disruption to life could be dramatic. It may leave families on the brink of survival.

 

[InLove]

As salaam aleykum, Muslimwoman

I am still working on the backlog of comments I want to address on this thread! So, this is still not all, but I saw your latest question and thought I’d just post a little in response. Whatever I haven’t addressed here will maybe be in my next post. If I can keep up, that is! (And Saltmeister, I haven’t forgotten you!)

Take for example the wine and bread, this is believed is it not to be a symbol for the blood Jesus (pbuh) shed for us and the body he lost for us? What I do not understand is why this symbolism needs to be there, do people feel unable to just worship G-d directly? Sorry if that sounds rude it isn't meant to be.

I don’t think you are being rude at all. I think you are trying to understand something. I will try to explain.

The symbolism of the wine and the bread is different than some other symbols, because participation in this ritual is considered a “holy ordinance”. The reason for this is because Scripture (Luke, chapter 22) records Jesus (during the last Passover feast before he died) saying “…do this in remembrance of me.” We are to remember Him in this way. Some Christians refer to this as “The Lord’s Supper” and some call it “Communion”. To some, the term is interchangeable. I think that in the Catholic Traditions, there is a little bit deeper description of this ritual—it transcends symbolism, I think. I can’t really go into all of that as I was not trained in Catholicism, as much as I admire and respect it. In my Protestant Christian (mostly Baptist and Methodist) experience, however, it is a deeply thought-provoking and loving act in remembrance of Jesus and in fellowship with other believers, bringing us together as “the body of Christ”. I know that is rather vague or complicated sounding, but it is the best I can do at the moment. And yes, it is often a controversial subject, but a beloved one, nonetheless.

Okay, now, I’m going to give this a shot, and hopefully I will do it well, and it won’t offend:

As far as worshipping God directly goes: What you have to remember when speaking with many Christians (myself included) is that the Christ is actually one aspect of God. So, in essence, He is God. That aspect of God which gave of Himself in order to reconcile us to Him. Does that explanation help at all?

I know that to you, this probably seems incredibly informal. But it is something wonderful to me, the reason being that it reminds me that God, through His own loving action, reached out to let me know He understands and cares, and is not willing for me to be lost and separated eternally from Him. He made a way for me to “know” whatever I needed to know about Him (I have no doubt that there is much, much more!), so that I would not have to live in fear that I am not ever going to be good enough to be within His Love.

Well, like I said, this is a quick response on my part, and I plan to add more as soon as I can. (My monitor keeps doing wierd stuff, so I hope it holds out long enough for me to answer some things, and then maybe, just maybe--lol--I'll have some questions, too. )

In the meantime, this caught my eye, and I thought it would be a positive to dwell on for now. I thought you might appreciate the passage posted after your comment. After all, we aren't just investigating our differences, but also our commonalities:

Perhaps that is why I chose Islam, I looked into my heart and there was G-d, smiling at me and asking me to love Him back as He loves me? I have no problem finding G-d because He found me first, as a child and He has never left me…

From 1John 4:18-20

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

We love him, because he first loved us.

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?


Catch ya a bit later, my fellow investigator!

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Saltmeister]

I think I agree with you here. But I think you have to add "as long as they trust the Holy Spirit" to your above paragraph.

Yeah, I forgot that. The Spirit aids us all in the most important matters.

Plants can't grow without sunshine and water. The Spirit is like our sunshine and water.

 

[Quahom1]

Yeah I know. Right down to the biological, biochemical level.

But let's be agnostic to that. Let's think in abstract terms. The flower is agnostic to these processes. It's call of nature is to open up in spring time. That's the only thing it "knows" "how to do."



In terms of pursuing concepts in a religion, or a relationship with God, emotions may make "better sense" -- perhaps even more intuitive. With everything else, logic may be a necessity.

