another yoga and christianity commentary
- Thread starter BlaznFattyz
- Start date
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Don't forget that there are many types of yoga. Hatha and laya yoga are probably what most people mean when they use the term, especially in the context that seems to be under discussion (or "fire") here. This is the yoga of physical exercises (`asanas,' or postures), and concerns itself largely with physical health.
Bhakti yoga is the yoga of devotion, as exemplified by Vaishnavas ("Hare Krishnas," followers of ISKCON). One might also say that large numbers of Christians essentially follow a bhakti approach, especially those who are rather zealous about their faith. This is simply my observation ... a parallel I have noticed. It applies to Islam, and other traditions as well, to a lesser extent.
To illustrate my point, here's a small portion of the Wikipedia article under `bhakti,' the section on Theory of divine grace:
But other yogas also exist. Patanjali's Raja Yoga, or `kingly yoga,' is largely that of *mental disciplines*. This is not about playing twister or seeing who can attain the full lotus position. It is about the training of the mind ... something which the modern (public) schools seem to almost completely ignore, as if things will simply take care of themselves, magically somehow. Even the popular music screams "we don't need no education, we don't need no THOUGHT CONTROL."
But this is precisely what Raja Yoga sets out to provide: *thought control*. The difference might be that, even as Krishna asks of Arjuna in the bhakti approach, the `taming of the mind' is to be done voluntarily, and not imposed upon us from some kind of external authority.
Another traditional form of yoga is Karma Yoga, or the 'yoga of action.' At first glance, this might seem counter-intuitive. After all, isn't the idea in Eastern religions to *rid* oneself of karma??? Yes, that is true, but it is also understood that *every action* - and in fact, every thought and every feeling - automatically generates a certain degree of positive or negative karma. Prayer for example, of any type to any deity, would be considered as generating an overwhelmingly positive karma.
So the karma yogin simply goes about his or her daily business, seeking to generate as much positive karma (or merit) as possible, yet not for the sake of self alone. The altruistic nature of this yoga discipline is that one "simply does what is right for the sake of doing right, seeking no reward." Again, this sounds remarkably like teachings I have learned from within Christianity, perhaps even dovetailing with the Golden Rule.
A newer form of yoga than these ancient traditions is sometimes called Agni Yoga, which literally means `yoga of fire,' but which is often termed `the Teaching of Living Ethics' by its followers. One can read about it on Wikipedia, and evaluate it for oneself. This is a modern approach, and certainly does not focus on the practices of Hatha Yoga, or even the excercises of Raja Yoga. Nor is it recommended for everyone willy-nilly.
Perhaps of greatest interest to me along the lines of the discussion you have invited, Blazn, is something a family member related to me the other day. At her church, she pointed out, Yoga is being offered as a class, open to anyone regardless of belief and certainly regardless of interest in Eastern traditions. The focus is on improving one's health and well-being, on every level: physical, emotional, mental and spiritual.
This person is nearly 70 years old, and she was keen to point out that the Yoga is done sitting in a *chair*, so it is certainly not physically rigorous, though I do believe she said there is some stretching (postures, `asanas') involved. There is much more attention placed on relaxing, however, and also on learning to focus the mind and meditate.
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I cannot fathom how any of this would be the least bit inharmonious to a sincere Christian ... certainly not to anyone seeking inner peace and spiritual upliftment. Perhaps these are not necessarily mutually inclusive?
Ah well, the class is optional - no one is *required* to attend. No one can force us to seek greater health on varoius levels, or to better ourselves. Like a healthy diet, this too is optional.
~Zag
Bhakti yoga is the yoga of devotion, as exemplified by Vaishnavas ("Hare Krishnas," followers of ISKCON). One might also say that large numbers of Christians essentially follow a bhakti approach, especially those who are rather zealous about their faith. This is simply my observation ... a parallel I have noticed. It applies to Islam, and other traditions as well, to a lesser extent.
To illustrate my point, here's a small portion of the Wikipedia article under `bhakti,' the section on Theory of divine grace:
A person's fate is reflected mainly in the tendencies that he has created for himself through committed actions. He has total free will to surrender to God or not. But if he surrenders to Him heart and soul, He promises that He will take care of his pure devotee. This is famously illustrated in one of Krishna's final statements to Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita:
"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me.
