What are the Differences between the Abrahamic Faiths?

[Muslimwoman]

There seems to be a recurring issue that Jesus is somehow acting as "middleman" or "intercessor." I see him more as leader, guide and escort. Was Mohammed not a leader and guide? Jesus is leading, guiding and escorting me to God. I could just as well go and see God myself but I don't know how to find Him. I need someone with intimate knowledge of the terrain to give me directions and advice.

Excellent post Slameister, thank you. But surely you have to admit that yours is a rare view in Christianity, I believe if I had the same conversation with Faithfulservant I would get very different views?

Perhaps that is why I chose Islam, I looked into my heart and there was G-d, smiling at me and asking me to love Him back as He loves me? I have no problem finding G-d because He found me first, as a child and He has never left me (even when, to my shame, I abandoned Him in my younger years ).

(Note: I think the word you were meaning to say was "intercession.")

Forgive me, this forum has made me realise how long I have been speaking Arabic, I have to wrack my brains for english words now. My father would go nuts, he paid a fortune for my education.

God accepted Jesus because of his beliefs and his attitude to life, not because of his achievements. It was his devotion and dedication that mattered. When we live with the same attitude, we are then, essentially like Jesus, and God can accept us for the same reasons as he accepted Jesus. God rewards people who make an effort at doing good, so obviously He used Jesus as an example. It's a lot like what Jesus says in Matthew 12:50 that, "whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, sister and mother." This is where a "descendant" could be seen as synonymous with "brother" or "sister."

I like your view of Christianity Saltmeister.

This idea that I have works for me. Hopefully it's not seen as "warped."

I can only speak personally, but I hope you know by now I never judge people by their beliefs and I think yours are far from warped.

A Jew, Christian or Muslim might, from time to time, need to defend themselves against other adherents of the same religion and justify his/her beliefs and not be condemned for failure to conform.

OK am back with the programme now. Oh tell me about it, you should see some of my conversations with Muslim brothers on other threads (whispers - apparently I'm going to hell for my views).

This is what distinguishes religions from cults. In a normal, healthy religion, people have an individual identity that they can defend, despite failure to conform. A cult is where conformity is mandatory and the individual's identity is disregarded. Devotion and dedication isn't enough. You must fit yourself into the same pattern somehow.

Oops better tell some of the more traditional Muslims that, because apparently they are in a cult (although quite frankly that sounds about right to me - it is forbidden to use reasoning).

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

I'm agreeing here, with everything accept the spontanaity thing...now in one case some divine/born again/enlightenment may make you deside spontaneously to committ yourself to x, y or z...but I really think that the exploration of the other concepts and then coming to a decision based on extended inner contemplation or conversations with G-d as it were is the valid basis to choose to change from whatever your upbringing was...or your current religious status is....

Does remind me of the Parent that told their adopted child how they loved them as much as their biological children...."You must remember, we chose you!"

as salaam aleykum Wil

Sorry I am in the middle here. I spent years looking into numerous religions (from the sublime to the rediculous literally) to find my place but when I found Islam it was like a light went on inside my heart. I didn't rush into it, in fact the first thing a scholar told me, was not to rush but learn and then decide but I knew right away I had found my place.

Did I misunderstand you Wil about the adoptive parents comment? I think that is a loving, caring and sincere thing to say to an adoptive child

 

[Muslimwoman]

I think that the problems we have agreeing on what Scripture says or means often arise from variations in our cultural backgrounds. Not just things like where we come from and where we have been, but also from where we are now. It also seems to me that they frequently stem from deeply rooted differences--even nuances--in our perception of language. What our minds associate with certain verbal triggers. The pictures in our heads, or even perhaps on our hearts.

But what is on our hearts is what Scripture points to, and I think if we look to that, we can more often understand one another, and better. I have every confidence that this is on G-d's heart as well.

InPeace,
InLove

What a lovely post InLove. I believe Islam is an excellent example of what you are saying. Just look at the difference of interpretations between the Muslims of different cultures. Their religious laws are even different and all based on the same book.

Salaam

 

[Saltmeister]

Oops better tell some of the more traditional Muslims that, because apparently they are in a cult (although quite frankly that sounds about right to me - it is forbidden to use reasoning).

Some people following both of our religions believe it's wrong to rationalise one's beliefs. But what would be a point of believing in something without a reason? I frequently rationalise and justify my beliefs to myself to make sure I understand why I am doing it. I also like to transcend traditions and explore ways of seeing things that I have never been taught before, nor read in a book.

It may not be just me. I am sure, particularly with Western Christians, that there is quite a lot of lateral and divergent thinking going on.