Emotions can't always build physical bridges (an engineering project), but may be good for relational ones (social/mental/psychological project). Throw in some passion and sentiment, and you have a relational bridge. Attempt to build a physical bridge purely with emotions, and it may all end in tears. The resulting flood could ruin a lot of households. A natural disaster of enormous proportions. The disruption to life could be dramatic. It may leave families on the brink of survival.

Now see, that is my problem. I can't see life without seeing God behind it. Guess I'd make a lousy agnostic...

 

[InLove]

As salaam aleykum, MW--

When I pray I am actually in the presence of Allah, to worship Him and thank Him and humbly request that He shows me the right path.

This is very similar to how I pray, too.

The only way I can describe it is that I aim for my soul to go to heaven and prostrate before the Creator.

May I ask you if you mean that you aim for your soul to go to heaven in that moment of prayer, or do you mean in the life to come? Or both? (I hope this is not inappropriate for me to ask.)

Also, I sometimes lie prostrate in prayer, but not always. Is this always required in Islamic prayer, or is this a personal choice for you? (Gee, I really feel like I might be prying. I am just curious. But of course, don’t feel bad if you don’t want to answer. I will understand.)

This is why we ensure absolute cleanliness, I wear my best clothes which I reserve for prayer and I humble myself in prayer.

Perhaps this is where we differ? As a Christian I was taught that G-d is my ultimate Father and He is very loving. As a Christian I had, what I feel, was quite an arrogant relationship with G-d. Whereas, in Islam I am very aware that I am a humble servant of Allah.

I appreciate the deep significance and beauty in Islamic prayer. I recognize your dedication, and I have no doubt that Allah hears with Love and Wisdom and appreciates your humble devotion. How could He not, since He is Compassionate and Merciful and Forgiving?

How do you handle your thoughts of thanksgiving in between these times of prayer? I ask because although there are many times when I do shut out everything else during prayer, I also pray unceasingly. For example, something as simple as a new spring blossom will immediately elicit praise from my heart to God for the beauty of the earth, and the sustenance it provides, etc., etc., etc. And when I witness the birth of a newborn baby, or the devotion between two people, or when someone smoothes over a disagreement with a kind word and peace results, I am thanking God in my heart. I am constantly humbled at the vastness of His creation and the wonder of His love. I am thinking that we simply express our devotion in different ways. What do you think?

In Islam we accept the special talents/gifts of Jesus (pbuh), we accept the virgin birth but deny completely the idea that Jesus (pbuh) was anything other than human. So let us explore, G-d created Adam (pbuh) and we all accept he was the first man but people do not claim him to be a son of G-d. Yet he had no mother or father, G-d simply created him. So why would anyone believe Jesus (pbuh), who had a human mother, was literally the son of G-d rather than a creation of G-d?….

I would really like to understand this one, so could a couple of other Christians give me their concepts on Father, Son and Holy Ghost please and answer the question about Adam & Jesus (pbut)?

I will attempt an explanation. (Again, remember that my explanation may not be the same as that of every Christian.) But here is how I understand things: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are different aspects of God. (For example, I am a mom, a daughter, and a wife, but not three different people. And I should qualify my example by adding that while I am limited, God is unlimited.) Anyway, so The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are all aspects of God from time immemorial, and all present at the Creation. Adam was created by God from the dust, but the Christ aspect was present in God at the time of Adam’s creation. Thus, Jesus could be said to be God Incarnate. That is why some Christians call Mary “Mother of God”. It isn’t a term that all are comfortable saying, by the way. But I understand it. I adore Mary, but I do not worship her as deity.

Well, my friend, I have to go again for now. But I’ll come back later. There is still so much to talk about. I can only do a little at a time. I hope I am being of some help and not upsetting you. I’m just trying to explain in my own way how I see things, and even though it is not always perfectly aligned with any particular theology, it comes very close to what some Christians believe. I have questions about Islam, too, but I am trying to focus on your questions first.

InPeace,
InLove