scriptural basis for christian objection to homosexuality

[17th Angel]

A few interesting scriptures to consider hmmm

Gen 2:24 reads....

That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.

Gen 13:13 reads....

And the men of Sod´om were bad and were gross sinners against Jehovah.

Romans 1:27 reads...

and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.

Jude 1:7 reads.....

So too Sod´om and Go·mor´rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.

Lev 18:22 reads...

And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.

Ezekiel 16:49 - 50 reads.....

Look! This is what proved to be the error of Sod´om your sister: Pride, sufficiency of bread and the carefreeness of keeping undisturbed were what happened to belong to her and her dependent towns, and the hand of the afflicted one and the poor one she did not strengthen. And they continued to be haughty and to carry on a detestable thing before me, and I finally removed them, just as I saw [fit].

Just some interesting ones to read there...

 

[bananabrain]

does anybody think that the rapid disappearance of real privacy in all walks of life might be having an effect upon how we all regard sexual practices and behaviors? I'm inclined to believe that this is having a profound effect on western societies at least, notwithstanding what scripture tells us to do and how to behave in sexual matters.

i think this is a very good point.

@silas: if you don't want to discuss it, you are not obliged to. your choice.

Christians follow Jesus' teachings, Jesus follows God the Father's will and God the Father says that homosexuality is an abomination.

but if you have understood my earlier post, it is simply not as simplistic as that. the Torah works in a particular way and so does the language within it and the law derived from it. what i said was that properly understood, it can only be established with certainty that a particular homosexual behaviour, namely anal sex, is not permitted to jews, along with a bunch of other stuff we're not allowed to do. we have also established that "sexual immorality" is in the noahide laws (which are not, of course explicitly listed in the Torah, but derived via halakhic interpretation) is not to be understood simply as referring to homosexuality but to a whole set of exploitative, violent, non-consensual and idolatrous behaviours - it is *not at all* clear that this refers to committed, monogamous, consensual, loving homosexual partners, who i cannot see as being at all harmful to me, to society or to G!D.

Yo BB, there are plenty of Christian sects/denominations that accept homosexuals as members of thier church and clergy...tis what the riot is about.

yes, i understand that, but i am wondering how these sects/denominations deal with the passages from romans and corinthians?

What is the command of G!D in the beginning?

"So G!D Created man in the Divine Image, Created him in the Divine Image; male and female Created them.
G!D Blessed them, and God Said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it: and rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." - Genesis 1:27-28

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall be joined to his wife: and they shall be one flesh." - Genesis 2:24

It is clear that this is the order of creation, before the fall of Man.

not at all! for a start, you will notice that in one verse, humanity is referred to both as singular and plural. our tradition understands this in a number of complicated ways, in particular that the original proto-human was Created with both male and female characteristics - the separation of the sexes (originally joined at the rib) does not take place until later. therefore one could easily make an argument that a certain androgyny was built into humanity from the very beginning - but it is only reproduction that is actually commanded, as opposed to pleasure, which is more of a value-add, as we'd say at work.

But you will notice that there was a fundamental change in the countenance of man. The woman now had to give birth with travailing pain, and the man had to work by the sweat of his brow, and the whole creation was cursed.

you may also be unaware that our tradition says that one of the reasons G!D decided to split the sexes is that the proto-adam was starting to get a little too friendly with the animals in the garden, if you catch my drift. even after the split, but before the fruit-eating, there was sex, but it was animal-style, meaning that the specifically female end of it did not involve much desire; there were no female orgasms in the garden, or something like that (see gen. 3:16) - so the "order of creation" is nothing like as straightforward as you suppose.

the whole creation was cursed. What the fall did was disrupt the perfect nature of creation. The ground was cursed because of Adam's sake. As a result, the natural became unnatural. The thistles and thorns sprouted up in the garden, where there were none before.

this is absolutely not our understanding of the difference between the edenic state. we do not believe that the world is unnatural, or that sex is bad, or that work is bad. choice implies free-will, as i've said before - and real life requires challenge. without challenge, how can you have choice to meet the challenge or fail it?

I think it also affected the animals. So it is no surprise to me that certain animals exhibit deviant behaviour as well, for they are also cursed.

there is no support in the Text for this view. we do not agree that everyone has been cursed - this is a christian view which is presumably required in order for salvation and so on. we don't believe this is necessary, so i suppose this is at the bottom (so to speak) of our different attitudes to sexuality.