Excellent post Slameister, thank you. But surely you have to admit that yours is a rare view in Christianity, I believe if I had the same conversation with Faithfulservant I would get very different views?

Perhaps that is why I chose Islam, I looked into my heart and there was G-d, smiling at me and asking me to love Him back as He loves me? I have no problem finding G-d because He found me first, as a child and He has never left me (even when, to my shame, I abandoned Him in my younger years ).

After I made my last post to you, I started thinking about what you said about the "middleman" thing. It's something I've worked out for myself. I can explain and justify to myself that it's not supposed to be a "middleman" thing. But I had little idea what that might mean to you. An idea I got was that "prayer" may be seen differently in Christianity compared to Islam.

My impression is that Islam seeks only an "earthly experience" while Christianity seeks to merge a "heavenly experience" with an earthly one.

Christianity and Islam seem to have different goals and agendas with regards to spirituality and seeking an interaction with God. God is often seen as a Mystery, something unknowable and undefinable. The possible break between Islam and Christianity is where Christianity sees the possibility that a person may know God personally and intimately, and not just talk and communicate with Him. God is still undefinable, but He is knowable in a personal sense. Prayer, in general, is an exchange between us and God. "Normal prayer" is a communication and conversation with God, but does not involve personal knowledge of God. I may be wrong here, but I am going to assume for now (for the purpose of exploring the issue) that in Islam, a prayer involves communication with but not personal knowledge of God. (Correct me later if this concept is wrong.)

I think in Christianity, Christians do not simply seek a conversation with God in prayer, but seek to trascend "normal prayer" to know God personally and intimately. But the aim is not just "personal knowledge" but unity with God. Christianity involves the belief that God wants more than just "normal prayer" (ie. just communication). He wants to be connected with us personally and intimately. He wants us to know Him. Unity is achieved by mutual personal knowledge of each other, not just one of the other.

In Islam, God makes His intentions known through the Quran. Something heavenly has been brought down into an earthly realm. In Christianity there is no Quran, so Christians seek to "rise up into heaven" to connect with God. What happens here is a merging of the earthly and heavenly, both in Islam and in Christianity. In Islam, personal knowledge of God probably wouldn't be necessary as He makes His intentions known in the Quran. In Christianity, the idea may be that Christians can acquire knowledge of the same things by connecting with God personally and intimately. Before Jesus, there were special people who acquired personal knowledge of God -- David, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jeremiah, etc. . . . They were people who, by trascending "normal prayer," discovered God. Where Jesus fits into Christianity, is that he was one of those people, but came to show everyone else how to do it, so that everyone could receive the benefits of connecting personally and intimately with God.

This is just a theory that I've come up with as a result of our discussions. I believe it might (no guarantees, no warranty) help us understand that our differences in beliefs have a lot to do with differences in our concept of prayer and connectedness with God. The validity of this theory will depend on whether I've accurately captured the Christian and Islamic concepts of prayer and connectedness with God. I'll have to wait for your response to find out . . .

 

[Muslimwoman]

Some people following both of our religions believe it's wrong to rationalise one's beliefs. But what would be a point of believing in something without a reason?

I didn't know that about Christianity, we live and learn. Couldn't agree more, I simply don't believe in blind following, G-d wanted me to find Him and I couldn't have done that without reasoning.

After I made my last post to you, I started thinking about what you said about the "middleman" thing. It's something I've worked out for myself.

Perhaps it will help me if you can explain to me what it means to you to say "in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost"? This is where we get the idea from that you place partners with G-d.

My impression is that Islam seeks only an "earthly experience" while Christianity seeks to merge a "heavenly experience" with an earthly one.

When I pray I am actually in the presence of Allah, to worship Him and thank Him and humbly request that He shows me the right path. The only way I can describe it is that I aim for my soul to go to heaven and prostrate before the Creator. This is why we ensure absolute cleanliness, I wear my best clothes which I reserve for prayer and I humble myself in prayer.

Perhaps this is where we differ? As a Christian I was taught that G-d is my ultimate Father and He is very loving. As a Christian I had, what I feel, was quite an arrogant relationship with G-d. Whereas, in Islam I am very aware that I am a humble servant of Allah.

God is often seen as a Mystery, something unknowable and undefinable. The possible break between Islam and Christianity is where Christianity sees the possibility that a person may know God personally and intimately, and not just talk and communicate with Him.

Wow okay that is a really big difference. For us prayer is about worshipping G-d, supplication to Him not building a personal relationship with Him.

How on earth can you know G-d intimately? He's not our mate, He is the ultimate Master and Lord of everything. G-d is unknowable, He is beyond human perception and forgive me I am not trying to be rude but it seems rather disrespectful to suggest you can have a personal relationship with G-d.

