Why do people try to change Christianity?

[Saltmeister]

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple." - Psalm 19:7

"For the word of the LORD is right and true; he is faithful in all he does." - Psalm 33:4

"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." - Psalm 119:60

"I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." - Psalm 138:2

Question: Is that a statement about the Bible or God's word and authority?

To me there's a difference.

Let me start by defining God's word as about what God authorises and ordains. God is the entity that ordains. The Word is the act as well as the expression of ordaining and authorising.

I would agree that the Bible was ordained by God, but I would say that the Bible is not the act of authorising and ordaining, but merely the expression of it.

So the Bible isn't exactly the "Word of God" in the sense that it is merely the expression of authorisation and ordainment, not the act of authorisation and ordainment.

The act of authorising and ordaining something could include two things:

1) You want or mean something
2) You express that you want or mean something

My thinking leads me to say that the Bible's purpose is the second component of the Word of God. It is not the whole Word of God but a part of it. The Bible is the expression of the Word, not the whole act, or "manifestation" of the Word.

In simple terms, the Bible is the expression, not the manifestation of God's word. That allows the Bible's contents to be true even though it isn't perfect because the expression doesn't have to be perfect. It's the manifestation that's perfect.

The question is, though, where's the manifestation? Where else? I take it to be in Jesus Christ!!!

Bible = expression of the Word of God
Christ = manifestation (the Son) of the Word of God
Bible + Christ = act of authorisation and ordainment (Word of God)

That's at least my theory. Hopefully it makes sense . . .

 

[RevKelly]

I've been learning a lot on this board.

But as far as the Catholic Priests go, they can forgo something all they want. It's only themselves that will keep them from God. Their loss, I guess. I personally don't believe that only virgins will make it to Heaven. I mean, since when has a virgin felt the love for another human being that isn't stagnant. Unrequited love is pretty harsh on the Psyche. Brings about depression and disappointment.

Just my opinion,

Kelly

 

[Quahom1]

I'm an ordained Reverend of the Universal Life Church. For some strange reason, that seems to make people think I know a lot. But I'm learning just like everyone else. Which is why I won't accept the Doctorate in Divinity from the ULC.

Peace,

Kelly

Pleased to meet you Reverend. I'm a bonified sinner, who happens to be a "Catholic" military man with an attitude, that I strive to keep in check. In this case though I'll make an exception. I would suggest you back up a bit, read more and talk less.

You might learn from the heathens here so forth.

wise is the man who listens to fools...he knows what not to say.

 

[Quahom1]

I've been learning a lot on this board.

But as far as the Catholic Priests go, they can forgo something all they want. It's only themselves that will keep them from God. Their loss, I guess. I personally don't believe that only virgins will make it to Heaven. I mean, since when has a virgin felt the love for another human being that isn't stagnant. Unrequited love is pretty harsh on the Psyche. Brings about depression and disappointment.

Just my opinion,

Kelly

My mother is not a virgin...but she is heaven bound.

 

[17th Angel]

You might learn from the heathens here so forth.

wise is the man who listens to fools...he knows what not to say.

lol.. There is always something to learn from everyone...
Also a wise man can see wisdom in every word..

I'm an ordained Reverend of the Universal Life Church. For some strange reason, that seems to make people think I know a lot. But I'm learning just like everyone else.

I know you are, just like everyone else.. I was just curious to see if you really used reverend as a title or just handle.

 

[Quahom1]

lol.. There is always something to learn from everyone...
Also a wise man can see wisdom in every word..




I know you are, just like everyone else.. I was just curious to see if you really used reverend as a title or just handle.

...and in every deed.

 

[mee]

Mark 9:
"47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where


‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’[a]"

False teaching?

the accurate word here is
Ge·hen´na not hell-fire.accurate understanding about what this word Ge-hen-na means leads to accurate understanding about the bible and what it teaches.
Symbolic of Complete Destruction.

 

[Quahom1]

Question: Is that a statement about the Bible or God's word and authority?

To me there's a difference.

Let me start by defining God's word as about what God authorises and ordains. God is the entity that ordains. The Word is the act as well as the expression of ordaining and authorising.

I would agree that the Bible was ordained by God, but I would say that the Bible is not the act of authorising and ordaining, but merely the expression of it.

