if hell was real

As I was watching my local soccer side win their latest home game at a cantor, I gave some thought to this. I remembered the "logic" of the Inquisition being explained.....................That correct belief was indispensible for salvation and therefore heretics - and non-believers - were going to Hell. To leave them alive and free would be to leave them capable of indoctrinating others in their own lies - therefore they must be silenced. To burn them at the stake was in many ways a mercy, as if they did not repent they would only be gaining a foretaste of what was to be their fate for Eternity - what difference does a few extra minutes make when all eternity awaits? Yet if the pain of the flames did indeed cause a change of heart and repentance, then what a blessing! So much for the logic. Anyway, I did think that if hell was real there is a good deal of sense in this.

And some other thoughts. The lines of soldiers at the Somme, mown down by a sweep of a machine gun. All sons, many brothers, fathers.........dropping to an eternity of pain, of alienation from the Heart of the universe. Well, unless they had conformed to a particular doctrine of course. And those who met their deaths in the death camps of Auschwitz, Treblinka etc. Men, women and children. Mostly of the Jewish Faith, so we can at least assume the ultimate destiny of many of them.......if hell be real.

I don't know..............

I do remember reading a book once, an exchange of views between the Liberal Christian David Edwards and the Christian Conservative/Fundamantalist John Stott. The discussion and exchange was amiable - sadly, in direct contrast to many of the exchanges on this forum - and was worth a read. In relation to this thread, the discussion concerning the eternity of Hell was relevant. John Stott spoke of the deep pain he felt within his own heart at the thought of the suffering of others in Hell; after affirming the traditional doctrine he then spoke of the possibility of exploring the idea of "conditioned immortality", where the lost eventually cease to exist. He recognised, however, the difficulties of squaring such a teaching with the traditional understanding of the words of the Bible. From my own perspective, such deep pain felt within speaks of the profound redemption working within the heart of John Stott.

Now is not the time or place to speak of my own Pure Land Buddhist teachings in any detail. But I would just say that the "deep pain" within the heart of John Stott would testify to the idea that "what comes to one must come to all". That no individual can be "saved" (using Christian terminology) without it involving the salvation of all. Only when the last have entered the gate will we enter ourselves and close the door behind us. Well, in neutral language, that's the idea of the Bodhisattva.

I find I still have much "heart-work" to do, recognising the spite and so forth within me when relating to others. And the bigotry within when I hear of opinions other than my own. Yet the ideal is there, and it is one I recognise and believe is true to the full depths of my humanity. If such an ideal is not to be found in Christianity or the Bible, then so much the worse for them.

So long as space abides
So long as time abides
So too may I abide
Relieving the sufferings of the world (Bodhicaryavattara of Shantideva)

...and..

Compassion speaks and sayeth:
Can you be saved
Yet see the whole world suffer?
Can you feel joy
Yet hear the whole world cry? (The Voice of the Silence)
 
Tariki said:
Now is not the time or place to speak of my own Pure Land Buddhist teachings in any detail. But I would just say that the "deep pain" within the heart of John Stott would testify to the idea that "what comes to one must come to all". That no individual can be "saved" (using Christian terminology) without it involving the salvation of all. Only when the last have entered the gate will we enter ourselves and close the door behind us. Well, in neutral language, that's the idea of the Bodhisattva.

I find I still have much "heart-work" to do, recognising the spite and so forth within me when relating to others. And the bigotry within when I hear of opinions other than my own. Yet the ideal is there, and it is one I recognise and believe is true to the full depths of my humanity. If such an ideal is not to be found in Christianity or the Bible, then so much the worse for them.
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I see where you are coming from, alas that is not the way of the world, nor of heaven and hell, as day to day reality points out.

In 1943 the USA(T) Dorchester was struck by U-233's torpedo and sank. Of the 904 on board only 230 men were saved. But if it weren't for the actions of four Army Chaplains there may have be less than 200. After 226 men had life jackets, the chaplains gave their four to four sailors, and they deliberately stayed behind, and were lost to the deep.

"As I swam away from the ship , I looked back. The flares had lighted everything. The bow came up high and she slid under. The last thing I saw, the Four Chaplins were up there praying for the safety of the men. They had done everything they could. I did not see them again. They themselves did not have a chance without their life jackets."

As much as we would want or hope, not all can be saved, but that doesn't mean those who were saved, aren't really saved because the rest are not, because they are. That is the fact of Christian belief. Some will not be saved. Some will be saved, and some because of the actions of others, will be given grace, where as they would have been lost.

We do not understand the wisdom of the Supreme Creator in this issue, but as Christians we trust that all is for the best, and for a reason. There are times when we can not lean on our own understanding of things, as we can't see the big picture.

With people like Mr. Scott however, the drive and desire to give every human a chance to be saved, is what Jesus hopes all of Christendom would have, and therefore the potential for a great majority of humanity to be kept from the deep, is then possible.

