Alternative christian sects section?

The purpose of this forum is discussions of Christianity from the Christian point of view.. its not a free for all for anyone to come here and tell us that we are wrong. If you would like to know what we think and believe then hey... ask your questions.. or present your ideas... but once you hear our opinion of those ideas.. then thats it.. you dont have the right to continue on in attack mode...

If you dont like it then Im sure you can find somewhere else to post your superior knowledge and earthly wisdom because here its just rude and arrogant.

End of Discussion on my part.
 
cyberpi said:
Why do you say that I reject anything that Jesus (pbuh) did for people? Do I reject anything by saying that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was a Christian who defined Christianity for people? Or does someone reject by saying that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was NOT a Christian?

Ok prove me wrong.....Is Jesus God? Did jesus get crucified, die and resurect 3 days later?
 
OK, guys, this is a part I'm struggling to make sense of. Does it really make any difference who is "right" and who is "wrong" on a matter like this? I would think this is a trivial thing that has absolutely no bearing on salvation, or how any one of us will answer G-d when we stand before Him in judgement and He asks "what have you done for me?"

All of you have heartfelt beliefs. Cool. Go with it...what do you do for G-d with those beliefs? Argue with others? What purpose does that serve? Does that not fuel the very warlike prejudicial hatreds and enmity not only between faiths, but between denominations of the same faith? do we stand before G-d at the Great White Throne and say, "I argued the daylights out of all the other non-belivers, Lord!" What do we reply when He tells us, "Yeah, well, you were pretty much on target, but you missed the high notes. And that means you weren't quite as right as you thought you were in your judgement of others. Come to think of it, I seem to remember asking you not to judge others. But since you did, we've got no choice but to judge you by the same set of standards you held others to...hmmm, let's see here...look's like you insisted on perfection...and guess what, you didn't hit that mark. By your own judgement you are judged wanting...ooops, sorry...next please."

Right and wrong is important to the point that we all must have an internal guide. But the days of homogenized societies are long gone. Now we have whole nations built of multiple cultures, not so much a melting pot as a patchwork quilt, as I've heard others allude to. These multiple cultures struggle in their history to accept each other, and over time they get better at it. But the biggest obstacle to overcome is prejudicial judgement. Who cares who is right and who is wrong, G-d will sort it out. The key thing is to do *your* best to do what you understand as right, and leave the judgement to G-d.

Jesus was born and raised a Jew.

Whether He could be said to be the first Christian depends on semantics. If "Christian" equals "Christlike", then it could be argued that as the prototype model for being Christ, then I guess it could be said He is the first Christian, by definition. However, by this definition, one must of necessity exclude His followers, because they were not and are not Christs. Now, if by the term "Christian" one means "follower of Christ," then it stands to reason that those who followed Christ are Christians, but the leader is not the follower, therefore Christ in this sense cannot be called the first Christian.

It really is a dumb argument, with no relation to salvation or peaceful interaction. Why waste the effort?
 
Faithfulservant said:
The purpose of this forum is discussions of Christianity from the Christian point of view.. its not a free for all for anyone to come here and tell us that we are wrong. If you would like to know what we think and believe then hey... ask your questions.. or present your ideas... but once you hear our opinion of those ideas.. then thats it.. you dont have the right to continue on in attack mode...

If you dont like it then Im sure you can find somewhere else to post your superior knowledge and earthly wisdom because here its just rude and arrogant.

End of Discussion on my part.
Who is WE? Who is it that you think you speak for besides yourself? By your judgement then am I not a Christian? I'm sorry that you feel your beliefs are attacked... how is that possible? How does what I say hurt you? Am I persecuting you? Why does it hurt when I say that I think Jesus (pbuh) was a Christian who defined Christianity? I'm stumped... please help me understand. Why does that bother you? Why do you call that rude and arrogant?

Dor said:
Ok prove me wrong.....Is Jesus God? Did jesus get crucified, die and resurect 3 days later?
Who can prove a question wrong? To answer your questions, per the Gospels: No, Jesus (pbuh) is not God (swt). Yes, Jesus (pbuh) was crucifed, the body died, and was resurrected.
 
juantoo3 said:
OK, guys, this is a part I'm struggling to make sense of. Does it really make any difference who is "right" and who is "wrong" on a matter like this? I would think this is a trivial thing that has absolutely no bearing on salvation, or how any one of us will answer G-d when we stand before Him in judgement and He asks "what have you done for me?"

