moseslmpg
Well-Known Member
Christianity also includes the OT, right? I think he may be focusing on that as well, seeing as how some pretty bloody stuff goes on there.
Christianity used as a tool of oppression?
- Thread starter zaim187
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If you don't have a sword sell your cloak and buy one.
Blazn, I pointed you to the KKK website which has page after page identifying itself as Christian and siting reasons why...I'm not in agreeance with any of it...I'm just pointing out it is used.
Abubakar
Abubakar
Assalam aleykum Cage
I think Zaim was posting this more as a conscienceness raising mission rather than to be directly offensive.
I am not sure but suspect he may be like myself, a Muslim.
As such we are constantly being told that Islam is not a Relgion of Peace, yet I see that there are two (or more) sides to the story and I too would like people to think about this.
I would like to say that I know of many Christians that are peaceful, good and kind people, just as most Muslims are but we both have people who claim to follow our Religions who are doing simply terrible things.
Just as I would like people not to judge me on the actions of those who commit atrocities in the name of my Religion , so to do I imagine that you would also not wish to be judged on the slaughter of women and children in Faluja by an Army commanded by a man who claims to be a practicing Christian.
I think it is healthly for Zaim to raise this topic and trust you will understand why he may be doing it.
Peace
China Cat Sunflower
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Iran, Indonesia, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, ...what do these countries have in common besides a majority Muslim population? How about harsh, authoritarian, corrupt, despotic governments? What is the one vehicle of protest and dissent the people in these countries have which the government is ultimately unable to quash? Islam. So when angry, disposessed people rise up in the name of Islam to challenge the status quo, is it Islam that foments the discontent, or is Islam merely the vehicle in which people invest their individual action and hope for change? And when the United States is seen to be abbetting the tyranny of despotic governments to further it's predatory capitalistic interests at the expense of the common man, is it at all surprising that Islam should become the vehicle of resistance to that as well? And lastly, is it surprising that power players in the person of clerics and tribal strong men would harness the discontent of the masses through a manipulation of the mechanism of religion, and use that for their own personal gain?
Chris
Chris
BlaznFattyz
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Cage
Spirit Guided
He did say that, but Matthew records Jesus saying this soon after...
It's hard for me to believe Jesus would have us take up arms and slay our enemies...especially after this statement. The two quotes seem a bit contradictory to me, and the first seems to go against his very nature/spirit/character, imo.
But, you are right...
Love,
M
mee
Guest
christianity is a peaceful thing but false teachers are not.
17th Angel
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Everybody's religion is peacful and it is the "others" that are not....
Like in christianity anyone who differs from you isn't a TRUE christian... You're the true one... They have just got the wrong end of the stick... Shame and they were so close. A little like the rush to be right thread... Everyone thinks they know it... No, you do think you know it. Don't give me that "I am still seeking, and if you can show me something that states I am wrong I'd happily change my ways." But you won't you're all hell bent stuck on -your- "true" christian ways
Doesn't matter what the mormon, the catholic, the JW, the baptist or whoever shows you from their bible and their point of view, it is clearly not the "right" way. Makes me ponder how a book that is supposed to be of such authority can spawn so many types of followers that disagree to the grave... Anyway, were talking aboot violence? Same case.... This christian/islam/jewish/muslim/raving lunatic party group starts a riot.. "oh no, that wasn't us True *insert your religious preference here* that was the misguided ones..
Religions are just a sad circle they go around and around (where will they stop? Noooobody knows!?)