As for those who have never heard of Christ and His promise of salvation, I suspect that before Judgement, those will be told the story of salvation, and will have a chance to choose, (if the potential was in their souls to begin with).

For it is said that all will bow befor Christ and call Him Lord, in the end. All will know the truth.

v/r

Josh
 
Quahom1,

Thanks for your response to my post.

I would only say that just as there are the "facts" of Christian belief, there are also the "facts" of Buddhist belief. And such "facts" are open to endless interpretation and understanding......................(I.e. there are many Christian Universalists)

"All will know the truth". Perhaps, and it would be unwise to presume that such Truth will necessarily be our own! (As you quite rightly imply yourself within your post)

As far as the actual "ways of the world" are concerned, and just what they may or may not conform to, again, this is open to endless interpretation.

Once again, for me, the Bodhisattva ideal - with all its implications - speaks to the full depths of my own humanity. And according to the guidance and grace I have received within my own experience, I understand it as also conforming to the intent and Will of the Heart of Reality.
 
moseslmpg said:
That said, was that quote about Hell literal? .
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i am glad to say that Jehovahs witnesses stick to true bible teachings ,and there is no such thing as a litral hellfire teaching in the bible . many people say many things about Jehovahs witnesses that are not according to accurate knowledge. any serious bible student will know that Jehovahs witnesses do not teach manmade tradtions such as hellfire. we stick to the teaching of Jesus .
"Hellfire" has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries but it is not according to accurate knowledge. i am glad to say that Jehovahs witnesses have not been led along to take on this false teaching. and many people do many things to those who dont take on manmade tradtions.
 
Dor said:
We have to remember the Watchtower are allowed to change there mind alot.
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i am glad to say that Jehovahs people have never taken on the manmade tradition of hellfire and never will. :) the truth sets us free from manmade traditions ,the truth of Gods word the bible...... it is very Good
 
Faithfulservant said:
God doesnt torture anyone.. and who are you to say what God does or does not do... pretty arrogant if you ask me.
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yes i agree God does not torture anyone with a litral hellfire , it is not a bible teaching it is manmade tradition ,and many have been led along to believe manmade tradition
 
HAVE you been told that the early Church Fathers, medieval theologians, and Reformers argued that the torments experienced in hell are everlasting? If so, it may surprise you to know that some highly regarded Bible scholars are now challenging that view. In Britain, one of them, John R. W. Stott, writes that "Scripture points in the direction of annihilation, and that ‘eternal conscious torment’ is a tradition which has to yield to the supreme authority of Scripture."—Essentials—A Liberal-Evangelical Dialogue.
 
mee said:
i am glad to say that Jehovahs people have never taken on the manmade tradition of hellfire and never will. :) the truth sets us free from manmade traditions ,the truth of Gods word the bible...... it is very Good
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there may not be hellfire right now, but i will have you know that there will be for it has been prophecied in Revelation.


Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

i can go on and on, but i won't, but instead just quote the Creator of heaven and earth, our Father in heaven,

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

now, that is a reason to fear our Father in heaven, praise and glory be unto His name, from everlasting to everlasting. Amen and amen.
 
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LeoSalinas22 said:
there may not be hellfire right now, but i will have you know that there will be for it has been prophecied in Revelation.


Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

i can go on and on, but i won't, but instead just quote the Creator of heaven and earth, our Father in heaven,

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

now, that is a reason to fear our Father in heaven, praise and glory be unto His name, from everlasting to everlasting. Amen and amen.
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having an accurate knowledge about what the symbolisim means in the book of revelation works wonders to our understanding of it.do not be misled to believe that the lake of fire is litral .accurate understanding of the symbolisims frees us from false teachings. the book of revelation ,is now in the Lords day being revealed and uncovered. and what a wonderful hope we are looking forward to.
And the One seated on the throne said: "Look! I am making all things new." Also, he says: "Write, because these words are faithful and true. revelation 21;5 many blessings are in store for those who listen to the prophecy. but those who dont want to listen will be cutt-off . the lake of fire is a symbolisim .
This [lake of fire] means the second death"—death from which there is no hope of coming back to life.—Revelation 20:14. listening to the right channel leads to accurate understanding. matthew 24;45-47 and it is straight from Jesus , it is good food and very tasty indeed.
 
mee said:
having an accurate knowledge about what the symbolisim means in the book of revelation works wonders to our understanding of it.do not be misled to believe that the lake of fire is litral .accurate understanding of the symbolisims frees us from false teachings. the book of revelation ,is now in the Lords day being revealed and uncovered. and what a wonderful hope we are looking forward to.
And the One seated on the throne said: "Look! I am making all things new." Also, he says: "Write, because these words are faithful and true. revelation 21;5 many blessings are in store for those who listen to the prophecy. but those who dont want to listen will be cutt-off . the lake of fire is a symbolisim .
This [lake of fire] means the second death"—death from which there is no hope of coming back to life.—Revelation 20:14. listening to the right channel leads to accurate understanding. matthew 24;45-47 and it is straight from Jesus , it is good food and very tasty indeed.
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i knew you would say that, mee. so what does the feeling of torment for eternity symbolize then?
 
