Some people following both of our religions believe it's wrong to rationalise one's beliefs. But what would be a point of believing in something without a reason?
I didn't know that about Christianity, we live and learn. Couldn't agree more, I simply don't believe in blind following, G-d wanted me to find Him and I couldn't have done that without reasoning.
After I made my last post to you, I started thinking about what you said about the "middleman" thing. It's something I've worked out for myself.
Perhaps it will help me if you can explain to me what it means to you to say "in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost"? This is where we get the idea from that you place partners with G-d.
My impression is that Islam seeks only an "earthly experience" while Christianity seeks to merge a "heavenly experience" with an earthly one.
When I pray I am actually in the presence of Allah, to worship Him and thank Him and humbly request that He shows me the right path. The only way I can describe it is that I aim for my soul to go to heaven and prostrate before the Creator. This is why we ensure absolute cleanliness, I wear my best clothes which I reserve for prayer and I humble myself in prayer.
Perhaps this is where we differ? As a Christian I was taught that G-d is my ultimate Father and He is very loving. As a Christian I had, what I feel, was quite an arrogant relationship with G-d. Whereas, in Islam I am very aware that I am a humble servant of Allah.
God is often seen as a Mystery, something unknowable and undefinable. The possible break between Islam and Christianity is where Christianity sees the possibility that a person may know God personally and intimately, and not just talk and communicate with Him.
Wow okay that is a really big difference. For us prayer is about worshipping G-d, supplication to Him not building a personal relationship with Him.
How on earth can you know G-d intimately? He's not our mate, He is the ultimate Master and Lord of everything. G-d is unknowable, He is beyond human perception and forgive me I am not trying to be rude but it seems rather disrespectful to suggest you can have a personal relationship with G-d.
God is still undefinable, but He is knowable in a personal sense. Prayer, in general, is an exchange between us and God. "Normal prayer" is a communication and conversation with God, but does not involve personal knowledge of God.
Sorry I am a bit lost for words, my brain is fusing a little. Are you just talking about the connection you feel with G-d during prayer?
I may be wrong here, but I am going to assume for now (for the purpose of exploring the issue) that in Islam, a prayer involves communication with but not personal knowledge of God.
I don't really understand what you mean by personal knowledge. We are mere humans and we cannot know anything of G-d. Our hearts can know that G-d exists and our hearts can glimpse a sense of Him but when you say "knowledge" it suggests an understanding and that is simply not possible.
I may be wrong here, but I am going to assume for now (for the purpose of exploring the issue) that in Islam, a prayer involves communication with but not personal knowledge of God.
When we pray we say subhana Rabbiyal-'a la, which means Praise be to my Supreme Lord. This is how I see my prayer, it gives me great joy to humble myself and supplicate to Allah but I will tell you honestly, the only time I look up when I pray is when I first call Allahu Akbar at the beginning of my prayers, this I feel calls me to the presence of G-d and from that moment on I would be too afraid to look up.
The fard salat (5 daily prayers) are for us to supplicate, to Allah, to thank Him and worship Him. We make Du'a, which means to call on G-d. Du'a can be for worship or for asking (eg requesting Allah to lift an illness from you). You would understand this best I think as personal prayer. Du'a can be made on someone else's behalf.
According to some scholars, before Du'a Muslims may pray upon the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) but I personally do not do this as it is based on a hadith where the Prophet says "praise G-d with the praise He is worthy of, then pray upon me". As the Quran is filled with verses that state G-d is the only thing worthy of praise I find it hard to believe the Prophet would suggest we pray upon anything but Allah (just my personal view though - but I thought one Christians may find interesting all things considered
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It basically has the same attitude as I hear from Christians here, that you are invoking the name of Jesus (pbuh) because G-d loves him, so Muslims invoke the name of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) because G-d loves him, as He loves all the Prophets. It doesn't get us past the son of G-d issue but may make for more interesting conversations between Christians and Muslims?).
I may be wrong here, but I am going to assume for now (for the purpose of exploring the issue) that in Islam, a prayer involves communication with but not personal knowledge of God.
I simply seek, through prayer, to supplicate and for G-d to know me. It is not a question of conversation, it is worshiping our Supreme Lord, our Creator and to whom we must answer for our sins.
I think in Christianity, Christians do not simply seek a conversation with God in prayer, but seek to trascend "normal prayer" to know God personally and intimately. But the aim is not just "personal knowledge" but unity with God.
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I am actually speachless. Seriously it took me 5 minutes before I could start typing again.
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We are talking about G-d, you cannot achieve unity with Him. You must serve and obey Him, you must spend your life working to try to please Him and pray so that He will recognise you. Sorry I have this awful image now of a group of Christians down the local having a beer and a chat about creation with G-d
Christianity involves the belief that God wants more than just "normal prayer" (ie. just communication). He wants to be connected with us personally and intimately. He wants us to know Him. Unity is achieved by mutual personal knowledge of each other, not just one of the other.
What we may know of G-d is built into us, we are born with that knowledge. What do you know of G-d, what have you learned of G-d through prayer? Sorry that is not meant to be rude but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
In Islam, personal knowledge of God probably wouldn't be necessary as He makes His intentions known in the Quran. In Christianity, the idea may be that Christians can acquire knowledge of the same things by connecting with God personally and intimately.
OMG are you suggesting G-d speaks to Christians through prayer???? Will the whole Chrisitan world become Prophets? I swear I am not trying to misunderstand you but my brain is freaking at the moment. G-d also makes his intentions very clear in the OT or have Christians moved away from that now?
Before Jesus, there were special people who acquired personal knowledge of God -- David, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jeremiah, etc. . . . They were people who, by trascending "normal prayer," discovered God. Where Jesus fits into Christianity, is that he was one of those people, but came to show everyone else how to do it, so that everyone could receive the benefits of connecting personally and intimately with God.
Sorry I am reading this as I answer each bit and it keeps getting worse. The names you mention are all Prophets (pbut) of G-d, He spoke to each of them either through angels or directly. We cannot achieve that through prayer. Prophets were chosen by G-d, are you saying all Christians have been chosen by G-d for this special task, to recieve the word of G-d? Please tell me I am having a completely blonde moment and totally misunderstanding you.
This is just a theory that I've come up with as a result of our discussions. I believe it might (no guarantees, no warranty) help us understand that our differences in beliefs have a lot to do with differences in our concept of prayer and connectedness with God. The validity of this theory will depend on whether I've accurately captured the Christian and Islamic concepts of prayer and connectedness with God. I'll have to wait for your response to find out . . .
I think to answer that we would have to ask other Christians and Muslims if they perceive prayer the same way we do but if they do then you are right, we see prayer in a very different way. I am certainly shocked by your views of prayers and have this great urge to go and throw myself on the floor before G-d and show him how humble I feel before Him. I realise I am making myself sound silly but really I am so shocked, I view our role before G-d as one of supplicants, servants and we must work hard to make ourselves worthy of Him even looking upon us.
I would be interested in hearing from other Christians and Muslims and Jews to see how they view prayer.
Salaam