I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear". (Bhagavad Gita 18.66)
Now this seems quite familiar, if I recall my Sunday School lessons correctly! Even something about one of the Commandments?I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear". (Bhagavad Gita 18.66)
But other yogas also exist. Patanjali's Raja Yoga, or `kingly yoga,' is largely that of *mental disciplines*. This is not about playing twister or seeing who can attain the full lotus position. It is about the training of the mind ... something which the modern (public) schools seem to almost completely ignore, as if things will simply take care of themselves, magically somehow. Even the popular music screams "we don't need no education, we don't need no THOUGHT CONTROL."
But this is precisely what Raja Yoga sets out to provide: *thought control*. The difference might be that, even as Krishna asks of Arjuna in the bhakti approach, the `taming of the mind' is to be done voluntarily, and not imposed upon us from some kind of external authority.
Another traditional form of yoga is Karma Yoga, or the 'yoga of action.' At first glance, this might seem counter-intuitive. After all, isn't the idea in Eastern religions to *rid* oneself of karma??? Yes, that is true, but it is also understood that *every action* - and in fact, every thought and every feeling - automatically generates a certain degree of positive or negative karma. Prayer for example, of any type to any deity, would be considered as generating an overwhelmingly positive karma.
So the karma yogin simply goes about his or her daily business, seeking to generate as much positive karma (or merit) as possible, yet not for the sake of self alone. The altruistic nature of this yoga discipline is that one "simply does what is right for the sake of doing right, seeking no reward." Again, this sounds remarkably like teachings I have learned from within Christianity, perhaps even dovetailing with the Golden Rule.
A newer form of yoga than these ancient traditions is sometimes called Agni Yoga, which literally means `yoga of fire,' but which is often termed `the Teaching of Living Ethics' by its followers. One can read about it on Wikipedia, and evaluate it for oneself. This is a modern approach, and certainly does not focus on the practices of Hatha Yoga, or even the excercises of Raja Yoga. Nor is it recommended for everyone willy-nilly.
Perhaps of greatest interest to me along the lines of the discussion you have invited, Blazn, is something a family member related to me the other day. At her church, she pointed out, Yoga is being offered as a class, open to anyone regardless of belief and certainly regardless of interest in Eastern traditions. The focus is on improving one's health and well-being, on every level: physical, emotional, mental and spiritual.
This person is nearly 70 years old, and she was keen to point out that the Yoga is done sitting in a *chair*, so it is certainly not physically rigorous, though I do believe she said there is some stretching (postures, `asanas') involved. There is much more attention placed on relaxing, however, and also on learning to focus the mind and meditate.
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I cannot fathom how any of this would be the least bit inharmonious to a sincere Christian ... certainly not to anyone seeking inner peace and spiritual upliftment. Perhaps these are not necessarily mutually inclusive?
Ah well, the class is optional - no one is *required* to attend. No one can force us to seek greater health on varoius levels, or to better ourselves. Like a healthy diet, this too is optional.
~Zag
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Apologies for the spam. My posts are eaten any time there is anything substantial in them. Let's see ... (post attempted after thread first started, sorry for the delay, it has been eaten SEVERAL times)
Don't forget that there are many types of yoga. Hatha and laya yoga are probably what most people mean when they use the term, especially in the context that seems to be under discussion (or "fire") here. This is the yoga of physical exercises (`asanas,' or postures), and concerns itself largely with physical health.
Bhakti yoga is the yoga of devotion, as exemplified by Vaishnavas ("Hare Krishnas," followers of ISKCON). One might also say that large numbers of Christians essentially follow a bhakti approach, especially those who are rather zealous about their faith. This is simply my observation ... a parallel I have noticed. It applies to Islam, and other traditions as well, to a lesser extent.