Then perhaps you can direct me to process of halakhah in regards to homosexual behaviour. Do you have a link or reference?

it is a complicated subject but here is a good place to start: MyJewishLearning.com - Ideas & Belief: Overview: Jewish Views on Homose and MyJewishLearning.com - Ideas & Belief: Homosexuality and Halakhah

What we cannot agree on is on the issues like homosexual behavior and abortion. Both of which oppose clear teaching from the scriptures.

clearer in yours than in mine, to be precise. and in any case, the action to be taken is even less clear.

Homosexual behavior is disruptive because it undetermines the sanctity of marriage ordered by G!D. It doesn't procreate the species.

ok, but this is not the only reason for sex as far as we are concerned.

Furthermore, it is subject to the spreading of all kinds of disease which can affect the health of the society.

oh, come on. by far the greater incidence of AIDS, for example, is transmitted by heterosexuals. viruses do not discriminate.

So tell me, does your tradition treat rebellious children and adulterer's? Shouldn't they be stoned by the congregation? Or is all that kind of thing rhetorical?

have you read any of the stuff i have written about the death penalty? take a look here:

http://www.comparative-religion.com...ight=bananabrain+capital+punishment#post10564
http://www.comparative-religion.com...ight=bananabrain+capital+punishment#post21860
http://www.comparative-religion.com...ight=bananabrain+capital+punishment#post22144

these posts ought to answer your question.

I'd say Jesus was far less tolerant about sin than you think

well, i'd say like anyone, he had his irritable days.

@lunamoth: thanks verey much for the peter gomes quote. that pretty much puts it in a nutshell as far as i can see - clearly he can reconcile things to a degree.

First, you may have started this thread, but you don't own it. I'll write about anything I damn well please. Dondi gave you an excellent response, what more do you want?

sorry CCS - of course, i don't own it, but it seemed at one point to be turning into a set of anecdotes, personal opinions and generalisations, which for me is less valuable; i was just trying to get back to the texts rather than be diverted off into "how would you feel about X" and "what about gay porn" and so on.

You seem to be saying that O.K., our Torah condemns homosexuality, but, we don't do what the Torah says anyway, so why should we make an exception for this?

hehe. that would be a slightly cynical interpretation of what i am saying, but in a nutshell, i believe although all this stuff is equally important, that G!D's priorities work rather differently than ours and that we are expected to sort out things between human-and-human rather than between human-and-G!D, because G!D Is perfectly capable of dumping on gays if it were necessary. there's no need for us to pre-empt G!D's priorities if G!D isn't doing so. in fact we might actually be smart and take the hint - clearly these things happen for a reason, even if we don't necessarily understand it ourselves.

Let's just be honest and say we don't buy what the Bible says because it's silly and out of date.

i think that rather than this, G!D approves of our using our brains to make a case. the following sources would be of help, i suspect:

Oral Law - Legitimacy of Innovation

the particular question to understand is the talmudic debate over the oven of achnai, where G!D *Laughs*, saying "My children have defeated Me". why would G!D Laugh if not pleased?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[17th Angel]

but if you have understood my earlier post, it is simply not as simplistic as that. the Torah works in a particular way and so does the language within it and the law derived from it.

Scriptural basis for christian objection to homosexuality, thats the topic right? ;/ I don't see what the Torah has to do with it.... Explain please? :/

 

[wil]

Quote:
But you will notice that there was a fundamental change in the countenance of man. The woman now had to give birth with travailing pain, and the man had to work by the sweat of his brow, and the whole creation was cursed.
you may also be unaware that our tradition says that one of the reasons G!D decided to split the sexes is that the proto-adam was starting to get a little too friendly with the animals in the garden, if you catch my drift. even after the split, but before the fruit-eating, there was sex, but it was animal-style, meaning that the specifically female end of it did not involve much desire; there were no female orgasms in the garden, or something like that (see gen. 3:16) - so the "order of creation" is nothing like as straightforward as you suppose.

Quote:
the whole creation was cursed. What the fall did was disrupt the perfect nature of creation. The ground was cursed because of Adam's sake. As a result, the natural became unnatural. The thistles and thorns sprouted up in the garden, where there were none before.
this is absolutely not our understanding of the difference between the edenic state. we do not believe that the world is unnatural, or that sex is bad, or that work is bad. choice implies free-will, as i've said before - and real life requires challenge. without challenge, how can you have choice to meet the challenge or fail it?