God is still undefinable, but He is knowable in a personal sense. Prayer, in general, is an exchange between us and God. "Normal prayer" is a communication and conversation with God, but does not involve personal knowledge of God.

Sorry I am a bit lost for words, my brain is fusing a little. Are you just talking about the connection you feel with G-d during prayer?

I may be wrong here, but I am going to assume for now (for the purpose of exploring the issue) that in Islam, a prayer involves communication with but not personal knowledge of God.

I don't really understand what you mean by personal knowledge. We are mere humans and we cannot know anything of G-d. Our hearts can know that G-d exists and our hearts can glimpse a sense of Him but when you say "knowledge" it suggests an understanding and that is simply not possible.

I may be wrong here, but I am going to assume for now (for the purpose of exploring the issue) that in Islam, a prayer involves communication with but not personal knowledge of God.

When we pray we say subhana Rabbiyal-'a la, which means Praise be to my Supreme Lord. This is how I see my prayer, it gives me great joy to humble myself and supplicate to Allah but I will tell you honestly, the only time I look up when I pray is when I first call Allahu Akbar at the beginning of my prayers, this I feel calls me to the presence of G-d and from that moment on I would be too afraid to look up.

The fard salat (5 daily prayers) are for us to supplicate, to Allah, to thank Him and worship Him. We make Du'a, which means to call on G-d. Du'a can be for worship or for asking (eg requesting Allah to lift an illness from you). You would understand this best I think as personal prayer. Du'a can be made on someone else's behalf.

According to some scholars, before Du'a Muslims may pray upon the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) but I personally do not do this as it is based on a hadith where the Prophet says "praise G-d with the praise He is worthy of, then pray upon me". As the Quran is filled with verses that state G-d is the only thing worthy of praise I find it hard to believe the Prophet would suggest we pray upon anything but Allah (just my personal view though - but I thought one Christians may find interesting all things considered It basically has the same attitude as I hear from Christians here, that you are invoking the name of Jesus (pbuh) because G-d loves him, so Muslims invoke the name of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) because G-d loves him, as He loves all the Prophets. It doesn't get us past the son of G-d issue but may make for more interesting conversations between Christians and Muslims?).

I may be wrong here, but I am going to assume for now (for the purpose of exploring the issue) that in Islam, a prayer involves communication with but not personal knowledge of God.

I simply seek, through prayer, to supplicate and for G-d to know me. It is not a question of conversation, it is worshiping our Supreme Lord, our Creator and to whom we must answer for our sins.

I think in Christianity, Christians do not simply seek a conversation with God in prayer, but seek to trascend "normal prayer" to know God personally and intimately. But the aim is not just "personal knowledge" but unity with God.

I am actually speachless. Seriously it took me 5 minutes before I could start typing again. We are talking about G-d, you cannot achieve unity with Him. You must serve and obey Him, you must spend your life working to try to please Him and pray so that He will recognise you. Sorry I have this awful image now of a group of Christians down the local having a beer and a chat about creation with G-d

Christianity involves the belief that God wants more than just "normal prayer" (ie. just communication). He wants to be connected with us personally and intimately. He wants us to know Him. Unity is achieved by mutual personal knowledge of each other, not just one of the other.

What we may know of G-d is built into us, we are born with that knowledge. What do you know of G-d, what have you learned of G-d through prayer? Sorry that is not meant to be rude but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

In Islam, personal knowledge of God probably wouldn't be necessary as He makes His intentions known in the Quran. In Christianity, the idea may be that Christians can acquire knowledge of the same things by connecting with God personally and intimately.

OMG are you suggesting G-d speaks to Christians through prayer???? Will the whole Chrisitan world become Prophets? I swear I am not trying to misunderstand you but my brain is freaking at the moment. G-d also makes his intentions very clear in the OT or have Christians moved away from that now?

Before Jesus, there were special people who acquired personal knowledge of God -- David, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jeremiah, etc. . . . They were people who, by trascending "normal prayer," discovered God. Where Jesus fits into Christianity, is that he was one of those people, but came to show everyone else how to do it, so that everyone could receive the benefits of connecting personally and intimately with God.

Sorry I am reading this as I answer each bit and it keeps getting worse. The names you mention are all Prophets (pbut) of G-d, He spoke to each of them either through angels or directly. We cannot achieve that through prayer. Prophets were chosen by G-d, are you saying all Christians have been chosen by G-d for this special task, to recieve the word of G-d? Please tell me I am having a completely blonde moment and totally misunderstanding you.

This is just a theory that I've come up with as a result of our discussions. I believe it might (no guarantees, no warranty) help us understand that our differences in beliefs have a lot to do with differences in our concept of prayer and connectedness with God. The validity of this theory will depend on whether I've accurately captured the Christian and Islamic concepts of prayer and connectedness with God. I'll have to wait for your response to find out . . .