All of you have heartfelt beliefs. Cool. Go with it...what do you do for G-d with those beliefs? Argue with others? What purpose does that serve? Does that not fuel the very warlike prejudicial hatreds and enmity not only between faiths, but between denominations of the same faith? do we stand before G-d at the Great White Throne and say, "I argued the daylights out of all the other non-belivers, Lord!" What do we reply when He tells us, "Yeah, well, you were pretty much on target, but you missed the high notes. And that means you weren't quite as right as you thought you were in your judgement of others. Come to think of it, I seem to remember asking you not to judge others. But since you did, we've got no choice but to judge you by the same set of standards you held others to...hmmm, let's see here...look's like you insisted on perfection...and guess what, you didn't hit that mark. By your own judgement you are judged wanting...ooops, sorry...next please."

Right and wrong is important to the point that we all must have an internal guide. But the days of homogenized societies are long gone. Now we have whole nations built of multiple cultures, not so much a melting pot as a patchwork quilt, as I've heard others allude to. These multiple cultures struggle in their history to accept each other, and over time they get better at it. But the biggest obstacle to overcome is prejudicial judgement. Who cares who is right and who is wrong, G-d will sort it out. The key thing is to do *your* best to do what you understand as right, and leave the judgement to G-d.

Jesus was born and raised a Jew.

Whether He could be said to be the first Christian depends on semantics. If "Christian" equals "Christlike", then it could be argued that as the prototype model for being Christ, then I guess it could be said He is the first Christian, by definition. However, by this definition, one must of necessity exclude His followers, because they were not and are not Christs. Now, if by the term "Christian" one means "follower of Christ," then it stands to reason that those who followed Christ are Christians, but the leader is not the follower, therefore Christ in this sense cannot be called the first Christian.

It really is a dumb argument, with no relation to salvation or peaceful interaction. Why waste the effort?

You're right... This is one of those times where I let it become personal. I see this guy continue to disrespect people like Q and I let it get to me.
 
juantoo3 said:
  1. Right and wrong is important to the point that we all must have an internal guide. But the days of homogenized societies are long gone. Now we have whole nations built of multiple cultures, not so much a melting pot as a patchwork quilt, as I've heard others allude to. These multiple cultures struggle in their history to accept each other, and over time they get better at it. But the biggest obstacle to overcome is prejudicial judgement. Who cares who is right and who is wrong, G-d will sort it out. The key thing is to do *your* best to do what you understand as right, and leave the judgement to G-d.
  2. Jesus was born and raised a Jew.Whether He could be said to be the first Christian depends on semantics. If "Christian" equals "Christlike", then it could be argued that as the prototype model for being Christ, then I guess it could be said He is the first Christian, by definition. However, by this definition, one must of necessity exclude His followers, because they were not and are not Christs. Now, if by the term "Christian" one means "follower of Christ," then it stands to reason that those who followed Christ are Christians, but the leader is not the follower, therefore Christ in this sense cannot be called the first Christian.quote]
juantoo3!
Man, your are full of wisdom.You write great points, I appreciate both the above point very munch.
 
cyberpi said:
I'm sorry, but if anyone has been wrongly insulted here it has been Jesus Christ (pbuh). How many people on this thread think or say that Jesus Christ was NOT a Christian?quote]

Jesus Christ was the penultimate Christian (as a prototype).
 
juantoo3 said:
Does it really make any difference who is "right" and who is "wrong" on a matter like this? I would think this is a trivial thing that has absolutely no bearing on salvation, or how any one of us will answer G-d when we stand before Him in judgement and He asks "what have you done for me?"

Relating to the purpose of this thread, my original post was in response to Prober:

cyberpi said:
Amen. Christ (pbuh) and God (swt) defines Christianity... not the other way around. Frankly I don't get this division with 'liberal christianity' either. The real division person to person is between the person and person. All the rest is just categorization and classification... the majority of which people are not learned enough to really comprehend anyway. I certainly don't.

To which Q responded, "No. Christ was not a Christian..."

But the relevance I find in the statement, "Christ (pbuh) defines Christianity" is that people do struggle and argue with the definition of who or what a Christian or Christianity is. If someone makes an 'alternative' or 'Liberal' Christian sect section, then they are just trying to define what a Christian is and to categorize the beliefs of others by it. The desire is to separate alledged Christian sects from alledged non-Christian sects... or to separate "WE" from "THEM". I don't recognize those divisions. They are NOT the divisions that Jesus described in the Gospels. I don't see where Jesus (pbuh) defined an alternative Christian. I don't see where he defined a Liberal or a Conservative Christian. I am reminded of the guy in the movie, "Kingdom of Heaven" that says something like, "I suppose there is a use for THAT form of Christianity." So I say with conviction that it is Jesus Christ (pbuh) who defines what a Christian is. Nobody here... take the argument to him.