To illustrate my point, here's a small portion of the Wikipedia article under `bhakti,' the section on Theory of divine grace:
But other yogas also exist. Patanjali's Raja Yoga, or `kingly yoga,' is largely that of *mental disciplines*. This is not about playing twister or seeing who can attain the full lotus position.It is about the training of the mind ... something which the modern (public) schools seem to almost completely ignore, as if things will simply take care of themselves, magically somehow. Even the popular music screams "we don't need no education, we don't need no THOUGHT CONTROL."
But this is precisely what Raja Yoga sets out to provide: *thought control*. The difference might be that, even as Krishna asks of Arjuna in the bhakti approach, the `taming of the mind' is to be done voluntarily, and not imposed upon us from some kind of external authority.
Another traditional form of yoga is Karma Yoga, or the 'yoga of action.' At first glance, this might seem counter-intuitive. After all, isn't the idea in Eastern religions to *rid* oneself of karma??? Yes, that is true, but it is also understood that *every action* - and in fact, every thought and every feeling - automatically generates a certain degree of positive or negative karma. Prayer for example, of any type to any deity, would be considered as generating an overwhelmingly positive karma.
So the karma yogin simply goes about his or her daily business, seeking to generate as much positive karma (or merit) as possible, yet not for the sake of self alone. The altruistic nature of this yoga discipline is that one "simply does what is right for the sake of doing right, seeking no reward." Again, this sounds remarkably like teachings I have learned from within Christianity, perhaps even dovetailing with the Golden Rule.
A newer form of yoga than these ancient traditions is sometimes called Agni Yoga, which literally means `yoga of fire,' but which is often termed `the Teaching of Living Ethics' by its followers. One can read about it on Wikipedia, and evaluate it for oneself. This is a modern approach, and certainly does not focus on the practices of Hatha Yoga, or even the excercises of Raja Yoga. Nor is it recommended for everyone willy-nilly.
Perhaps of greatest interest to me along the lines of the discussion you have invited, Blazn, is something a family member related to me the other day. At her church, she pointed out, Yoga is being offered as a class, open to anyone regardless of belief and certainly regardless of interest in Eastern traditions. The focus is on improving one's health and well-being, on every level: physical, emotional, mental and spiritual.
This person is nearly 70 years old, and she was keen to point out that the Yoga is done sitting in a *chair*, so it is certainly not physically rigorous, though I do believe she said there is some stretching (postures, `asanas') involved. There is much more attention placed on relaxing, however, and also on learning to focus the mind and meditate.
I cannot fathom how any of this would be the least bit inharmonious to a sincere Christian ... certainly not to anyone seeking inner peace and spiritual upliftment. Perhaps these are not necessarily mutually inclusive?
Ah well, the class is optional - no one is *required* to attend. No one can force us to seek greater health on varoius levels, or to better ourselves. Like a healthy diet, this too is optional.
Zag
Don't forget that there are many types of yoga. Hatha and laya yoga are probably what most people mean when they use the term, especially in the context that seems to be under discussion (or "fire") here. This is the yoga of physical exercises (`asanas,' or postures), and concerns itself largely with physical health.
Bhakti yoga is the yoga of devotion, as exemplified by Vaishnavas ("Hare Krishnas," followers of ISKCON). One might also say that large numbers of Christians essentially follow a bhakti approach, especially those who are rather zealous about their faith. This is simply my observation ... a parallel I have noticed. It applies to Islam, and other traditions as well, to a lesser extent.
To illustrate my point, here's a small portion of the Wikipedia article under `bhakti,' the section on Theory of divine grace:
A person's fate is reflected mainly in the tendencies that he has created for himself through committed actions. He has total free will to surrender to God or not. But if he surrenders to Him heart and soul, He promises that He will take care of his pure devotee. This is famously illustrated in one of Krishna's final statements to Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita:
"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear". (Bhagavad Gita 18.66)
Now this seems quite familiar, if I recall my Sunday School lessons correctly! Even something about one of the Commandments?But other yogas also exist. Patanjali's Raja Yoga, or `kingly yoga,' is largely that of *mental disciplines*. This is not about playing twister or seeing who can attain the full lotus position.It is about the training of the mind ... something which the modern (public) schools seem to almost completely ignore, as if things will simply take care of themselves, magically somehow. Even the popular music screams "we don't need no education, we don't need no THOUGHT CONTROL."