Like in christianity anyone who differs from you isn't a TRUE christian... You're the true one... They have just got the wrong end of the stick... Shame and they were so close. A little like the rush to be right thread... Everyone thinks they know it... No, you do think you know it. Don't give me that "I am still seeking, and if you can show me something that states I am wrong I'd happily change my ways." But you won't you're all hell bent stuck on -your- "true" christian ways
Doesn't matter what the mormon, the catholic, the JW, the baptist or whoever shows you from their bible and their point of view, it is clearly not the "right" way. Makes me ponder how a book that is supposed to be of such authority can spawn so many types of followers that disagree to the grave... Anyway, were talking aboot violence? Same case.... This christian/islam/jewish/muslim/raving lunatic party group starts a riot.. "oh no, that wasn't us True *insert your religious preference here* that was the misguided ones..Religions are just a sad circle they go around and around (where will they stop? Noooobody knows!?)
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Be careful, 17th- for you are essentializing Christians just as you are criticizing the tendency of Christians to essentialize others. There are many Christians (and quite a few on this forum), that would say that several religions are peaceful, so long as they are not perverted by human greed for power and wealth, or tainted by human fears of others. Some of us more liberal folks also believe in radical grace, and that Christ can work in people who are of completely different religions from Christianity. Indeed, I have faith that as Christ is eternal, He worked in many before His step into our time a couple thousand years ago. Suffice it to say that beliefs about other religions are not uniform in Christianity, and not all of us feel how you are describing.
This is even more the case when you consider the different denominations in Christianity. While there are some who become attached to their particular church and see it as the only "true" way, there are many others that see people from all denominations (and for some of us, all religions) as being a part of the Body of Christ, offering many ways to Him, in alignment with the diverse needs of His people. Some of us are born with mystical bents, some are born with a tendency to seek after study of the scriptures using archaeology and linguistics, some need a church that allows them to dance and kneel and cry out in tongues, some need a church that embraces the mysteries of the old rituals. People are different and so (thank God!) we have many options in how to worship God and think about Him in our lives. It is human nature to be fearful of other ways of doing things, and it is part of the Western heritage, it seems, to have problems with dualistic thinking (if my way is right for me, yours must be wrong for you). But I really believe, and have seen in many, that Christ working in and through us conquers these tendencies. It may take some people a while to get there. In the meantime, the persecution of some of us (me included on occasion) in our faith allows us to grow in love towards others and humility. I believe that although it is very difficult at times, and there should not be division in the Body of Christ, we should not simply throw the baby out with the bath water- that is, we should not judge Christ and Christianity based on the sometimes lousy things that humans do with it.
There has never been a religion (to my knowledge) that has not been used in perverted ways by humans to gain what they selfishly want (be it security, power, wealth, etc.). But there are many religions that have beautiful founders, wise scriptures, and point those that seek to follow them (rather than use them) to increasing love and peacefulness.
I believe you cannot judge a set of spiritual principles by the worst actions of those who claim to follow them. You have to look at the principles themselves to see if they are right. In fact, one shouldn't even judge Christianity by what the best Christians accomplish in life. Christianity is a religion that promises that the greatest transformation- unto perfection- will be accomplished in those that follow the will of God and Christ's example in this life, but will be completed after death. That is what Christian faith is- to believe in this although we know how much we struggle each day with not being perfect. We trust that eventually Christ will bring us there- as perfectly loving, joyful, peaceful, faithful beings.
Now, in the meantime, a lot of folks get wrapped up in religion as their identity, which is in part organized and maintained by human beings (no matter how focused it is on God or selflessness or what have you), and so ground their identity (often without thinking about this) in a human-made category of Baptist or Quaker or Buddhist or Muslim. But really, I think that after death there is no religion. There is only people who are in Christ and people who are not, and each individual's life of sins and goodness. There is no questionnaire with the Census categories to fill out at the gates between this world and the next. There is only the nakedness of who you really are, completely apart from human-made categories of any kind, before God. And that, in itself, is your judgment. For once, we will know ourselves as we truly are, and how we stand in relationship to God, unmediated by society and our cultural baggage (including religious boundaries). And we will either be people who had allowed Christ to work in us, or people who did not.
