q - i saw a discussion about biblical hebrew terminology and couldn't resist...
At Genesis 1:1 the title "God" is translated from ’Elo·him´, which is plural in Hebrew.
i know that. did you think the commentators aren't aware of that? the verb is in the singular, which is the important bit. the only time you see "elohim" with a plural is when the people ask aaron to make "gods" for them (the golden calf) in exodus. then the verb is in the plural, indicating that this is not G!D but idolatry.
Trinitarians construe this to be an indication of the Trinity. They also explain Deuteronomy 6:4 to imply the unity of members of the Trinity when it says, "The LORD our God [from ’Elo·him´] is one LORD."
i know what they construe. they also take every mention of wood or trees in the Torah to be an indication of the cross. you might as well say every mention of cows is an indication of latent hinduism and it would be just as tenuous.
The plural form of the noun here in Hebrew is the plural of majesty or excellence. (See NAB, St. Joseph Edition, Bible Dictionary, p. 330; also, New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. V, p. 287.) It conveys no thought of plurality of persons within a godhead.
that's what *i'm* saying. and in any case, why would i need catholics to tell me this?
In similar fashion, at Judges 16:23 when reference is made to the false god Dagon, a form of the title ’elo·him´ is used; the accompanying verb is singular, showing that reference is to just the one god.
yes, but that is a direct statement by the philistines, so obviously they would use the singular, because it's them talking about their own singular god, so that proves nothing.
At Genesis 42:30, Joseph is spoken of as the "lord" (’adho·neh´, the plural of excellence) of Egypt.
that may well be a formal use of the "royal we" - after all, joseph is representing a monarch, pharaoh, acting as his plenipotentiary, with royal power; perhaps this is an indication of that? besides, we have already seen that "adoni" means "sir" when it is written out, as opposed to when it is read out as "ADoNaI" in place of the Tetragrammaton. more to the point, the verb "he spoke", referring to joseph, is in the singular - "DiBeR". if it had been plural, it would have been "DaBRU". in any case, i don't get the point you're making.
Chumash with Rashi - Bereishit - Parshah
The Greek language does not have a ‘plural of majesty or excellence.’ So, at Genesis 1:1 the translators of LXX used ho The·os´ (God, singular) as the equivalent of ’Elo·him´. At Mark 12:29, where a reply of Jesus is reproduced in which he quoted Deuteronomy 6:4, the Greek singular ho The·os´ is similarly used.
but what have greek translation problems got to do with me? or mark 12:29, for that matter? it's not my problem if the septuagint is wrong. i am interested in what is said in the hebrew original.
At Deuteronomy 6:4, the Hebrew text contains the Tetragrammaton twice, and so should more properly read: "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."
there's no "more properly" about it. this phrase can be read a number of ways. for example, kaplan's translation reads "HaShem Is our G!D, HaShem alone."
inhumility said:
The Jews, the Muslims, the Sikhs and the Zoroastrians understand G!D is one
as far as i am aware , the zoroastrians believe in two powers, one of good, "ormuz" and one of evil, "ahriman". this religion was known to us, being a persian religion originally. it also influenced the gnostic heresy of the "demiurge" as creator of the [therefore] evil world, so i don't think this is right.
E99 said:
Do you contest the original language and words used are the words of God, or do you see that the words are purely from a man's point of view?
i believe in
Torah me-sinai and
Torah min-ha-shamayim, Torah from G!D, revealed at sinai. i don't believe it was a creation of humans. my study and experience of the Text and the system derived from it has convinced me that it constitutes evidence of a superhuman intelligence. the fact of jewish survival against all the odds, jewish reality as lived every day and my own inner experience of spirituality has forced me to conclude that the Intelligence behind the Torah is none other than that of the Divine.
Are you quoting the ‘documentary theory, that there are several writers of Genesis “J” (Jahwist), “E” (Elohist), and “P” (Priest Codex) ? (Which can be contested.)
that is correct. i reject the documentary theory on various bases, not the least the fact that none of the supposed accounts from which the Torah was supposedly, G!D forbid, compiled, has been discovered - the reason for this being that they never existed outside the minds of the C19th so-called "higher critics".