I think to answer that we would have to ask other Christians and Muslims if they perceive prayer the same way we do but if they do then you are right, we see prayer in a very different way. I am certainly shocked by your views of prayers and have this great urge to go and throw myself on the floor before G-d and show him how humble I feel before Him. I realise I am making myself sound silly but really I am so shocked, I view our role before G-d as one of supplicants, servants and we must work hard to make ourselves worthy of Him even looking upon us.

I would be interested in hearing from other Christians and Muslims and Jews to see how they view prayer.

Salaam

 

[Quahom1]

I didn't know that about Christianity, we live and learn. Couldn't agree more, I simply don't believe in blind following, G-d wanted me to find Him and I couldn't have done that without reasoning.

Um, Saltmeister, has a point that is not the same point as the majority of Christianity. Please bare that in mind.

Christianity is not a reasonable faith. Never has been, never will be. Those that claim such, are in error. I would spare you the preconception of such error.

Christianity is a strange faith indeed. People come to it, expecting immediate change in their lives, only to find that doesn't always happen. But for those who stick with it, the miracle of the faith is pronounced.

Why? Because to the faithful, not much changes (inside), but to the outside world, changes abound about that "Christian". (sorry, I forcing you to get back into english diction )

The irony is that the world sees the "change" in a man/woman who accept Christianity, before the person themself sees change!

There is no logic or rationalization to this phenomenon.

With all due respect to Salt's position, his is not the fundamental Christian base perspective. (and I'm not talking about fundamentalists of the faith either, just the core concept).

Here is a thought to consider:

If, there were such a people as "Vulcans" (Star Trek), they would immediately gravitate towards the rationalism of Islam (not Christianity, nor Buhdaism, Hindusim, or any other "feeling" faith).

However, I doubt they would hold such faith for long. Why?, no one practices the faith in the pureness of the originator's intent. (do as I say, not as I do...) Islam, currently is a stark example of such.

No, I do not blame the religion, or the "faith". It's people that muck things up.

Let's consider the facts. By all rights "I" should consider being a Muslim. I want peace, and am willing to take up the sword to ensure that peace (as a last resort). I believe in the "five pillars" as good, sound, and rational decrees. This is the message of Muhhamad.

It is not what the followers of Islam in the middle east (to a significant extent), are following.

Christianity for me, is the Sammaritan who picks up and cares for the beaten and lowly one. There is no rationalisation for such behaviour. Or is there?

In "Robin Hood", the "Christian" saved the life of the "Moor", who took upon himself the burden of watching over the Christian. But in the end, the "Muslim Moor" saved the lives of countless others, by getting them to accept "jihad" in the truest sence...defense of one's home. The "Christian" Hood, may have been brilliant in tactical ways, and passionate about his faith and his people, but the "Moor" expressed that passion (after taking it into his own soul), in such a way that the people, responded.

I think there is great need for Islam in the world. But not at the expense of any other faith.

You can't kill in the name of Christ, nor in the name of Muhhamad...it's plain wrong...

 

[Muslimwoman]

Um, Saltmeister, has a point that is not the same point as the majority of Christianity. Please bare that in mind.

Hi Quahom

Thanks, I am aware that Salt has a non-mainstream view but I like the fact that he will explore ideas, even if we get to the conclusion and say well that was rubbish and don't agree with it.

Christianity is not a reasonable faith. Never has been, never will be. Those that claim such, are in error. I would spare you the preconception of such error.

That was certainly my experience as a Christian and one reason I found I could not remain so. My mind likes to, in it's own little way, explore the possibilities, make it's own conclusions and find G-d in it's own way, not have an image of G-d thrust upon me (with the premise "you are an ignorant peasant and cannot understand" - and yes I get that from some Muslims as well).

Why? Because to the faithful, not much changes (inside), but to the outside world, changes abound about that "Christian". (sorry, I forcing you to get back into english diction )

hee hee, how can anyone say "I forcing you" then refer to my english diction? Ha, ha, ha. Actually it is wierd speaking my own language again, amazing how much you forget. When I speak to Arabs that speak english I tend to do so in the same way you would speak to a child, so I have been without adult conversation in english for some years now.

The irony is that the world sees the "change" in a man/woman who accept Christianity, before the person themself sees change! There is no logic or rationalization to this phenomenon.

Interesting perspective and not one I have considered before. To be honest, when I look back, people saw the changes in me as a Muslim long before I internally felt comfortable or confident in those changes.