But this is precisely what Raja Yoga sets out to provide: *thought control*. The difference might be that, even as Krishna asks of Arjuna in the bhakti approach, the `taming of the mind' is to be done voluntarily, and not imposed upon us from some kind of external authority.
Another traditional form of yoga is Karma Yoga, or the 'yoga of action.' At first glance, this might seem counter-intuitive. After all, isn't the idea in Eastern religions to *rid* oneself of karma??? Yes, that is true, but it is also understood that *every action* - and in fact, every thought and every feeling - automatically generates a certain degree of positive or negative karma. Prayer for example, of any type to any deity, would be considered as generating an overwhelmingly positive karma.
So the karma yogin simply goes about his or her daily business, seeking to generate as much positive karma (or merit) as possible, yet not for the sake of self alone. The altruistic nature of this yoga discipline is that one "simply does what is right for the sake of doing right, seeking no reward." Again, this sounds remarkably like teachings I have learned from within Christianity, perhaps even dovetailing with the Golden Rule.
A newer form of yoga than these ancient traditions is sometimes called Agni Yoga, which literally means `yoga of fire,' but which is often termed `the Teaching of Living Ethics' by its followers. One can read about it on Wikipedia, and evaluate it for oneself. This is a modern approach, and certainly does not focus on the practices of Hatha Yoga, or even the excercises of Raja Yoga. Nor is it recommended for everyone willy-nilly.
Perhaps of greatest interest to me along the lines of the discussion you have invited, Blazn, is something a family member related to me the other day. At her church, she pointed out, Yoga is being offered as a class, open to anyone regardless of belief and certainly regardless of interest in Eastern traditions. The focus is on improving one's health and well-being, on every level: physical, emotional, mental and spiritual.
This person is nearly 70 years old, and she was keen to point out that the Yoga is done sitting in a *chair*, so it is certainly not physically rigorous, though I do believe she said there is some stretching (postures, `asanas') involved. There is much more attention placed on relaxing, however, and also on learning to focus the mind and meditate.
I cannot fathom how any of this would be the least bit inharmonious to a sincere Christian ... certainly not to anyone seeking inner peace and spiritual upliftment. Perhaps these are not necessarily mutually inclusive?
Ah well, the class is optional - no one is *required* to attend. No one can force us to seek greater health on varoius levels, or to better ourselves. Like a healthy diet, this too is optional.
Zag
No, I'd simply appreciate you calling us what we are. I'm not some superhero with an "X" in front of the moniker. It isn't X-mas or X-tian. It is what it is...Christmas and Christian. There is a signifigant meaning to the terms, not to be taken lightly. If one can't say Christ, then that is a problem I should think. That is what we are (what and who I am, and make no apologies for it).
As far as homosexuality goes, well I got news for you...it isn't accepted by mainstream Christians. Never will be. So when someone states they do not play by the politically correct rules that some wish to impose on society, because it is against their faith, others have no choice but to accept that. That isn't "Gay" bashing. It is simply expression of belief, and as such is allowed.
As far a Muhammad is concerned, well he's dead, so Christians aren't concerned. Same with Buddah. In any event they have no relevence to Christianity. Islam is at the forefront of peoples' minds today, and quite frankly, not doing so well on showing itself as a peaceful faith. Of course there is going to be talk about it. It isn't Christian, nor even close to Christ like.
Speaking of which, if one's intention is to "waterdown" Christianity to the point where it is worthless, then of course Christians are going to stand up and take offense. That isn't homophobia, nor a phobia of any other kind. It's taking a stand on what is believed to be wrong. I'm not "closing ranks" with anyone at all. You're on the Christian forum.
One can say they disagree, but that is about it.
"Rights to express one's self" is a two way street.
However, your statement as I recall was a personal attack, with no little venom...
Francis King stated:"nice to see ur rabid fundamentalism is all encompassing, blaznfattyz.."
Clearly unacceptable, and what some would call, a cheap shot. That is the focal point of my original post cautioning you. Nothing more, nothing less.
