scriptural basis for christian objection to homosexuality

Kindest Regards, FaithfulServant!
Faithfulservant said:
people used to wait till they were married btw.. doesnt anyone remember that?
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Probably off topic, but I gotta respond. :D

I remember when this "used to be." Even then, it really wasn't. ;) Yes, it was scandalous to have a child out of wedlock, but it happened...all too frequently. Couples got married because she was pregnant (how many gals just a generation or so ago got themselves knocked up just to catch a husband?). How successful were shotgun marriages? Not very.

I know many of us have an idealized image of what it was like 50 years ago when everything was white bread and picket fences...but the truth is there never was an "Ozzie and Harriet" or "Leave It to Beaver" society. These were idealized images that promoted a lifestyle (one I might add that included segregation, sexism and a few other discriminatory practices) that we were to strive for. These images are still worth striving for, stripped of the discrimination. But the reality is probably more like "the Honeymooners," or at best "I Love Lucy." "Father Knows Best" is a wonderful image to aim at, but the ideal of a nuclear family is often upset by the realities of everyday life.

There are lifestyles I want nothing to do with...but that does not mean they do not impact on my life. I have no desire to live a homosexual lifestyle, or have a child out of wedlock, or divorce, or be a drug addict, or be a pedophile, or any of a number of "unwise" lifestyle choices. Yet, I cannot dismiss the impact of these things on my life either. I have known homosexual people that were otherwise decent people, all things considered. I have known homosexual people that weren't worth giving the time of day. I have grown up with kids born out of wedlock, and they go on to live lives like everybody else, if they are allowed to. Single motherhood seems to be the fashion nowadays, :rolleyes: ! Most of my friends have married and divorced and remarried several times by now (in their mid-40's). Had I not had a good swift kick in the pants at an opportune moment, I might be a drug addict now (or worse, have already died by overdose!). Pedophiles can be forgiven, if they are willing to remedy their ways.

People make unwise choices all the time. It happens. It is called "life." We can choose how we will direct our own lives, but others must learn for themselves.

I never learned a thing from anybody pointing a finger at me and yelling how bad I was. I have learned many things from people who accepted me as I was and pointing out, lovingly, how I was hurting myself by my choices.

My two cents.
 
Yes, back in the day when we kept homosexuals in the closet and pretended they didn't exist.

Yes, back in the day there were a tremendous number of premature babies...only 6-7 months term but bouncing 7-9 pounders...amazing.

Yes, back in the days of wine and roses...

I'm currently reading Chesapeake... a fictional story of course, but Michener is pretty good about creating situations that would have applied....lets see, this hero he was Catholic but publicly claimed Protestant so he could work and not be persecuted...and then took one woman as a wife, no priest around or rev so they just lived for a couple years and had a kid...then his Dad sent over a bride so sionara to the first, and took on the second...oh and 15 years later a Priest happened by the Island so he married them....back in the day... 1600's

I didn't have sex with my wife before we were married, she was my girlfriend then...back in the day....

It would be lovely if back in the day...it was as we imagine it was...back in the day...

there is a reason all this stuff is talked about in the bible....because it was a problem....back in that day
 
I never learned a thing from anybody pointing a finger at me and yelling how bad I was. I have learned many things from people who accepted me as I was and pointing out, lovingly, how I was hurting myself by my choices.
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Who is pointing a finger and who is yelling?

Yes homosexuals were in the closet because they knew and everyone else knew it was wrong. Just because they dont do that today doesnt make it automatically "right" sin is sin. Sin is the same as it was when it was first committed as it is now..

People dont openly declare they have a drug addiction or a porn addiction or are pedophiles.. people also dont shout to the world that they just murdered someone or are envying their neighbor.. Society is desensitizing us to the law we have on our hearts on issues of immoral sexuality.. Im not just speaking of homosexuality.. Im speaking of all of it. Everyone has this idea that we are intolerant and bigots. We are just as tempted as the rest of the world..we deal with the same enemies but we understand who and what our enemy is.

We have three enemies:

Satan
The World
Our own flesh

I believe the bible when it says to resist the devil and he will flee
I believe the bible when it says to cast off things of the flesh
I believe the bible when it says you cannot serve the world and Jesus Christ both.

Im not hating on them Im praying for their salvation. The flesh is a bondage worse than any chain ever made.. it will pull you straight down into the pits of hell literally and figuratively.

my 2cents
 
bananabrain said:
didn't jesus say something like "render unto caesar what is caesar's, but render unto G!D what is G!D's"? i am saying that the putative sanctioning or punishment of homosexuality is not a matter for human action, but for G!D, insofar as it is no skin off my behind what someone else does in their bedroom.
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Not our judgement, but our spreading of the gospel, because God uses men through the holy spirit to build his kingdom. God is holy and God is love, therefore, we are to love one another. If we love others like God loves us, then we will want to spread the good news that salvation is in his Holy Son. But like as he which called you is holy, be yourselves also holy in all manner of living, because it is written ye shall be holy for I am holy.
 
I see the question being asked as many Jews are reading the same texts, wrote the texts that are quoted and disagree with the interpretations.