LeoSalinas22 said:
i knew you would say that, mee. so what does the feeling of torment for eternity symbolize then?
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"And​
​
they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Revelation 20:10b) What could this mean? it is not logical to say that symbols, such as the wild beast and the false prophet, as well as death and Hades, could suffer torture in a literal way. Hence, we have no reason to believe that Satan will be suffering for all eternity. He is to be annihilated.​
The Greek word used here for "torment," ba·sa·ni´zo, means primarily "to test (metals) by the touchstone." "To question by applying torture" is a second meaning. (The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) In the context, the use of this Greek word indicates that what happens to Satan will serve, for all eternity, as a touchstone on the issue of the rightness and righteousness of Jehovah’s rule. That issue of sovereign rulership will have been settled once and for all time. Never again will a challenge to Jehovah’s sovereignty need to be tested over an extended period of time in order to be proved wrong
 
Revelation 14:9-11 speaks of some who are "tormented with fire and sulphur . . . And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever." Does this prove eternal conscious torment in hellfire? Actually, all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the smoke—the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction—that continues forever, not the fiery torment.
 
Revelation 20:10-15 says that in "the lake of fire and sulphur, . . . they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." At first reading, this might sound like proof of eternal conscious torment by fire, but it definitely is not. Why? Among other reasons, "the wild beast and the false prophet" and "death and Hades" will end up in what is here called "the lake of fire." As you may easily conclude, the beast, the false prophet, death, and Hades are not literal persons; therefore, they cannot experience conscious torment. Instead, writes G. B. Caird in A Commentary on the Revelation of St. John the Divine, "the lake of fire" means "extinction and total oblivion." This realization should be easily reached, for the Bible itself states about this lake of fire: "This means the second death, the lake of fire."—Revelation 20:14.
 
I don't understand how you could do that, man. everything you have explained to me is from information you got from another source. i guess, the answer i was expecting was going to be from mee, and not from something some other dude wrote. what you have just explained to me, is this from your heart? is this from the Holy Spirit?
 
You know, I never really thought much about hell. I was always thinking about heaven.

But "Your first 6 days in hell" in Dor's post was pretty much how I would have imagined it.
 
LeoSalinas22 said:
I don't understand how you could do that, man. everything you have explained to me is from information you got from another source. i guess, the answer i was expecting was going to be from mee, and not from something some other dude wrote. what you have just explained to me, is this from your heart? is this from the Holy Spirit?
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accurate knowledge is enlighting indeed. and true knowledge is now abundant in the last days Daniel 12;4 going to the channel of accurate knowledge means we are feeding from Jesus hand matthew 24;45-47 nice:)
 
mee said:
accurate knowledge is enlighting indeed. and true knowledge is now abundant in the last days Daniel 12;4 going to the channel of accurate knowledge means we are feeding from Jesus hand matthew 24;45-47 nice:)
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i thought that in Daniel 12:4, the knowledge they speak of is man's advancement in sin, i mean science and art. (sorry, my bad). and the going "to and fro" reminds me alot of what the adversary tells our Father where he has been, in Job 1:7. in other words, this knowledge you speak of is not knowledge of God or of His Truth for it would say "knowledge of God shall be increased". but it doesn't say that. 'sides, what place is Christ talking about when he says,
Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
where will they be when there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? or is that also symbolic?
 
LeoSalinas22 said:
i thought that in Daniel 12:4, the knowledge they speak of is man's advancement in sin, i mean science and art. (sorry, my bad). and the going "to and fro" reminds me alot of what the adversary tells our Father where he has been, in Job 1:7. in other words, this knowledge you speak of is not knowledge of God or of His Truth for it would say "knowledge of God shall be increased". but it doesn't say that. 'sides, what place is Christ talking about when he says,
Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
where will they be when there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? or is that also symbolic?
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daniel 12;4 is refering to knowledge , true knowledge based on the bible and the prophecies in the bible that are happening to day . when it says that there is roving around it means that sincere bible students have roved around the pages of the bible and now the true knowledge is abundant . and it is all happening in the last days . the last days started in 1914 when Jesus was given the kingship in the heavenly kingdom goverment Daniel 2;44 daniel 7;13-14and it is all to do with bible prophecy and chronology. and bible prophecy is now well along in this time of the end . and true knowledge is very abundant. notice it says in the verse seal up the book , bible prophecy was sealed up but now in this time of the end it is well and truely opened up ...............regarding matthew 24;50 this is talking about the evil slave class , not the faithful slave class ,at one time these evil ones were with the faithful ones but they turned bad and even started to turn against the faithful ones. and it will not be a good outcome for them.
 
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