No one threatened to "boot" anyone either. I think things have been taken out of context. Like Juan said, we all need to take a chill pill...
v/r
Joshua
(oh my, this is deja vu)
I'd have to add whenever I see a thread expressing concern whether one can mix any other ostensibly spiritual practice outside the traditional understandings with Christianity; oh for "heavens" sake
Hi Earl -
There's two questions here.
The one is personal preference. I, for example, practice 'sitting' as I was taught by Buddhists, and find it very comfortable ... but purely as a mental discipline and as a precursor to prayer. I do not take on the whole psychospiritual aspect ... so I don't practice Buddhist meditation, I just practice meditation as taught by masters who happened, on that occasion, to be Buddhist.
But there is an assumption that the one can 'add' to the other in the spiritual domain, and this is the error - the assumption that Christian practice is somehow deficient, or might benefit, from input from outside, is tantamount to saying it's only half a revelation, that somehow it is in principle or essence incomplete.
I doubt Buddhists would take kindly to the suggestion that Lectio Divina is a superlative cointemplative form they should embrace after they have sufficient training in meditation - and that with it Buddhist practice is enhanced or fulfilled.
So the benefit is personal, physical and psychological, which is fine as long as it does not conflict with doctrine (which embracing the ethos of Buddhism will).
However, the inclusion of such practice in a liturgical context opens onto a different dimension that is transpersonal, and here it is simply wrong, and I think every tradition would agree (with the exception, perhaps, of Hinduism – but then Buddhism can be seen as a 'reformation' of Hindu syncretism).
Thomas
Hi Earl -
There's two questions here.
The one is personal preference. I, for example, practice 'sitting' as I was taught by Buddhists, and find it very comfortable ... but purely as a mental discipline and as a precursor to prayer. I do not take on the whole psychospiritual aspect ... so I don't practice Buddhist meditation, I just practice meditation as taught by masters who happened, on that occasion, to be Buddhist.
But there is an assumption that the one can 'add' to the other in the spiritual domain, and this is the error - the assumption that Christian practice is somehow deficient, or might benefit, from input from outside, is tantamount to saying it's only half a revelation, that somehow it is in principle or essence incomplete.
I doubt Buddhists would take kindly to the suggestion that Lectio Divina is a superlative cointemplative form they should embrace after they have sufficient training in meditation - and that with it Buddhist practice is enhanced or fulfilled.
So the benefit is personal, physical and psychological, which is fine as long as it does not conflict with doctrine (which embracing the ethos of Buddhism will).
However, the inclusion of such practice in a liturgical context opens onto a different dimension that is transpersonal, and here it is simply wrong, and I think every tradition would agree (with the exception, perhaps, of Hinduism – but then Buddhism can be seen as a 'reformation' of Hindu syncretism).
Thomas
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*post problem.... Ingore this I can't delete it... sorry.*
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lmfao.... So a satanic orgy in church with the background music of the lords prayer would be classed harmless? Wow.
To be fair to some there is no significant meaning whatsoever... And some obviously will take it lightly... Not getting at anyone here but I ponder who's at fault? If the offense isn't offensive to the offending party.
I certainly believe that each major religiion is a complete practice which does not necessarily "lack" anything. However, one can also creatively cross-pollinate in terms of practices, (though admittedly not so much on the level of doctrines). Take this yoga & Chrisitianity issue:
http://www.storyfest.com/beatitudes.pdf
have a good one, earl
Take this yoga & Chrisitianity issue:
http://www.storyfest.com/beatitudes.pdf
Hmm ... not sure ... their definition of 'yoga' seems very suspect, made to suit their proposition ... what is jnana yoga if not the exercise of the discerning intellect?
Thomas
http://www.storyfest.com/beatitudes.pdf
Hmm ... not sure ... their definition of 'yoga' seems very suspect, made to suit their proposition ... what is jnana yoga if not the exercise of the discerning intellect?
Thomas
pattimax
Somewhat returning
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Roll your eyes at me young man! You the one who said it!
Hi Dondi –
How can it be dangerous to meditate on God?