So my advice to this forum is that if posts get clogged into repeating subjects, then just break the forum into sub-forums based on those subjects, rather than by sect. Like: Trinity, Paul, EOD, abortion, SOG vs isG, what is Holy Spirit, other Gospels...whatever. They are recurring themes. Rather than define something truly obscure like a 'liberal Christian' and placing it outside of the Abrahamic religions all together as some sort of delinquent child, I'd vote to bring it back in and to organize sub-forums by subjects rather than by sects. Invite any and all people to discuss issue by issue... because the reality is that it IS a free-for-all. Life is a free-for-all. When it becomes controversial and the debate is whether a subject is within or outside of Christianity, then I think the test is simple: Is there a quote or verse from Jesus (pbuh) that you think provides guidance? Error on the side of lenience and compassion.

I find some relevance and corresponding verses in the Gospels in a couple of the listed 'alternative' sects that I'd like to discuss someday. Not now. Perhaps nobody here is performing miracles, but I find the following verses relevant to these differences between alledged Christian sects:

Mark 9:38-41 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward."

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
 
Prober said:
How can there be "alternative Christians"?

Christians are Christians.

There may be some differences of opinion along the way, but we're all still brothers!

Quahom1 said:
There is no such thing as an alternative Christian. Christians are known by the fruit they bear, not by their title.

There is a them, and an us in this world, sadly enough.

How can there not be "alternative Christians?" What exactly does one mean by alternative?

Do you believe in the existence of extraterrestrials, beings that we call "aliens"? I suppose there's a possibility of them existing.

Even if "aliens" didn't exist, that doesn't mean that the concept is false.

Humans call extraterrestrials "aliens." The same extraterrestrials may call us "aliens." The word "alien" refers to anything considered foreign and strange. It's likely that our culture, habits and way of thinking will be completely different to those of extraterrestrials.

Same with the word "alternative." How can we deny the existence of "alternative Christians" if they live on the same planet? Sure they exist!!! They have beliefs that are different to the ones we have. They might not be beings from outer space, but they certainly have a different culture and way of thinking to what we have.

We all come from different walks of life and see things differently. This is what I mean by "alternative." All "Christians" have a common agenda but have a different approach to it. Christians have a common spiritual leader -- Christ. That is what makes them Christian. It's just that they might have a different spiritual path/walk with God and Christ. This is what I meant by "alternatives."

There's a difference between "alternatives" inside of Christianity and "alternatives" outside of Christianity. The point is to know the difference between the two . . .

If you're into disputing groups like the LDS Church, Sun Myung Moon's Moonie sect, Christian Science, Church of Scientology, etc., I think it just depends on whether the idea is the promotion of an organisation or technical concept at the expense of Christ. Otherwise all is well.
 
Faithfulservant said:
The purpose of this forum is discussions of Christianity from the Christian point of view.. its not a free for all for anyone to come here and tell us that we are wrong. If you would like to know what we think and believe then hey... ask your questions.. or present your ideas... but once you hear our opinion of those ideas.. then thats it.. you dont have the right to continue on in attack mode...

If you dont like it then Im sure you can find somewhere else to post your superior knowledge and earthly wisdom because here its just rude and arrogant.

End of Discussion on my part.
Namaste Faithful Servant...

I tend to agree. The rules for this section are quite clear. There are certain tenents that this section takes as 'gospel' and those are sacred. Then there is a whole field of nuance to be discussed. As I see it anyone can discuss the nuance here, while respecting the tenents. ie you can't rip anyones carpet out from under them in any of the walled gardens. If you want to say their religion is poppycock, then go do it from someplace else...but it obviously won't spur intelligent discussion...just more knife throwing and sabre rattlin.

Now on the Liberal board...in my view, and only my view, you can discuss anything pertaining to Christianity, you can question anything...I think that leads to growth and understanding. But what you can't/shouldn't do is indicate that someone is wrong and you are right because of a tenent that is accepted someplace else...this is discussion.

I could be naive, but I think we can all play fair....if we can't, who can?
 
Saltmeister said:
Same with the word "alternative." How can we deny the existence of "alternative Christians" if they live on the same planet? Sure they exist!!! They have beliefs that are different to the ones we have. They might not be beings from outer space, but they certainly have a different culture and way of thinking to what we have.

We all come from different walks of life and see things differently. This is what I mean by "alternative." All "Christians" have a common agenda but have a different approach to it. Christians have a common spiritual leader -- Christ. That is what makes them Christian. It's just that they might have a different spiritual path/walk with God and Christ. This is what I meant by "alternatives."

There's a difference between "alternatives" inside of Christianity and "alternatives" outside of Christianity. The point is to know the difference between the two . . .