FS you say others say you are intolerant, but isn't it true? Not trying to raise hackles here, but I don't believe you believe being intolerant of sin as being wrong. I think you see being intolerant of what you see as sin as being right, so why should you be upset about being labeled intolerant?

You have your beliefs, I have mine, everyone else has theirs, we don't agree.
 
wil said:
I see the question being asked as many Jews are reading the same texts, wrote the texts that are quoted and disagree with the interpretations.
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BTW, There's plenty in the NT, too.
 
I'm tired of homosexuals and their "lifestyle." Because I'm an American, and a patriot, I have to go to bat for anyone who is being treated unequally under the law. That's my civic obligation as a citizen. I really wish that we would just bite the bullet and level the playing field, then I could go on my merry way and not give homosexuality another thought. But some people seem to think that their moral values should be imposed on us all. They can't mind their own business, but feel compelled to force their way, their scriptural understanding, their religious values on the rest of us. So I've got to go to bat for the gays. Man, am I tired of that.

But, I have cause for hope. It's possible that the religious right has destroyed it's credibility by aligning itself politically with the Bush misadministration. I think they've blown their wad. So maybe, just maybe we can get back to evolving into the secularist society the founders had in mind.
 
ROFL, Sunny C.! I needed a good belly laugh for the evening!

And, you make many good points along the way. I like your style.

Thanks for the laugh! ;) :p :D

~andrew
 
Dearest FaithfulServant!

Faithfulservant said:
Who is pointing a finger and who is yelling?
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I am not accusing with my statement, please don't take it personally.

Faithfulservant said:
Yes homosexuals were in the closet because they knew and everyone else knew it was wrong. Just because they dont do that today doesnt make it automatically "right" sin is sin. Sin is the same as it was when it was first committed as it is now..

People dont openly declare they have a drug addiction or a porn addiction or are pedophiles.. people also dont shout to the world that they just murdered someone or are envying their neighbor.. Society is desensitizing us to the law we have on our hearts on issues of immoral sexuality.. Im not just speaking of homosexuality.. Im speaking of all of it. Everyone has this idea that we are intolerant and bigots. We are just as tempted as the rest of the world..we deal with the same enemies but we understand who and what our enemy is.

We have three enemies:

Satan
The World
Our own flesh

I believe the bible when it says to resist the devil and he will flee
I believe the bible when it says to cast off things of the flesh
I believe the bible when it says you cannot serve the world and Jesus Christ both.

Im not hating on them Im praying for their salvation. The flesh is a bondage worse than any chain ever made.. it will pull you straight down into the pits of hell literally and figuratively.

my 2cents
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Can you see?, you and I are saying the same thing in different words.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

The differences between us are in how to go about it. ;)
 
wil said:
I see the question being asked as many Jews are reading the same texts, wrote the texts that are quoted and disagree with the interpretations.

FS you say others say you are intolerant, but isn't it true? Not trying to raise hackles here, but I don't believe you believe being intolerant of sin as being wrong. I think you see being intolerant of what you see as sin as being right, so why should you be upset about being labeled intolerant?

You have your beliefs, I have mine, everyone else has theirs, we don't agree.
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Im NOT intolerant of the person. I am intolerant of the sin. Thank you for helping me see that I need to clarify that. Jesus hung out with the thieves and liars..

I wish you all could have known me before.. Ive been telling you how wretched I was in my sin.. I WAS WRETCHED! I was immoral I slept with people of the same sex. I dont know how to get you to understand that I am not judging the person anymore than I could judge myself. I AM that person. But Jesus loved me and forgave me and oh sweet Lord he changed me. I am not the same person I was. He is so awesome and so merciful and He saved me from myself.

Look at my avatar and replace the guy with a girl and thats me.. I am forgiven.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Im NOT intolerant of the person. I am intolerant of the sin. Thank you for helping me see that I need to clarify that.
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It's alright FS. Most people understand quite clearly what you are expressing.

Those that don't, probably won't, ever.

Trying to defend against such, is an exercise in futility.

v/r

Joshua
 
Quahom1 said:
It's alright FS. Most people understand quite clearly what you are expressing.

Those that don't, probably won't, ever.

Trying to defend against such, is an exercise in futility.

v/r

Joshua
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So , are you saying that homosexuality, which is very well understood by everyone actually working in the human psychological and sexual sciences that homosexuality is a naturally-occuring and basically unalterable orientation, is a sin and immoral, as FAITHFUL SERVANT is saying.

And if you say yes, because your religion says so, then defending against you and your likes, would be an exercise in futility.
 
niranjan said:
So , are you saying that homosexuality, which is very well understood by everyone actually working in the human psychological and sexual sciences that homosexuality is a naturally-occuring and basically unalterable orientation, is a sin and immoral, as FAITHFUL SERVANT is saying.

And if you say yes, because your religion says so, then defending against you and your likes, would be an exercise in futility.
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Actually, if you want a common sense explanation, I have one of them too. See, the purpose of sex in nature is to propogate the species. Hence a zygote must meet with an egg, inorder for said species to continue. The "pleasure" the species might derive is nature's way to insure that life will continue. However, for same sex species to engage in sexual activities with each other is as far as nature is concerned, a waste of energy, and the death of a pair of genomes' branches in the tree of life. In short, it detracts from the diversity of the species, and could eventually lead to said species' extinction.