However, I doubt they would hold such faith for long. Why?, no one practices the faith in the pureness of the originator's intent. (do as I say, not as I do...) Islam, currently is a stark example of such.

The Closing of the Gates does have rather a lot to answer for. I wouldn't agree that no-one practices this but certainly a majority have followed the scholars down the path of 'follow, don't think'.

No, I do not blame the religion, or the "faith". It's people that muck things up.

Absolutely correct and one of the most frustrating things about converting to Islam. When you first sit in the west and learn about Islam, you do see the pure faith. However, after conversion reality (ie human interference) does strike and you see how far Muslims have moved from the pure faith. People here keep ridiculing me because I have rose coloured glasses and I disassociate Islam from acts of human cruelty but that is because I look to the pure faith, not follow the teachings of lunatics with political agenda's.

It is not what the followers of Islam in the middle east (to a significant extent), are following.

Correct again, but why should that stop anyone converting? I converted to follow Islam not to follow silly cruel men with warped political agendas. Just because I call myself a Muslim does not mean I have to follow these daft people or want to kill anyone. Some Christians have themselves literally crucified at Easter, does that mean people should steer clear of Christianity?

Christianity for me, is the Sammaritan who picks up and cares for the beaten and lowly one. There is no rationalisation for such behaviour. Or is there?

So if that is the pureness of Christianity then why are there so many rich Christians while people are starving in the world? Why does the Vatican have billions while followers of their religion eat from rubbish tips? Because the acts of men invariably do not follow the pure sense of G-ds word, in any religion.

In "Robin Hood", the "Christian" saved the life of the "Moor", who took upon himself the burden of watching over the Christian.

Oh my Lord, has the reputation of Islam really become so bad that people can't find a decent Muslim other than a fictional character? I realise you were not being critical, it just saddens me that people always refer to this fiction. I do understand what you are saying, the character was drawn from the pure path of Islam and if all Muslims actually lived this way the world would be a better place.

I think there is great need for Islam in the world. But not at the expense of any other faith.

I agree with you and until a day comes (which I doubt it ever will) that all Muslims follow the true and intended path, then we have no right to suggest that all the world should be Muslim.

You can't kill in the name of Christ, nor in the name of Muhhamad...it's plain wrong...

Here, here. It is just a crying shame that so many millions have been killed in the name of both.

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

PS Quahom

re the pureness of faith. I was staggered when I first went to Egypt how many people, inlcuding sheikhs, said that converts tend to be better Muslims and it was for this very reason. They tend to 'see' the faith in it's pure form, not as it was taught to them as a child. This is one reason my husband has asked me repeatedly not to follow any school or read their books, because he feels I will lose my 'innocence' and ability to see the pure path that way.

Perhaps that's what we should all do, hand over our scriptures to another religion and ask for an interpretation, maybe that would take us back to our pure faith (okay I know a ridiculous idea but I hope you know what I mean).

 

[Quahom1]

Hi Quahom

Thanks, I am aware that Salt has a non-mainstream view but I like the fact that he will explore ideas, even if we get to the conclusion and say well that was rubbish and don't agree with it.



That was certainly my experience as a Christian and one reason I found I could not remain so. My mind likes to, in it's own little way, explore the possibilities, make it's own conclusions and find G-d in it's own way, not have an image of G-d thrust upon me (with the premise "you are an ignorant peasant and cannot understand" - and yes I get that from some Muslims as well).



hee hee, how can anyone say "I forcing you" then refer to my english diction? Ha, ha, ha. Actually it is wierd speaking my own language again, amazing how much you forget. When I speak to Arabs that speak english I tend to do so in the same way you would speak to a child, so I have been without adult conversation in english for some years now.

Sorry, sometimes my mind moves faster than my fingertips.

 

[Faithfulservant]

PS Quahom

re the pureness of faith. I was staggered when I first went to Egypt how many people, inlcuding sheikhs, said that converts tend to be better Muslims and it was for this very reason. They tend to 'see' the faith in it's pure form, not as it was taught to them as a child. This is one reason my husband has asked me repeatedly not to follow any school or read their books, because he feels I will lose my 'innocence' and ability to see the pure path that way.

Perhaps that's what we should all do, hand over our scriptures to another religion and ask for an interpretation, maybe that would take us back to our pure faith (okay I know a ridiculous idea but I hope you know what I mean).

I think thats beautiful!

and I concur with regards to new Christians..

they get all mucked with up with things that arent biblical.

 

[Quahom1]

PS Quahom

re the pureness of faith. I was staggered when I first went to Egypt how many people, inlcuding sheikhs, said that converts tend to be better Muslims and it was for this very reason. They tend to 'see' the faith in it's pure form, not as it was taught to them as a child. This is one reason my husband has asked me repeatedly not to follow any school or read their books, because he feels I will lose my 'innocence' and ability to see the pure path that way.