Namaste all,

Such a wealth of information. We must all be aware that as Christians we use our Bible. A book of 66 books, selected out of hundreds to be our be all and end all. What BB is referring to is the mountain of information and stories that accompany what we refer to as the Old Testament. We have basically selectively taken a portion of the Judaic thought, and a portion of the Christian thought and combined it into one book and have left out probably 90% of the available information that was floating around during Jesus day and the first centuries afterword. Jesus studied and learned the information BB is referring to...we just haven't as the powers that were that bound the book for us deemed it not cannonical.

 

[Quahom1]

Come on Q, that's a little off, to say everything you want to say and then leave me without a means of reply.
Firstly it's not as simple as you think. You object to homosexuality, I am not sure that I agree with your objection, but you're a Biblical guy and as such there are more than enough texts in the Bible to justify your objection. That's fine, I can't argue with you there.
It's the stories though, the entirely subjective little observations you use to try and validify your opinion.

Then speak your mind.

My little stories are all I have, because that is what I haved lived and experienced. And there isn't one good story to tell that would shed a little glimmer of positive light on the subject.

I don't discount parts of the Bible to fit my mold of what I think should be.

As far as the US getting blown up and put on the ash heap of history...it hasn't happened yet.

 

[InLove]

Just wanted to jump in here for a second to thank both bananabrain and lunamoth for the links provided. Much food for thought there. Very helpful.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[paul]

Scripture, life, creation, nature, it shows us homosexuality is an evil.

Not a voilent evil as to deliberately hurt someone, but something which developes in certain people and we have the reasons even for this in life and scripture.

What we see with homosexuals from their own testimonies is that this evil can develope in them because of sexual abuse they have suffered.

Surely from this we see it is an evil state.

Also we see in Scripture it says God gave them up, because of self worship and they turn from Him.
We see the type of people homosexuals are, they are very theatrical, want to be the centre of attention, it is all about self, that's why scripture says it is fitting that God gave them up to such a sexuality, if you can call it that.

We see in scripture and history and life, religion, Prophets, great men of God, Saints, they are never homosexual.

We even see the great error and lack of truth and understanding and spirituality in homosexuals that they have even tried to pervert historical men of God to have had homosexual desires.
They have accused David and Johnathan, even Jesus and His disciples.

If anyone has any spiritual understanding, you can plain see their error, their lies, their lack of understanding, of spirituality and love, for if they had it, they would not have accused such men and even women of such.

The historical Saints, the very ones who perserved the scripture, who passed it down, who lived it, who confirmed it by their own lives.
The ones who submitted to the love of God above all people throughout history, are always of one voice, one understanding, on homosexuality and many other things.
To say scripture ever remotely condones the evil of homosexuality, to say it doesn't even clearly condemn homosexuality as evil, is clearly from the mind of man, and contrary to the scripture.

For of the lies of men on using scripture to condone homosexuality you can trace it's orgins to men, being a new teaching orginating from themselves.
And such having no real understanding of scripture, of life, of spirituality, but speaking contrary it.

And this can be proved.
Whether people are willing to listen and accept, is something else.
But it can be proved to all, and the only way to dismiss it, is to dismiss religion, to dismiss scripture, to dismiss God.

 

[Silas]

Scripture, life, creation, nature, it shows us homosexuality is an evil.

Good point! We dont have to bring scripture into this, the truth is obvious enough. For this fact, the Bible says, "if you want to believe a lie, God will give you over to a depraved mind whereby you will believe and live this lie." Romans 1 speaks about this indepth and it is scary. The truth about homosexuality is axiomatic, we all know intrinsically that it is wrong. We, however, choose to supress the truth and choose to believe that it is OK. This is why God's hell is just. We choose to break His laws and sin agaisnt Him. We dont love Him - we love sin and self. We dont deserve God!

 

[bananabrain]

Scripture, life, creation, nature, it shows us homosexuality is an evil.

i refer you to my earlier point about 1500 species having been shown to engage in homosexual behaviour with no evidence to suggest that it is, as you say "evil". how can something be "evil" if evil requires free-will to exist and animals don't have free-will? this simply flies in the face of reason and evidence - including biblical evidence and reasoning.