And I will reiterate, as I'm rather liberal... I do not think someone need identify themself as a "Christian" in society to have allowed Christ into their hearts to begin His transformative work. The eternal Christ has always been and always will be, every where and at every time. We are doubly priviledged if we have received the scriptures and are born in a time and place in which He is prevalent and we are free enough to openly follow Him.
This is even more the case when you consider the different denominations in Christianity. While there are some who become attached to their particular church and see it as the only "true" way, there are many others that see people from all denominations (and for some of us, all religions) as being a part of the Body of Christ, offering many ways to Him, in alignment with the diverse needs of His people. Some of us are born with mystical bents, some are born with a tendency to seek after study of the scriptures using archaeology and linguistics, some need a church that allows them to dance and kneel and cry out in tongues, some need a church that embraces the mysteries of the old rituals. People are different and so (thank God!) we have many options in how to worship God and think about Him in our lives. It is human nature to be fearful of other ways of doing things, and it is part of the Western heritage, it seems, to have problems with dualistic thinking (if my way is right for me, yours must be wrong for you). But I really believe, and have seen in many, that Christ working in and through us conquers these tendencies. It may take some people a while to get there. In the meantime, the persecution of some of us (me included on occasion) in our faith allows us to grow in love towards others and humility. I believe that although it is very difficult at times, and there should not be division in the Body of Christ, we should not simply throw the baby out with the bath water- that is, we should not judge Christ and Christianity based on the sometimes lousy things that humans do with it.
There has never been a religion (to my knowledge) that has not been used in perverted ways by humans to gain what they selfishly want (be it security, power, wealth, etc.). But there are many religions that have beautiful founders, wise scriptures, and point those that seek to follow them (rather than use them) to increasing love and peacefulness.
I believe you cannot judge a set of spiritual principles by the worst actions of those who claim to follow them. You have to look at the principles themselves to see if they are right. In fact, one shouldn't even judge Christianity by what the best Christians accomplish in life. Christianity is a religion that promises that the greatest transformation- unto perfection- will be accomplished in those that follow the will of God and Christ's example in this life, but will be completed after death. That is what Christian faith is- to believe in this although we know how much we struggle each day with not being perfect. We trust that eventually Christ will bring us there- as perfectly loving, joyful, peaceful, faithful beings.
Now, in the meantime, a lot of folks get wrapped up in religion as their identity, which is in part organized and maintained by human beings (no matter how focused it is on God or selflessness or what have you), and so ground their identity (often without thinking about this) in a human-made category of Baptist or Quaker or Buddhist or Muslim. But really, I think that after death there is no religion. There is only people who are in Christ and people who are not, and each individual's life of sins and goodness. There is no questionnaire with the Census categories to fill out at the gates between this world and the next. There is only the nakedness of who you really are, completely apart from human-made categories of any kind, before God. And that, in itself, is your judgment. For once, we will know ourselves as we truly are, and how we stand in relationship to God, unmediated by society and our cultural baggage (including religious boundaries). And we will either be people who had allowed Christ to work in us, or people who did not.
And I will reiterate, as I'm rather liberal... I do not think someone need identify themself as a "Christian" in society to have allowed Christ into their hearts to begin His transformative work. The eternal Christ has always been and always will be, every where and at every time. We are doubly priviledged if we have received the scriptures and are born in a time and place in which He is prevalent and we are free enough to openly follow Him.
Hey Path, I'm curious. You are a liberal and believe that members of different demoninations and religions are/can be part of the body of Christ. What is your view of those Christians who do not believe this? Do you believe that they are lesser or misguided?
17th Angel
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1. It happens... I am saying what I see from day to day experience... I am not the one condeming people to hell..
2. And there are again many more that do go by how I said.
3. You think only in west this is a problem? I would agree it can be seen as an issue, in my way of thinking indeed anything that isn't religious has many ways to get the right answer, but say in christian religions "I am the way and the saviour" - jesus or whatever he said... Then take a religion where jesus isn't even involved one of those religions has to be telling porky pies.. I can't understand how both can be right.