It's not the object of the exercise (God) that is dangerous, its the methodology.
Posture and breathing, individually and in concert, can have quite profound psychodynamic and psychological effects ... in fact any such discipline, undertaken without supervision and informed direction, has inherent dangers not from outside, but from within, from the psyche - our own private 'Pandora's Box'. That's the danger ... and it is a very real risk.
I know this is not a popular viewpoint, but I listen seriously to the experts in any and every tradition, East and West, and the teaching is always the same – deep or intensive practice should not be attempted without adequate and expert direction and supervision.
+++
Hi Mark
Is there any connection with Hesychasm and Kriya yoga?
Yes ... and no ...
A good question, and central to the whole debate.
The monks of Mount Athos, for example, perhaps the foremost exponents of the Hesychast Way, do treat of posture and breathing as part of the practice, but they emphasise, quite emphatically, that all such 'technique' is secondary and in effect, accidental, the primary focus and object of Hesychasm being the operation of Divine Grace. Hence the Prayer of Simplicity and the Way of Stillness.
Yoga in that context is about self-power ... Prayer and Hesychasm is about other-power ... I know that's over-simplifying it, but basically yoga caught on in the West as a 'get results quick' technique, which is what the West is all about.
I once joked with an Orthodox Priest that I could never be Orthodox because my beard is too uneven (in fact more like the Chinese sage!). He told me the only reason they grew beards was to tell them how far forward to lean the head in meditation ... just enough for the tip of the beard to rest on the chest is about right ...
+++
When I was studying meditation under Buddhist teachers, I was told (as Catholics do) ignore all visions, voices ... in fact all phenomenal occurrance during meditation, the Buddhist say it's the ego playing games – and we all know the easiest person to fool is ourselves ... the Catholics say if God wants a word, He will make His presence known in no uncertain fashion ...
Let me say again – I have nothing personally against any 'technique' as long as, in a Christian context, it's understood that grace cannot be forced. I would further say that anything that can be arrived at by a practical methodology is thereby natural in itself and not necessarily 'spiritual' in a Christian context. The often-quoted benefits of meditation - peace, calm, relaxed, rested, vital, awake, energised, creative, etc,. are not spiritual qualities, they are natural qualities.
What I do object to is the idea that Christianity – or any tradition for that matter – might itself benefit from, or be deficient in, something that needs be imported from without.
Thomas
Thomas
Hesychasm is the Way of Stillness
How can it be dangerous to meditate on God?
It's not the object of the exercise (God) that is dangerous, its the methodology.
Posture and breathing, individually and in concert, can have quite profound psychodynamic and psychological effects ... in fact any such discipline, undertaken without supervision and informed direction, has inherent dangers not from outside, but from within, from the psyche - our own private 'Pandora's Box'. That's the danger ... and it is a very real risk.
I know this is not a popular viewpoint, but I listen seriously to the experts in any and every tradition, East and West, and the teaching is always the same – deep or intensive practice should not be attempted without adequate and expert direction and supervision.
+++
Hi Mark
Is there any connection with Hesychasm and Kriya yoga?
Yes ... and no ...
A good question, and central to the whole debate.
The monks of Mount Athos, for example, perhaps the foremost exponents of the Hesychast Way, do treat of posture and breathing as part of the practice, but they emphasise, quite emphatically, that all such 'technique' is secondary and in effect, accidental, the primary focus and object of Hesychasm being the operation of Divine Grace. Hence the Prayer of Simplicity and the Way of Stillness.
Yoga in that context is about self-power ... Prayer and Hesychasm is about other-power ... I know that's over-simplifying it, but basically yoga caught on in the West as a 'get results quick' technique, which is what the West is all about.
I once joked with an Orthodox Priest that I could never be Orthodox because my beard is too uneven (in fact more like the Chinese sage!). He told me the only reason they grew beards was to tell them how far forward to lean the head in meditation ... just enough for the tip of the beard to rest on the chest is about right ...
+++
When I was studying meditation under Buddhist teachers, I was told (as Catholics do) ignore all visions, voices ... in fact all phenomenal occurrance during meditation, the Buddhist say it's the ego playing games – and we all know the easiest person to fool is ourselves ... the Catholics say if God wants a word, He will make His presence known in no uncertain fashion ...