Perhaps that's what we should all do, hand over our scriptures to another religion and ask for an interpretation, maybe that would take us back to our pure faith (okay I know a ridiculous idea but I hope you know what I mean).

I couldn't kiddo. I'm too close. I know Islam and Christianity like the back of my hand. But observing Christians and Muslims as close as I have, has tainted my perception.

If there was a faith called oh, "Christlam", I'd probably sign up for it in a heart beat. Being the first, I'd have no bad habits to follow...

 

[Saltmeister]

Hi Muslimwoman,

In the last post I was talking about this theory I had about Christian and Islamic concepts about prayer and God being different. I was just trying to find some "root concept" that drives everything in Islam and Christianity and say that was the "root" of our differences in beliefs. ie. Islam and Christianity having different goals and agendas, or perspectives on reality.

Perhaps it will help me if you can explain to me what it means to you to say "in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost"? This is where we get the idea from that you place partners with G-d.

Ok . . . what it means for me. My view on "the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit" has changed over time. My present view is this. First of all, they are names and words used to represent ideas/concepts associated with God, but don't necessarily define God. The words that appear in the New Testament may appear to "hint" at some relationship between the concepts, but there is no conclusive definition of such a relationship or a definition of these three concepts. I wonder and doubt if there is a definition at all offered in the New Testament.

I am aware that "separation" implies "partners." That's what a Muslim often says in response. But yet I have not even defined them as "separate entities." The question I would ask now is, do the three names necessarily refer to three "separate entities?" What are names used for? To me, "Father" and "Holy Spirit" are both references to God. Let's suppose your father is the Prime Minister of the country. To you, he's a father. To the rest of the country, he's the Prime Minister. Same entity. Same person. Different roles. God may be seen as both "Father" and "Holy Spirit" -- a Father and a Spirit that is Holy. "Son" is more likely to be a point of contention. Quite recently, I've been thinking of "the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit" as really a list of words describing one's "experience of God." One experiences God through the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are not parts or aspects of God, but an experience and perception of God. But I guess I still have to put an "identity" on "the Son," and I could well get into hot water for this.

To me there's a prevailing notion, in the NT, of Jesus somehow being part of an experience of God, and that the NT was written because of that experience of God. Whether it was because he was a good man, healed the sick and fed the poor, helped solve people's problems, gave good advice or had deep connections in the community, I can't really say. All I can say is, there was something special about that guy that motivated people to write about him.

The common view in Christianity is that Jesus was God trapped in a man's body. That's primarily what draws comments about Christianity "assigning partners" to God or depicting God as a Being that takes forms. But a lot of people are prepared to consider other ways of conceptualising Jesus. Some have suggested that "Son" as in "Son of God" or "Son of Man" was just a title. What if that was what "Son" meant? What if Jesus was just an "Actor" playing out the function and role of God? That's not the same as God taking forms. That's God delegating His own function and role to someone else. This could be a point of similarity between Jesus and Mohammed, where Jesus and Mohammed were sent to "convey" something. God delegates His own function and role to someone else. In Islam, God was the law-giver who passed on His Law to Mohammed, who gave the Law to the people -- in turn, playing out the role of God. So in Islam Mohammed was a Messenger. What if the Jesus in Christianity was an Actor?

What if "Son" means "Delegate?" "Son of God" is a Delegate from God. "Son of Man" is a Delegate to Man. The "sons of God" -- the angels and God's people, are also delegates of God.

No definitions here. Once again, no guarantees or warranties.

 

[Saltmeister]

Hi Muslimwoman,

The reply was going to be too long so I cut it in two.

Perhaps this is where we differ? As a Christian I was taught that G-d is my ultimate Father and He is very loving.

I think "Father" could be seen as much more than a notion of a human father. The notion of a human father would be a rather limiting concept indeed. Actually, there are some instances in the Old Testament/Tanakh where "father" may have different meanings. When King David called King Saul his "father" he may have meant either "master" or "father-in-law." When Elijah is taken up into heaven, Elisha calls him "father." Again, I believe it means "master" in that context. The word "father" may be used to address the "leader of a cause," such as a movement, religion, founder of a nation or just a family. "Father" could also be used to mean "provider."

In this sense, "Father" in Christianity" could mean "master" as well as "provider." When I think of the word "Father," I actually think of a fountain of water rather than my Dad. Yes, that's right. I think of God, my Father, as a fountain of holiness, goodness and purity. It's the best metaphor I had in mind.