Please quote some of the scriptures that use the J/Y and E names in Genesis and the J/E combination scriptures. If the E-name is always 100% used for reference to ‘stern justice‘, why is the E name used at Genesis 1:1, where it speaks specifically about the creative power of Jehovah God ? (Although the documentary theory puts this down to the P writer.)
it's not as simple as 'speaking specifically about creative power'; verse 1:1 uses "E", because, to quote rashi: "in the beginning it was G!D's Intention to Create it with the Divine Standard of Justice, but G!D Perceived that the world would not endure;" therefore this sentence can be more properly read "in the beginning of G!D's Creation of the heavens and the earth", because it refers to G!D's intention, not a completed action. later on, in 2:4, (considered by scholars, therefore, to be from another writer) it refers to Creation as already created, hence it says: "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, on the day that Y-E Made earth and heaven." as rashi says in reference to 2:4, "[Y] is G!D's Name. [E means] that G!D Is the Ruler and Judge over the entire world, and so is this defined everywhere according to its simple meaning: Y-E, Who is Ruler and Judge ". so rashi says in his commentary on 1:1, referring to the eventual state of affairs, "so G!D preceded [the E-name] with the Divine Standard of Mercy, [consequently] allying it with the Divine Standard of Justice, and that is the reason it is written:“on the day [Y-E] Made earth and heaven.”
a couple of other good examples: verse 8:21, where the Y-Name is used:
"And [Y] smelled the pleasant aroma, and the [Y] Said in [Y]'s heart, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done."
it should be obvious that this is an example of a merciful statement, referring to the end of the flood and 6:12-3, where G!D Decides to kick the whole sorry business off, where obviously the E-name of strict judgement is being used:
"Now the earth was corrupt before [E], and the earth became full of robbery. And [E] saw the earth, and behold it had become corrupted, for all flesh had corrupted its way on the earth."
noah is the only person on whom G!D has mercy, as we see in 6:22: "And Noah did all that [Y] had commanded him; thus he did" as well as 8:1: "And [E] remembered Noah and every living thing and all the cattle that was with him in the ark", where they have all been strictly judged - and found to be blameless in their generation. hope these examples are sufficient.
you may also find this page useful:
Questions and Concepts for Parsha Bereishit
as it gives some sense of the sequencing of the use of the different Names.
but the usage of false gods, in which Dagon is one, is used as Elohim at Exodus 12:12 (Alei.... Elohim of.) Elohim can be transliterated and recognised to mean false gods.
exodus 12:12 is "I will pass through the land of Egypt on this night, and I will smite every firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast, and upon all the [elohei] of Egypt will I wreak judgments - I, [Y]." "Elohim" does not appear in this verse, although the word meaning "gods" does, referring to the false gods of egypt - ie, it's in the possessive, referring to the egyptians, because it is the egyptians' opinion that these are gods. you'd do better to ask why it says "I - [Y]" at the end, just after G!D passes what is evidently a piece of stern judgement! this, fortunately, is explained elsewhere:
Parashat Kedoshim: The Basis for the Moral Society - Torah.org
where we can understand that every time you see something, either an action or a commandment, concluded with the phrase: "I Am [Y]", it refers to the phrase "you shall be holy, just like I, G!D, Am Holy".
The Phrase “Ani Yahweh Eloheihem”
where are you quoting this phrase from? are you sure you aren't mistransliterating "Ani [Y] Elohei
khem" (I Am Y
*your* G!D)?
The root word might be the same... El, but as a good dictionary will show you, “Allah” is a shortened form of the Arabic term meaning “the god.”
oh, i wasn't clear - you know how semitic root-structures, work, right? "al-LaH" does indeed mean "The G!D" (which is, of course not at all theologically problematic for me, because muslims are very clearly monotheists) but the root of it is the L-H bit, the first A-L bit being merely the definite article, as you have noticed. nonetheless, it is the same cognate two-letter root as the Lo-H root of "ELoHIM". blimey, it's hard to do this when everyone's transliterating differently.
But “Allah” corresponds, in Hebrew, to ´Elo·him´, the plural of majesty of the word ´eloh´ah (god). Not a name.
ahem - it's still a name, even if it denotes a concept. leastways, that's the way we see it. the word "God" in english is also a name, as well as a concept.
b'shalom
bananabrain
That'll teach the lil menance to obey and LOVE me... and wow... my whole family sure will respect me and see me as a big man for busting a childs legs up...