Let me say again – I have nothing personally against any 'technique' as long as, in a Christian context, it's understood that grace cannot be forced. I would further say that anything that can be arrived at by a practical methodology is thereby natural in itself and not necessarily 'spiritual' in a Christian context. The often-quoted benefits of meditation - peace, calm, relaxed, rested, vital, awake, energised, creative, etc,. are not spiritual qualities, they are natural qualities.
What I do object to is the idea that Christianity – or any tradition for that matter – might itself benefit from, or be deficient in, something that needs be imported from without.
Thomas
Thomas
Hesychasm is the Way of Stillness
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
... creativity is not a spiritual "quality" at all. It is the 3rd Aspect of Deity!
Let's look at this another way. In order to gain entry into college, students must demonstrate a certain level of mathematical aptitude. Let us take two individuals, one the normal age for college acceptance, the other a child prodigy of say, 10 years old. The 18-year-old has had all the math courses, has been in the classroom with fellow students, and has been a very good math scholar. He passes his SAT exams easily, and gets into the college of his choice.Thomas said:
The child prodigy, by contrast, has never even taken a course on alegebra, much less trigonometry or calculus. He has not studied higher math with his fellow students, but rather has learned all he knows on his own, by *forcing* his way through various textbooks and exercises. He takes the SAT, scores perfectly in all categories, and like the other student is admitted to the college of his choice. His grades enable him to choose Yale or Harvard, but the point is, he has attained just as well as (or even better than) the older student.
Shall we say that the accomplishments of the prodigy do not count, that his circumstances are unusual (or somehow attributable to "nature alone," to be fair to the argument against meditation or Yoga)? He is not autistic, he does not pass his exams in a trance. Quite simply he has been able to apply himself, demonstrate mathematical aptitude equal to or greater than older, college-age students, and he has won the right to be accepted into college as a result. He may thank his lucky stars, or thank God, or whomever/whatever, for his gift and ability, but the fact remains: had he not applied himself and studied this *heretical* doctrine of higher math ahead of schedule, he would not be entering college early.
As for Grace, this may be one way to account for this young child's abilities, but once again - had he not applied himself, Grace would have been unable to get him into college. He applied HIMSELF, and he learned, and his mathematical exercises DID help him to pass his entrance exams with flying colors. Also, the sun shines brightly, and warmly, upon us all.
To suggest that the benefits of yoga are all reducible to no more than "natural results" while the devoted Christian (hesychast or otherwise) is somehow reaping the *real* "spiritual" rewards ... is pure absurdity. To say that various asanas fit best into one or the other yoga tradition makes good sense. To say that the yoga traditions, or various schools/disciplines, are complementary one with the other, makes good sense. To apply this logic to Christianity makes equally good sense, although I am not thoroughly acquainted with the hesychastic tradition.
But to try and strawman the possible - or even *proven* - value of Yoga, within Christianity or indeed ANY tradition ... really just shows one thing. It demonstrates a static understanding of something that has ever been, is now, and ever shall be PROGRESSIVE. And that is Revelation. God does not freeze-frame spiritual or religious reality, any more so than the growth of trees, birds, ecosystems and NATURE ... nor any more so than the growth of the individual, of economic theory, of the many scientific discplines, and all the branches of the arts.
Even if it is the LAST domain in which we finally recognize and accept that *here, too, is Progress*, we cannot help but one day see it. Completion, or perfection, is a flexible and dynamic reality, both approachable and attainable. Yoga, for some - Christian and non-Christian alike - benefits people on EVERY level, and the voice telling us that "this is not of God" or that "what you're doing is not REALLY worthwhile spiritually because there's no grace about it" ... ah well, like you said Thomas: Best to ignore all visions and voices; it is just the ego playing games.
~Zag
Let's look at this another way ...
Actually, I'd rather not – we can come up with a multitude of hypothetical situations to justify ourselves, but I'd rather go with the tried, tested and proven method espoused by Tradition – whatever the Tradition – as the way to go.