When I pray I am actually in the presence of Allah, to worship Him and thank Him and humbly request that He shows me the right path. The only way I can describe it is that I aim for my soul to go to heaven and prostrate before the Creator. This is why we ensure absolute cleanliness, I wear my best clothes which I reserve for prayer and I humble myself in prayer.

Wow okay that is a really big difference. For us prayer is about worshipping G-d, supplication to Him not building a personal relationship with Him.

Ok, so maybe there was something heavenly about it, the distinction being a Christian's pursuit of something personal with God . . .

How on earth can you know G-d intimately? He's not our mate, He is the ultimate Master and Lord of everything. G-d is unknowable, He is beyond human perception and forgive me I am not trying to be rude but it seems rather disrespectful to suggest you can have a personal relationship with G-d.

I don't really understand what you mean by personal knowledge. We are mere humans and we cannot know anything of G-d. Our hearts can know that G-d exists and our hearts can glimpse a sense of Him but when you say "knowledge" it suggests an understanding and that is simply not possible.

Oh no...don't get me wrong. I was saying he's undefinable, but knowable and understandable in a "personal sense." He maybe an infinite God, but still capable of making Himself understood. We may never be able to comprehend His infinite wisdom and knowledge, but on really personal matters, that may be different The Bible/Quran, for example, is God making His intentions known. The idea is not about comprehending God in entirety and totality. That obviously can't be done. The idea is God revealing what's important to us.

It's like if God was a tall man, then God interacting with us on a personal level is God coming down to our level of understanding. It's a bit like you and I speaking to a child. It's "personal" in the sense that it's put in the context of a person. Personal does not mean I know all about someone. I know what's relevant to me. God knows all about me, I don't know all about God, but God can share what's important to me. God knows what we want and need. When we talk to God, He may, perhaps share some important with us based on those wants/needs.

Sorry I am a bit lost for words, my brain is fusing a little. Are you just talking about the connection you feel with G-d during prayer?

OMG are you suggesting G-d speaks to Christians through prayer???? Will the whole Chrisitan world become Prophets?

It's not exactly something I have done. It's more of a theory.

A lot of Christian groups have tried this, search on the Internet and you might find some. They pursue an experience of God and try, somehow to connect with God. I would say it's an ideal in Christianity that, I suppose, is realised only for a very few people. It's a dream. Pursuit of a connection with God may lead some in the wrong direction. People receive a feeling of connecting with God, but there is no actual connection. I'm aware of the pitfalls.

But I believe it's possible if one sets up certain conditions that make such a connection possible, or rather, make us "more compatible" with God. When I was a kid, my mother, a Christian woman, used to get me to pray every day and night. Now that I've grown up, I've grown out of it. But I remember her telling me, from time to time, that if you devote yourself to God (ie. reading the Bible, praying every day), one day you might hear Him speaking to you. You create the right conditions for a connection with God rather than pursuing a feeling of a connection.

I dropped out of a prayer habit in the last years of high school. But I believe I prayed for the wrong reasons -- it was a habit and routine. It was not devotion to God. Actually, it was a nervous habit where I asked God to help me get good marks on a test, essay, assignment or exam. Please help me to get an A+!!!! Now that I'm older, I'm thinking I have better reasons to pray than just getting through life's problems.

You, being Muslim, might be more in tune with "the conditions" as I understand you pray five times a day. Whether it's something personal . . . hmmm . . . may be up to you. It's between you and God. You and God must have an understanding. My mother is now dead. But I believe my mother for what she said. I doubt whether she would have said that if she didn't believe it herself. So one of my personal endeavours is to seek to find out the truth of what she said. That's kind of where I'm heading now.

I am actually speachless. Seriously it took me 5 minutes before I could start typing again. We are talking about G-d, you cannot achieve unity with Him.

Unity . . . not Oneness!!! Not the same thing.

Picture this. Imagine if we all lived in one house. That would be unity. Now imagine if God Himself was the home. Home sweet home. We are all where we always wanted to be.

Sorry I am reading this as I answer each bit and it keeps getting worse. The names you mention are all Prophets (pbut) of G-d, He spoke to each of them either through angels or directly. We cannot achieve that through prayer. Prophets were chosen by G-d, are you saying all Christians have been chosen by G-d for this special task, to recieve the word of G-d?

God spoke to some of them through dreams . . . But anyhow, I don't think God can only speak to us through our eyes and ears. What about putting thoughts in our minds?

 

[paganprophet]

--Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

How on earth can you know G-d intimately? He's not our mate, He is the ultimate Master and Lord of everything. G-d is unknowable, He is beyond human perception and forgive me I am not trying to be rude but it seems rather disrespectful to suggest you can have a personal relationship with G-d.