If you're into disputing groups like the LDS Church, Sun Myung Moon's Moonie sect, Christian Science, Church of Scientology, etc., I think it just depends on whether the idea is the promotion of an organisation or technical concept at the expense of Christ. Otherwise all is well.

This is a good series of questions. Let us explore the import of the answers.

The LDS (Mormons) state that: The Father was once a mortal man who progressed to become a God, an exalted man. God the Father has a tangible body of flesh and bones. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate Gods, and many other gods exist as well. Jesus has a Father, who has a Father, who has a Father and so on. Each of the Father-gods have heavenly wives, who give the Father-gods spiritual babies, and then organizes a new world for them to inhabit. The ultimate purpose of each spirit is to become part of the godhood (that is gods themselves), in order to create their own worlds with baby spirits. This is their attainment of "eternal life". There is general salvation, and individual salvation, which is attained through perfecting one's self through works. There is no justification by faith. There are three kingdoms or levels of heavenly existence. Mormons occupy the first, non-mormons the second, and carnals occupy the third.

The Unification Church (Moonies) state that: Divine Principle (Moon's book) takes precedence over Old and New Testament. Reject Moon's revelation and go to hell. The Bible refers to Moon. Unificationists reject the Trinity, as is classically understood. The old Trinity was to be God, Adam and Eve. The current Trinity is God, the perfected Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, but this is temporary. The new Trinity will be God, Moon, and Moon's wife. Jesus is not an eternal deity, Moon is to be the eternal deity equal with God the Father.

Christian Scientists state that: All things in the universe are God. God is the reality and everything else is an illusion of mortal mind. The Trinity is a triply devine principle "Life, Truth, Love". Jesus is not the divine Christ, he just embodied the Christ. Christ is not the savior but a way-shower, that sickness and death are illusions and should not believed. Since all is God, then man is not apart from God, and since God can not sin, then man does not sin. There is no salvation, because nothing really exists except God. Since there is no such thing as death, Jesus did not die, therefore did not shed blood for mankind which does not exist outside of God anyway.

In each of these professed "Christian" faiths, the doctrine they provide on their beliefs points out the same thing. Jesus isn't important to the salvation of man. Jesus is not God. The Bible is ecsoteric, lacking or corrupted, so another set a books of divine wisdom are the only truth to each individual belief.
 
WWJD?

Would he think we are works in progress, would he wait for us to understand further, would he see us where we are and discuss potential.

Or would he discard us, kick us out of the garden and into the compost pile?
 
wil said:
WWJD?

Would he think we are works in progress, would he wait for us to understand further, would he see us where we are and discuss potential.

Or would he discard us, kick us out of the garden and into the compost pile?
While he might not discard us.
He dang sure kicked us out of the garden.
He dang sure did not just wait for people to understand see the money changers in the temple. He had no problem calling someone out and letting them know they were wrong.
 
Dor said:
While he might not discard us.
He dang sure kicked us out of the garden.
He dang sure did not just wait for people to understand see the money changers in the temple. He had no problem calling someone out and letting them know they were wrong.
While he would DEFINITELY not discard us, our Lord and Saviour cares nothing about popular opinion.
Discussing potential?
 
wil said:
WWJD?

Would he think we are works in progress, would he wait for us to understand further, would he see us where we are and discuss potential.

Or would he discard us, kick us out of the garden and into the compost pile?
Meant to quote this one.
 
Kindest Regards, Dor!
Dor said:
He had no problem calling someone out and letting them know they were wrong.
I don't want to seem like I am picking on you, I'm not. :D

I do think there is a huge difference between Jesus, as G-d, judging; and any mere mortal human judging. Like I have tried in a number of ways to show, it is one thing to share what one understands as right or pointing out in a loving manner what one feels is wrong...and quite another to set ourselves up in judgement. G-d is the judge. Jesus as G-d can rightfully judge. It is not our place to judge each others spirit, that is not our job or anything we have great need to focus on. (Other than basic discernment, for basic protection reasons.) We are not asked to fellowship with those we disagree with, or to agree and participate. But it seems to me we are asked to forgive and tolerate, I think because each of us is on our own individual learning curve. I say this regarding those who genuinely seek G-d, in whatever manner they "see" Him. Those that deny Him, or turn from Him, are a bit different story, and I think it is wise to avoid such people when possible. But it can be difficult to discern a "good" person who is approaching G-d with a different set of tools. I take the tack here, for all it's worth, that a person who is willing to participate (for any length of time) on this forum must be trying to relate to G-d in some way. I can't fault a person for that.

OK, I'm done. Sorry 'bout that, this is not a scolding of any sort, it is just me venting. I hope I have not caused any ill will between us. :D
 
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