No offence, I'm just old fashioned like that. I happen to agree with Prof. Huston Smith – that master of comparative religion, who said "Religion is the winnowed wisdom of the human race."
Thomas.
Actually, I'd rather not – we can come up with a multitude of hypothetical situations to justify ourselves, but I'd rather go with the tried, tested and proven method espoused by Tradition – whatever the Tradition – as the way to go.
No offence, I'm just old fashioned like that. I happen to agree with Prof. Huston Smith – that master of comparative religion, who said "Religion is the winnowed wisdom of the human race."
Thomas.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Thomas,
It seems many people go outside of Orthodox Christianity to find a mystic connection. Being Confirmed Lutheran I didn't find anything of substance in Christianity in the normal teachings in church. It is only now as my head turns grey that I have embraced the Church in seeking the very mysticism I went looking for so very many years ago.
Is there perhaps something that needs changing in how the Church is presented? Or is it only a few persons who, still being hungry, search deeper into the Mysteries?
Peace
Mark
It seems many people go outside of Orthodox Christianity to find a mystic connection. Being Confirmed Lutheran I didn't find anything of substance in Christianity in the normal teachings in church. It is only now as my head turns grey that I have embraced the Church in seeking the very mysticism I went looking for so very many years ago.
Is there perhaps something that needs changing in how the Church is presented? Or is it only a few persons who, still being hungry, search deeper into the Mysteries?
Peace
Mark
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Well I'm certainly with you there! And for simplicity's sake - not withstanding your comments on things like pranayama - I'd have to also go with what pattimax said: Christian yoga is harmless. When my own mother says she gets something out of it, I'm not going to give her a hard time. And if she comments that "it's just relaxing," ah well, I can accept that!
~Zag
I don't know, I think it hokum.
Bending in this posture and breathing slowly is going to cause x, y or z.
Yes but x, y, and z are more oxygen to your brain, increased endorphins, brain waves settling.
Meditation...go into the room and close the door...whether we think this is a physical room or simply closing our mind to outside influences...give me a break...I need a tutor, a mentor, to sit down and shut up? It isn't safe?
I don't know, I think it hokum.
Bending in this posture and breathing slowly is going to cause x, y or z.
Yes but x, y, and z are more oxygen to your brain, increased endorphins, brain waves settling.
Meditation...go into the room and close the door...whether we think this is a physical room or simply closing our mind to outside influences...give me a break...I need a tutor, a mentor, to sit down and shut up? It isn't safe?
I don't know, I think it hokum.
Hey Zagreus – don't get me wrong.
I practice zazan a la Soto Zen, because it suits me, but I don't think Christianity is deficient, it's just a person flavour, a hangup from my martial arts days...
Likewise I think the techniques of mindfulness and loving kindness (mettabhavana) that I learned are staggering and powerful, and I can incorporate them into my Christian practice, but I do so in a Christian context, I don't embrace the Buddhist nontheist perspective ... nor do I think they're necessarily 'spiritual' - in fact I would say they are utterly 'human' in the sense of that's what we should be like.
The point about 'Christian yoga' – which I might have more fruitfully said at the outset – what the heck do they think prayer is?
What do they think yoga is?
Thomas
I practice zazan a la Soto Zen, because it suits me, but I don't think Christianity is deficient, it's just a person flavour, a hangup from my martial arts days...
Likewise I think the techniques of mindfulness and loving kindness (mettabhavana) that I learned are staggering and powerful, and I can incorporate them into my Christian practice, but I do so in a Christian context, I don't embrace the Buddhist nontheist perspective ... nor do I think they're necessarily 'spiritual' - in fact I would say they are utterly 'human' in the sense of that's what we should be like.
The point about 'Christian yoga' – which I might have more fruitfully said at the outset – what the heck do they think prayer is?
What do they think yoga is?
Thomas
Now that makes more sense to me Thomas... I could be totally lost, but isn't it that Buddhism is nontheist but just doesn't concern itself with the nature and existence of G-d? Isn't it not that it believes or doesn't believe but that it concerns itself more with the seen and the here, than the unseen and the later?