So the Bible isn't exactly the "Word of God" in the sense that it is merely the expression of authorisation and ordainment, not the act of authorisation and ordainment.

The act of authorising and ordaining something could include two things:

1) You want or mean something
2) You express that you want or mean something

My thinking leads me to say that the Bible's purpose is the second component of the Word of God. It is not the whole Word of God but a part of it. The Bible is the expression of the Word, not the whole act, or "manifestation" of the Word.

In simple terms, the Bible is the expression, not the manifestation of God's word. That allows the Bible's contents to be true even though it isn't perfect because the expression doesn't have to be perfect. It's the manifestation that's perfect.

The question is, though, where's the manifestation? Where else? I take it to be in Jesus Christ!!!

Bible = expression of the Word of God
Christ = manifestation (the Son) of the Word of God
Bible + Christ = act of authorisation and ordainment (Word of God)

That's at least my theory. Hopefully it makes sense . . .

So, the Bible (word of God) is not expressed until man opens the pages...that about right?

Kind of like keeping God in a box...don't open the lid, and God don't get out...

 

[Quahom1]

the accurate word here is
Ge·hen´na not hell-fire.accurate understanding about what this word Ge-hen-na means leads to accurate understanding about the bible and what it teaches.
Symbolic of Complete Destruction.

Ge hen' na is a trash pit that burns constantly Mee. That is a fact. It is a disgusting place. Nothing good comes from it.

 

[mee]

Ge hen' na is a trash pit that burns constantly Mee. That is a fact. It is a disgusting place. Nothing good comes from it.

yes thats right ,and only the dead were thrown into there, and when Jesus spoke about Gehenna his listeners knew just what he was referirng too. when the dead bodies of criminals were thrown in there because they were not worthy of a burial , they were destroyed for good , but if they landed on the ledge the worms would eat them and they would rot away . teaching wrong things about the symbol of total destruction is not a good thing to do . as it makes the God of love out to be bad . false teachings down through time turn people away from the God of love .

 

[RevKelly]

Pleased to meet you all as well. Me personally, I've tried very hard to be good to people my whole life. But I've taken a lot of crap and found that it's time to say 'enough.'

I'm very offended by these people that circle the military funerals like vultures claiming that they are there by God's will. I'm a Navy Vet, so is my Brother, so is my Father. I had three Uncles who were in the military, two of which fought in the Korean Conflict, and a Great Uncle who was a SeaBee in the Pacific during WWII. So my family has put their life on the line for this country. Numerous times.

I'm also very offended by the Mob and the Gangs in the Chicagoland area that are getting away with murder.

So part of my intention on this board is to see if I can find a solution to these problems.

Now my intention wasn't to provoke anyone into anger, and if I did so, I apologize.

But I thought this board was for an exchange of opinions and that was what I was doing. You are welcome to disagree with me and I encourage you to do so. I can learn from anyone. And I understand that I can be quite wrong as well.

And that is also what I'm here for.

But as far as me talking less, well, what would be the point in being here, then?

Peace,

Kelly

 

[Cage]

It happens because we're afraid of what people will do. Will Christians start leaving the faith if they start believing it's not 100% perfect? Will non-Christians start laughing and making fun of us and saying, "Hey I told you so!!!!!" ?

This behaviour is driven by fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of not knowing whether to trust what the Bible says when it isn't 100% perfect!!!!

The way I see it, the Bible is just a means to an end. Its purpose was to remind us what the early Christians believed. Perfection isn't necessary. The Texts only need to say what they need to say to convey the experiences of the early Christians to us -- nothing more. The most important thing in Christianity and the Bible is Christ. If there is anything that needs to be defended and promoted in Christianity it's Christ, not the Bible itself. Nowhere does it say in the Bible, "I am the Bible. Defend me!!! My words are true!!! My words are perfect!!! I am free from error. I have not been corrupted. Beware of the false teachers that tell you I have been corrupted. Have nothing to do with them. Those who profane me will be cast into the deepest, most scorching of fires!!!!"

Sounds a bit like the Book of Origin and the Ori in StarGate SG-1.