For of the lies of men on using scripture to condone homosexuality you can trace it's orgins to men, being a new teaching orginating from themselves.
And such having no real understanding of scripture, of life, of spirituality, but speaking contrary it.

ahem - i think i have demonstrated pretty conclusively that it's not me that lacks understanding of "scripture" but those who think they can interpret Torah without any knowledge of hebrew or jewish law. obviously as far as christian texts are concerned, i defer to my christian friends, but they don't seem that clear about it themselves either, although the loudest denouncers seem to be those who are least concerned with the actual Text and more with rationalising their own prejudices. and don't try that pseudo-biblical tone on me, because it makes you feel like somehow G!D is speaking through you. that's a shabby rhetorical trick.

We dont have to bring scripture into this, the truth is obvious enough...The truth about homosexuality is axiomatic, we all know intrinsically that it is wrong.

hur, hur, hur. i am always amazed at how some people seem so clear about how obvious the truth is when the most intelligent, wise and learned people on the planet have found it to be consistently complicated and recondite. i think the conclusion should probably be obvious. amazingly, homosexuals don't seem to "know intrinsically" that it is wrong - i think you actually ought to go out and talk to one or two if you're really interested in finding out how the world actually works.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Faithfulservant]

hmm I hear more accounts of homosexuals battling shame and fear than wholly accepting their sexual preference. If its not wrong why then do they have fear and shame? I already know you are going to say its society's views... but then how come in the entire history of the world is it just now becoming acceptable??? Somethings wrong whether people will admit it or not.

 

[wil]

hmm I hear more accounts of homosexuals battling shame and fear than wholly accepting their sexual preference. If its not wrong why then do they have fear and shame? I already know you are going to say its society's views... but then how come in the entire history of the world is it just now becoming acceptable??? Somethings wrong whether people will admit it or not.

Why do they have fear and shame?? That sure isn't hard to contemplate, when ****** and homo are words that are used regularly to demean people. When everywhere they go, including the church that they were raised in people stare, point, whisper or openly condemn....I don't know why they hide their preferences from others...

Today smoking and excessive sugar and transfats is on its downturn...it is passing its heyday..when conspicuous consumption of things detrimental to the body temple were the 'in' thing.... Nudity, and what body parts are acceptable to be exposed in what situations...is always on a rollercoaster...society to society...time to time...

Why are women shamed for breastfeeding in public...do we think G-d doesn't want them to feed their child? It has to do with the prudish nature of western society...shamed a civilization so much that in the 1950's almost 100% of the mothers and doctors decided that formula was better than what G-d provided and completely cut a swath across the entire US, and for almost two generations no child received the immunities that were passed down from mother to child for millenia.

It appears to me this issue, like most others has been on a rollercoaster...of acceptablity and unacceptable... There were times when much of what we consider homosexual acts were part of the unmarried males culture...all to change at manhood and when one takes a wife, or consort...

I've got no horse in this race. I am not gay, don't have a large contingent of gay friends. But I truly can't see jumping on the bandwagon to condemn them for their actions...and don't see that they've done something I need to forgive them for either...

I do believe as usual I've got a lot of work to get myself further down the path before I start to tackle the foibles of those around me.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Why do they have fear and shame?? That sure isn't hard to contemplate, when ****** and homo are words that are used regularly to demean people. When everywhere they go, including the church that they were raised in people stare, point, whisper or openly condemn....I don't know why they hide their preferences from others...

Today smoking and excessive sugar and transfats is on its downturn...it is passing its heyday..when conspicuous consumption of things detrimental to the body temple were the 'in' thing.... Nudity, and what body parts are acceptable to be exposed in what situations...is always on a rollercoaster...society to society...time to time...

Why are women shamed for breastfeeding in public...do we think G-d doesn't want them to feed their child? It has to do with the prudish nature of western society...shamed a civilization so much that in the 1950's almost 100% of the mothers and doctors decided that formula was better than what G-d provided and completely cut a swath across the entire US, and for almost two generations no child received the immunities that were passed down from mother to child for millenia.

It appears to me this issue, like most others has been on a rollercoaster...of acceptablity and unacceptable... There were times when much of what we consider homosexual acts were part of the unmarried males culture...all to change at manhood and when one takes a wife, or consort...

I've got no horse in this race. I am not gay, don't have a large contingent of gay friends. But I truly can't see jumping on the bandwagon to condemn them for their actions...and don't see that they've done something I need to forgive them for either...

I do believe as usual I've got a lot of work to get myself further down the path before I start to tackle the foibles of those around me.

 

[Dor]

They will still be here when Im gone.

 

[paul]

as far as christian texts are concerned, i defer to my christian friends, but they don't seem that clear about it themselves either, although the loudest denouncers seem to be those who are least concerned with the actual Text and more with rationalising their own prejudices. and don't try that pseudo-biblical tone on me, because it makes you feel like somehow G!D is speaking through you. that's a shabby rhetorical trick.