4. Majority of humans, I am afraid only remember and comment on the bad things, rarely the good.
5. There pretty much has never been anything that hasn't been corrupted.
6. see 4 ;/
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Cage said:
I think that in the context of wil's passage, Jesus is allowing of for the purchase of a sword for defense purposes. It is not wrong to defend yourself, which is what Peter was doing.
But Jesus has a much more powerful sword.......
BlaznFattyz
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there is a foundation to christianity and that is salvation thru christ and that we are to love god and love each other, and this not debatable. the other denominations are due to either embellishments or social, economic, or cultural gifts thru which the church desires to glorify god, but these things cannot detract from the foundation that is the salvation thru christ. so all christianity even though there are different denominations, it is one body of christ built upon that same rock and foundation. when man deviates from christ, the love of god, and the love of his fellow man, then we are deviating from christianity and the will of god.
A question Christians are often faced with is: 'Is it ever ok to use physical force?' Well, I guess a Christian policeman would give you a blunt answer. And as an Aussie, I'm kinda glad the 'Yanks' came down under to help us bloody Hirohito's nose. (Don't get me started on the A bombs!).
It is not force that is the question, but the legitimacy of force in certain situations. Using force to convert someone, of course, is a big no no. Using force to protect someone, is quite ok in my Book.
It is not force that is the question, but the legitimacy of force in certain situations. Using force to convert someone, of course, is a big no no. Using force to protect someone, is quite ok in my Book.
I'm gonna tell you what I taught my sons (growing up in Detroit)
1. Never start a fight.
2. Fight fair, even if your opponent isn't.
3. Walk away if you can.
4. If you can't then finish the fight.
5. Never, ever turn your back on your brother, lest he be overcome...
6. Carry your brother home.
7. Let it go (the anger)
Works for countries too.
LOL, you would think. But then those "brothers" who would cover one's back, don't. Fighting fair gets one killed. Walking away gets one ridiculed by the rest of the world. Finishing the fight would make one animals. We do carry home our own. Letting go the anger is a slow process, especially when allies are the target of the anger.
So, true. I it is easier to forgive an enemy, than it is an ally who turns coat...
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
That's some good, sound advice, Q. Kinda makes me wish I'da heard something like that, all those years ago.
That's some good, sound advice, Q. Kinda makes me wish I'da heard something like that, all those years ago.
You would enjoy meeting my two sons.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
My view of those Christians who don't believe as I do is that I can't know their heart and mind and it is not for me to judge them. Basically, I refrain from thinking at all about how their beliefs stack up, so to speak, against my own. My own beliefs are a work in progress (and I suspect will be until I die and God finishes His work in me), so I don't claim to have THE answer, just the one that resonates with my walk with God and my reading of the scriptures thus far. I share what I believe, but I don't seek to change others' beliefs, nor would I say that it makes them lesser or misguided.
Perhaps what is good and helpful for one person to believe in this matter (i.e., what causes them to be more loving, to be more Christ-like, to be more dedicated to sharing Christ with others) is not what is right for another. I know that for me, to believe in this way helps me to be more kind, patient, and loving toward other people, and to share Christ with people that do not respond well to outright proselytizing (which is true in most of the circles I run in). For other people, the opposite view may work better to effect the same response in their lives and their communities.
Basically, in terms of what is "right," especially in the realm of doctrine, I more or less focus on my own relationship to God. I find it interesting and often enlightening to have dialogue with others about their beliefs, but I do not attempt to discern what is right for them. Instead, I try to discern if their views are right for me. And then I leave it at that. This is partially why I generally include the disclaimers "according to my experience," "in my opinion," "I believe," and also acknowledge that many of my beliefs are considered liberal by Christians today. It helps give people a heads-up of where I'm coming from and (hopefully) make it clear that I don't think everyone should think just as I do.