It sounds to me that Christianity isn't about defending the Bible. Methinks Christianity can, in theory, exist without the Bible. Christianity is about Jesus Christ. The concept of Jesus Christ is independent of any written text. The concept of Jesus Christ existed before any written text in the New Testament. What we have in the Bible is a reminder of what Jesus Christ meant to people from earlier times. The Bible is here to remind; it is not a magic formula for enlightenment.

The Bible itself records Jesus as saying, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me." The words say it all!!!

No, the Bible is not the Book of Origin, and Jesus Christ is not one of the Ori. This is not StarGate SG-1 here!!!

I don't require the Bible to be 100% perfect because I simply don't believe Christianity is emphasising the perfection of a Written Text. I see Christianity's purpose as conveying the message and concept of Jesus Christ. The Texts are nothing but beacons leading us to that concept.

Consider Colossians 2:20-22.



When we say that people have to believe in the 100% perfection of the Bible to be Christian, aren't we making rules? The 100% perfection of the Bible is something Christians have been influenced to believe -- by Enlightenment and Modernity -- the idea of something perfect as conveying a message from God. But isn't this like what Paul means by "the basic principles of this world," that this is what the modern world would want to believe, due to the implications of modernity, which believes in magic formulas?

The modern world is driven by industries that design, engineer and deploy products. Mathematics and science is used to achieve the aesthetic elegance, quality and utilitarian efficiency of commercial products today. The modern world could well be shaped to believe that the Bible is like a product designed, engineered and deployed, much like modern industries work today, to show off the wisdom and intelligence of God!!! My point? People think of the Bible as a product deployed to excite and provoke us, much like something manufactured in modern industry. The Bible is just like everything else -- something we buy and sell. Strangely enough, though, it isn't non-Christians, but Christians that reinforce this way of thinking.

So what's the real purpose of the Bible? To explain Jesus Christ to future generations. The Bible becomes useless once this goal has been realised. Once you have discovered Jesus Christ you can throw your Bible in the trash bin because you have found God. (Nah just joking. Human memory can be fickle.) But honestly, do we really think we'll need the Bible in the New Heaven and New Earth which God is preparing for us?

The Bible, just like everything else, perishes with use (as Paul says in Colossians 2:20-22).

So let nobody deceive you about the purpose of the Bible. It's purpose was simply to remind us of the person of Jesus Christ. It doesn't need to be 100% perfect.

If we do require the Bible to be 100% perfect, we may well have chosen to be Christian for the wrong reasons!!! So what happens if someone convinces us otherwise? Does our faith depend on the perfection/imperfection of a Written Text or the reasonableness/unreasonableness of the concept of Jesus Christ? Which one do you pursue?

Great post, and I agree... This is the way I think, also. I dis agree with taking the entire bible as absolute truth. I think we are to judge by spirit, and seperate that which is good, from that which doesn't set with God's Love. The Bible tells us to do this when judging prophets, and when judging the spirit of truth from the spirits of error.

I Love the Bible, but I Love God and Jesus much, much more...

Much Love,

 

[Cage]

17th Angel,

Here's a little something that might make things make more sense about the Bible.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

That would include any verse in the Bible. There are over 300 inconsistencies in the Bible. I have wondered if they are there intentionally just to see if we can get 1 Thessalonians 5:21 right. It's shown me that Chastity is wrong. Chastity turns you away from Love; therefore, it turns you away from God. Which makes the Catholic Priests dead in the water. That one has always bothered me. Gee, let's take the people that believe in God most and turn them into non-breeders. Yeah, right, that makes sense. This coming from the country that spawned the Mob.

You'll notice that the only Book in the Bible that says not to change a word of it is Revelation.

Peace,

Kelly
P.S. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 if applied to the actions of a human is a non-mathamatical theorem to determine right and wrong actions. Here's an example:

Love is Good True or False
Hate is Good True or False
Joy and Happiness are Good True or False
Misery and Despair are Good True or False
Mercy and Compassion are Good True or False
Cruelty and Malice are Good True or False
Patience is Good True or False
Outrage is Good True or False
Courage is Good True or False
Terror is Good True or False

I believe this is how Jesus saw Truth from False. Apply the same to the Bible and you have the Answer.

I think you might be on to something, Rev Kelly. We are to judge by spirit, seperating the false from the true. Much of the Bible was written in the Spirit of Gods truth, which I believe is Love. It's a matter of sifting through, and finding what resinates within one's self, imo.