I'm not suggesting God is speaking through me, but through His Saints throughout history, but it is you who hold yourself up as if you have a better understanding than them as many do.
But the truth of God Himself shines through them continually, thoughs who try to extinguish the flame, only push themselves away from getting a light off them.

 

[bananabrain]

I'm not suggesting G!D is Speaking through me, but through His Saints throughout history

i am not disputing that. what i am disputing is how the words transmitted via the saints are understood and interpreted.

but it is you who hold yourself up as if you have a better understanding than them as[sic] many do.

well, i don't know about that, but when people quote jewish texts to me i feel it is only right that they understand how jews interpret these texts.

But the truth of G!D Himself shines through them continually, thoughs who try to extinguish the flame, only push themselves away from getting a light off them.

i'm not trying to "extinguish the flame". i'm trying to prevent people like you from using it to set fire to homosexuals.

didn't jesus say something like "render unto caesar what is caesar's, but render unto G!D what is G!D's"? i am saying that the putative sanctioning or punishment of homosexuality is not a matter for human action, but for G!D, insofar as it is no skin off my behind what someone else does in their bedroom.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[taijasi]

i am saying that the putative sanctioning or punishment of homosexuality is not a matter for human action, but for G!D, insofar as it is no skin off my behind what someone else does in their bedroom.

Not meaning to but into a discussion I haven't been following ... but why on earth a person would want do this kind of policing of others' moral, private behavior, relations, relationships, etc. - is beyond me.

So, too, do I think it is, or should be, beyond ALL of us, no matter what we believe about homosexuality ... or is it that we really just don't think God can handle it, and that WE need to run things for Him?

It's also wrong to steal, blaspheme, commit adultery, and so on ... yet I don't hear Christian objections to people cursing their kids, and each other, in Wal-Mart!

I mean, come on, why not launch a crusade to STAMP OUT the blasphemers, and thieves!?! Poor Fred Phelps, you missed your true calling!

The way I look at it, occasionally homosexuality becomes a genuine social problem and a cause for concern, because you have a sicko daycare pedophile who just has to go and ruin it for everybody!

But aside from that, and our Michael Jacksons, let's just remember WHAT great religious Institution has been under the most fire for the past couple or so years - for precisely this issue of HOMOSEXUALITY! More specifically, err, pedophilia! Yuk!!!

Hmm. Sounds like an internal problem to me.

Guess I shouldn't have butted in. But then, I have gay friends, I'm gay-friendly, and while I, myself, have reservations and preferences ... I also agree strongly with what bananabrain just posted - SO, I can't understand why people apparently have no faith that "God's got things under control," to speak colloquially.

 

[paul]

i am not disputing that. what i am disputing is how the words transmitted via the saints are understood and interpreted.


well, i don't know about that, but when people quote jewish texts to me i feel it is only right that they understand how jews interpret these texts.


i'm not trying to "extinguish the flame". i'm trying to prevent people like you from using it to set fire to homosexuals.

didn't jesus say something like "render unto caesar what is caesar's, but render unto G!D what is G!D's"? i am saying that the putative sanctioning or punishment of homosexuality is not a matter for human action, but for G!D, insofar as it is no skin off my behind what someone else does in their bedroom.

b'shalom

bananabrain

There can be no doubt of the one voice the Saints all throughout history held on this subject.

There is different interperatations in Judaism, we talking here of the Christian Scripture.
So I would think we are talking of the Christian interperatation of the Scriptures, who originally were Jews and witnessed to having the mysteries of the Jewsih faith revealed to them.
It would be said by them that the Jews of today and even of Jesus's day, are ignorant to much of the meaning of their own faith, but that they hold the true understanding of it.

I'm not about hurting any one, your making blind accusations which i have given you no reason for.

Everyone has their own freewill to do as they please whether even evil or not.
There is a law of the land which tries to prevent much evil, but is far from perfect.

We're not discussing here what someone does in their own bedroom, we're discussing the scriptural basis for Christian objection to homosexuality.

This is their beleif as a faith, not what should be forced on others, but something that is to speak to peoples hearts and works a change in them.

The only person a Christian is called to correct is their own children, and to help others in the correct ways of their own faith if the other is willing.