I don't really understand what you mean by personal knowledge. We are mere humans and we cannot know anything of G-d. Our hearts can know that G-d exists and our hearts can glimpse a sense of Him but when you say "knowledge" it suggests an understanding and that is simply not possible.

Muslimwoman, your statement reflects an opinion I have of Muhammad's Islam--that Muhammad has taught Muslims that Allah cannot be reached personally by each and every Muslim. They must rely on Muhammad only for their spiritual guidance. This means God for Muslims is the same as Muhammad's mind--any separate relationship is unthinkable. This of course will and has inevitably made Muhammad into a virtual idol as is his book and we see this idolization in the fury of Muslims when their idols, Muhammad and his Quran, are mocked by non-Muslims.

If I were a prophet with Napoleonic earthly territorial control ambitions, what better way to insure my power over believers even from the grave than to place a prohibition on any other spiritual vision but my own. When people are ready for the Spirit of Truth in prophesy bearing, we will be here..

 

[pattimax]

Christianity is not a reasonable faith. Never has been, never will be. Those that claim such, are in error. I would spare you the preconception of such error.
...

I wasn't closely following the argument, so maybe this statement is related to something else.

Merriam Webster:
Reason- 1 a: a statement offered in explanation or justification b: a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon> c: a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense

"Apologia" comes to mind.

 

[Quahom1]

I wasn't closely following the argument, so maybe this statement is related to something else.

Merriam Webster:
Reason- 1 a: a statement offered in explanation or justification b: a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon> c: a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense

"Apologia" comes to mind.

Well, ok. Let's look at the "reasonableness" of Christianity. 2000 years ago, a man walks no more than 200 miles from his place of birth, talks about money, Heaven, hell, taxes, Ceasar, His father, and love. Oh, yeah one other small thing. He says "trust in me and I will take you to God the Father, I will give you living water, I will give you the bread of life, I am the light, the truth and the way."

Then He goes and does (we are told), things like walking on water, spitting on dirt and rubbing the mud in peoples' eyes, so they can see, telling carreer fishermen they are fishing in the wrong spot, convincing same said fishermen to drop everything (including families, jobs, friends), and follow Him around like puppy dogs anticipating treats from the master, rebuilding peoples' legs with just a touch, hell even touching his robes brought healing to people doctors today can't fix!

Then! He dies, and three days later, He's up and about again! Only He glows in the dark, and walks through walls, and can make Himself unrecognizable to even the closest of His friends, one second, then Voila!, they know Him the next second. Finally, He hitches a ride with a cloud while a bevy of angels sing the hallelujah chorus, that some can hear, while others hear only thunder...

Two thousand years later, He still has followers throughout the world, though not one has physically seen this man. They put their lives on the line for Him, their very souls even...

Now, I ask you. Where is the logic (apologia) in that? There is none, yet we (I personally), still believe...And it is such a strong belief, that it is more like knowledge, obtained with no discernable prelude of facts. It is intuition in the strongest sense of the word.

Only not everybody has it. And most that do, doubt or second guess it.

Christianity transcends logic.

A joke here, but also serious: Why do you think Mr. Spock (our pillar of logic), always deffered to his Captain's hunches? Because of his track record for being right, it was only logical...

v/r

Joshua
everything I ever needed to know in life, I learned from Star Trek...

 

[pattimax]

… do not forget, He wasn’t just a man, he was God. He came to earth because the human species needed a final sacrifice to atone for sin. When you take into account all of the unneeded directions that man was and still is searching for it is very reasonable.
The Lord provides.

a statement offered in explanation or justification b: a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon> c: a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense



Christianity is complete. It is very logical. It clarifies values, eliminates moral mayhem, because unlike other forms of belief, it promises eternal life without having to work for it. But that doesn’t stop man from trying.


Did you skip kindergarten?

 

[pattimax]

I think...
Spock paid attention to the Captain because of his track record. That record revealed that he (the Captain) knew what he was doing. It was very logical. lol

 

[Quahom1]

… do not forget, He wasn’t just a man, he was God. He came to earth because the human species needed a final sacrifice to atone for sin. When you take into account all of the unneeded directions that man was and still is searching for it is very reasonable.
The Lord provides.

a statement offered in explanation or justification b: a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon> c: a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense



Christianity is complete. It is very logical. It clarifies values, eliminates moral mayhem, because unlike other forms of belief, it promises eternal life without having to work for it. But that doesn’t stop man from trying.


Did you skip kindergarten?

ok (hands up). I'm not here to start a temperal cold war.

and yes I did skip Kindergarten, and third grade too...

 

[Quahom1]

I think...
Spock paid attention to the Captain because of his track record. That record revealed that he (the Captain) knew what he was doing. It was very logical. lol

I hear you...

v/r

Joshua