Of course no one has all the answers, but I think the first step is embracing the Love of God, and this is where I am at this moment. God has allowed me to experience his Love, and I won't resist it...

You have just as much to offer as anyone else here, and I truly think you have a view worth expressing.


Much Love,

 

[Cage]

I just lol'd....


Pick and choose? Hmm god wants me to do this... Meh thats a bit much... anything easier in this book... oh there I'll do that... that is brilliant... Do you consider yourself a christian? Why is it viewed as being without error? Because apparently it's the word of your god? Your god speaks sometimes in error does he?

I think man speaks in error, and if you haven't noticed, the Bible was written, by man. Sure, it's inspired, but man is an evil breed, and our hearts aren't always in the right place. It only makes sense to take this into account when studying the Bible, imo.

I believe in free will, and God never interferes with a persons choice, imo. Why then would God interfere with the Bible, even if man got some of it wrong? Choice is our freedom, and that freedom was given in the beginning with Adam and Eve,

I'm a fan of Jesus, but since my views don't set well with the flock, I refrain from calling my self Christian. But, with your logic, one would have to agree with everything our governments do, and say to be called a citizen, or in my case, an American.

I'm just saying...


Much Love

 

[Dor]

Please do not refer the Westboro Baptist Church as Baptists. They do not represent anything even remotely Baptist. They are not affiliated with any Baptist organization or denomination. They are a cult, plain and simple. They are self-righteous bigots with a thousand planks in their eyes. They are unforgiving and callous. They are NOT confused. They know damn well what they are doing. They have filled themselves with hate. They have no mercy and are just a bad as the extremist Islamic terroists that threaten our soldiers overseas. Really, it is the ravings of one Fred Phelps. His church consists primarily of members of his own family.

Quite simply, they are not Christians in any biblical sense of the word.

I agree whith you 100% Dondi.

 

[shadowman]

greetings rev kelly, nice to see you on these boards.

I like your style.

I agree that chastity is not necessarily right, and that in the right light, sex is definitely not wrong. Any thing that prevents love between humans is wrong. (ukess maybe it religious beleifs, hmmmm)

But what about between gay people?

 

[wil]

Namaste all, what an active thread, yippee, gotta love discussion.

Q, When I said everyone was trying to find Christianity, I was referring to those that Dor referenced in the title 'Why do people want to change Christianity'.

Yes every denomination has members of its sect who have that steadfastness...hmmm so does every religion...those are the ones that have found the solace, the peace in their path. While I believe it can be found in all paths (religions, sects and denominations) some resonate more for some than others...hence the search...hence why all of us are where we are...some of us have found the way home...some of us are biding are time and keeping our mind open...and some of us are still searching...


I've danced down all those roads and must say I thouroughly enjoy the dance and those I've danced with....

 

[Marietta]

Hello Dor,

Yes we have some books and letters that were given to us by the Council of Nicea. There are thousands of manuscripts held with in the Vatican volts that the public has no access to. A group of men at the Council of Nicea decided which of these text they would allow in their new religion and then they altered the text to fit the dogma they chose to use in their new found faith.
Humans have all they need because the true way to follow Christ is found within the heart. We were never created as puppets that were supposed to merely do what we are told and never question things. It is through questing and experiencing that we come to know things. You can tell a child not to touch the fire because it is hot. However until the child experiences what hot means he will still desire to touch the fire. Jesus said the bottom line is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, or do undo others as you would have them do unto you, this is the extent of the Law.
Love and Light, Marietta

 

[Cage]

I jumped in w/o addressing the OP, sorry...

Many people feel that Chistianity has been chnged from its original form, and are simply trying to bring it back to its true nature.

It's been going on for many many years. Even Paul talked about how it was being "perverted" when he wrote his letter to the Church of Galatia.

Galatians 1:3-10

3. Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4. Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5. To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.


Much Love,

 

[RevKelly]

Please do not refer the Westboro Baptist Church as Baptists...
They are a cult, plain and simple...
Quite simply, they are not Christians in any biblical sense of the word.

They use Gestapo Harrassment Tactics and Mafia Blacklisting Techniques to further their ends. They are dangerous and too many people are falling into their Hatemongering. They are Vultures circling these military funerals.