The question is aksed here in a Christian section, and i would think by the title and the section they've asked it in they seek the understanding of the Christian faith.
Nobody is quoting Jewish texts to you as your understanding of Judaism.
But to the Christian understanding of the meaning of what was given to Moses, David, the Prophets etc., and Jesus's followers.

i think it maybe a case of you forcing your interperatation on others, where it's not been asked of you.

 

[taijasi]

I will repeat my question. WHY Homosexuality? Why not other "sins"?

Is it, as I think you may have suggested, Faithful, because this is coming into the spotlight, because there is more awareness - even acceptance - of homosexuality?

If this is so, and even if we can cite passage after passage after passage telling us that homosexuality is a sin, what does it accomplish?

My inquiry is really just to find out if the purpose of this, and similar threads, is to form an amen corner, or perhaps help Christians to reassure themselves that God doesn't like homosexuality, because the Bible tells me so.

Sure, that sounds sarcastic, but it's a legimate question. What's the POINT? That's what I'm asking!

And it also comes back to why not freak out about eleventy-five hundred other odd "sins"? But that would make sense, if it's due to homosexuality being "in the news."

Still, for every Biblical passage anyone might quote, stating that sodomy is a sin, yadda yadda, I will cite FIVE telling you that we should love our neighbor as ourselves, love our enemies rather than hate them (whoever our "enemies" happen to be), and seek to FORGIVE others, even as Our Father Who Art in Heaven forgives US. Not that homosexuals have sinned against us, but just to cover all the bases ...

And what can I prove, by such endless scripture-quoting? Perhaps, as wil said, what a long way we all have to go ....

 

[bananabrain]

(andrew, it's nice to see you and i agreeing for once.)

There can be no doubt of the one voice the Saints all throughout history held on this subject.

well, actually, yes there can. at least there can be in jewish terms, although if by saints you mean the christian ones then i'll let that one go.

There is different interperatations in Judaism, we talking here of the Christian Scripture.

yes, but where the christian scripture relies on the jewish scripture for authority, i have a case to argue whether the interpretation is correct. plus, when you originally jumped in, you were appealing to *nature* and other "intrinsic" stuff as evidence that homosexuality was wrong. stick to christian scripture, because judging from the science and the empirical evidence from biology, you're on a bit of a sticky wicket.

It would be said by them that the Jews of today and even of Jesus's day, are ignorant to much of the meaning of their own faith, but that they hold the true understanding of it.

well, i may be misunderstanding you, but that sounds like you are arguing that these christian saints have the true understanding of the jewish faith, which i fear i would not be able to agree with.

I'm not about hurting anyone, you're making blind accusations which i have given you no reason for.

perhaps not, but the record of christians who are opposed to homosexuality on biblical grounds is not exactly stellar, so you can hardly blame me for my concern.

This is their beleif as a faith, not what should be forced on others, but something that is to speak to peoples hearts and works a change in them.

but if you are going up to 'big gay al' or whoever and "speaking to his heart", as you put it, i would be hard put to distinguish that from forcing your opinions upon him.

The only person a Christian is called to correct is their own children, and to help others in the correct ways of their own faith if the other is willing.

what if the child knows he's gay and can't do anything about it? there's plenty of evidence for that.

Nobody is quoting Jewish texts to you as your understanding of Judaism. But to the Christian understanding of the meaning of what was given to Moses, David, the Prophets etc., and Jesus's followers.

"what was given" to all those guys were the *jewish texts*, therefore if you are positing an interpretation of them, it will have to stand up to scrutiny. and, before anyone objects, i'm not saying non-jewish interpretations are inherently inaccurate, but i am saying that they may be incorrectly contextualised and therefore as a result could be questioned.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Faithfulservant]

From a Christian perspective.. any sexual sin is "bad" because you are sinning against the body which is the temple of God. You cannot live in a homosexual lifestyle ever and be in Christ. You can be homosexual and be in Christ.. its the act of sinning that is the lifestyle that is abhorrent to the Spirit and because He is God he cannot be in your sin. THe same goes for fornication and adulterers. The problem with homosexual society is that they do not believe they are in sin when they commit sexual acts.. they think they are ok and its a lie meant to deceive.

Its self control.. Just because I have a temptation to sin doesnt mean I have a right to act on it. temptation + action = sin. I feel for homosexuals because imagine having to deny yourself that part of you that is so huge.. your sexuality. Teens have to do it all the time.. people used to wait till they were married btw.. doesnt anyone remember that? Why is it so different now.. suddenly just because you have an urge does that mean you have to indulge??