That is my take. Thanks for asking.;)

v/r

Joshua

edit: oh, and God said it's an abomination (dismal failure). Seems to me God and science/nature are saying the same thing. It doesn't work for the purpose it was intended for.
 
Quahom1 said:
Actually, if you want a common sense explanation, I have one of them too. See, the purpose of sex in nature is to propogate the species. Hence a zygote must meet with an egg, inorder for said species to continue. The "pleasure" the species might derive is nature's way to insure that life will continue. However, for same sex species to engage in sexual activities with each other is as far as nature is concerned, a waste of energy, and the death of a pair of genomes' branches in the tree of life. In short, it detracts from the diversity of the species, and could eventually lead to said species' extinction.

That is my take. Thanks for asking.;)

v/r

Joshua

edit: oh, and God said it's an abomination (dismal failure). Seems to me God and science/nature are saying the same thing. It doesn't work for the purpose it was intended for.
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And how come God made the poor homosexuals this way , which is embedded in their nature, instead of making them purely heterosexual. It is not enough to preach, He should have made them biologically perfect as you put it.

I think God is to blame for this. Speak of double standards.
 
niranjan said:
And how come God made the poor homosexuals this way , which is embedded in their nature, instead of making them purely heterosexual. It is not enough to preach, He should have made them biologically perfect as you put it.

I think God is to blame for this. Speak of double standards.
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God made the rutting instinct in all animals. Man, He made sure, knows better than to arbitrarily plug anything that moves. And for those who ain't quick enough to ken that, He gave us some rules.

Animals are animals. They are without sin (they never rebelled against God). Man knows right from wrong. He knows what works and what doesn't. I see no double standard from God. From man however...
 
Quahom1 said:
God made the rutting instinct in all animals. Man, He made sure, knows better than to arbitrarily plug anything that moves.
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Sorry about that pal, but I think God made a manufacturing mistake. It was once thought that all men and women were heterosexual by nature, and that it was only their wilful, evil nature that caused them to take up homosexual practices. But now , as I stated before in my previous post, it has been determined to be a natural-occuring and unalterable orientation by science.

He himself created homosexuals, and now He is preaching that homosexuals are bad news. Where is the justice in this !!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
niranjan said:
Sorry about that pal, but I think God made a manufacturing mistake. It was once thought that all men and women were heterosexual by nature, and that it was only their wilful, evil nature that caused them to take up homosexual practices. But now , as I stated before in my previous post, it has been determined to be a natural-occuring and unalterable orientation by science.

He himself created homosexuals, and now He is preaching that homosexuals are bad news. Where is the justice in this !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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There is no conclusive proof that humans are made specifically homosexual. There are errors in DNA that occur, however that isn't God's fault. Most of the faults of DNA can be attributed to exterior anomolies (mostly as of late), caused by....oh my....man.

Biblically speaking, man's perfection ended with his expulsion from the garden. It was no surprise, that bad things would happen. God told us they would. Think about it. What need man have for God, if he was still perfect? There would be no reason to turn back to God...unless man had need to lean on God.

Smart God, I think.

v/r

Joshua
 
The literalists and fundamentalists of the past, pointing to scripture, old and new testament and screaming G-d and Jesus say it is ok was the methods used against reasonable people who opposed slavery for many hundreds of years.

It is now clear today that reasonable people grow and learn and now look back upon those centuries of slavery as a disgrace and cannot believe that anyone used scripture to uphold the owning of humans as property.

Many other archaic notions found in the bible, stoning of adulterers and such have gone by the wayside for non-barbaric peoples.

What is not clear is when this same thing will happen to our view of homosexuals....but it is clear it will happen. And some day our great great great grandchildrend will read about the homophobia and discussions like this and won't be able to believe how backward a people we were.

Exactly like we perceive that slavery in was an abomination...and not biblicly ordained...well some of us anyway.
 
wil said:
The literalists and fundamentalists of the past, pointing to scripture, old and new testament and screaming G-d and Jesus say it is ok was the methods used against reasonable people who opposed slavery for many hundreds of years.

It is now clear today that reasonable people grow and learn and now look back upon those centuries of slavery as a disgrace and cannot believe that anyone used scripture to uphold the owning of humans as property.

Many other archaic notions found in the bible, stoning of adulterers and such have gone by the wayside for non-barbaric peoples.

What is not clear is when this same thing will happen to our view of homosexuals....but it is clear it will happen. And some day our great great great grandchildrend will read about the homophobia and discussions like this and won't be able to believe how backward a people we were.

Exactly like we perceive that slavery in was an abomination...and not biblicly ordained...well some of us anyway.
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I doubt it wil. Unless religion (rules) disappear all together. Then anarchy is in effect, and nothing lasts long in anarchy. Sooner or later someone with strength makes up rules the rest will comply with.

However, the vision you see is an end to life as we know it. So if perchance one of us were to be held in stasis for 1000 years, what we would see when we came out would be so alien (even from your vision), we wouldn't know what to do, or think.
 
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