Why We Need a Savior

[lunamoth]

How do you know this? Is this interpretation recorded somewhere? By whom?

Yes, actually. They are recorded by Historians and church fathers. You can find out this basic stuff online. Do a google search and see what the early saints believed from the 1st century to now. Compare and contrast what we differ on, as far as nonessential issues.

So you think that your interpretation is exactly the same, in the essentials, as the first century Christians. But you don't have a reference for this aside from the same ones used to establish the authority of the Catholic Church. Online I can find a lot of things. Is the internet an authority for your beliefs?

The Catholic Church, which Mother Teresa was part of, is founded by the disciples, apostles, and early church. If you think they are wrong about something...when did they go wrong? The church is guided by the Holy Spirit, and the apostles were appointed to lead the faithful. The Catholic Church is based on this foundation...if they went wrong, when, where, how? And, who, at that time, picked up the pieces to record the "true" understanding that you now have?

Actually, no. There are a lot of things to consider here, too much to write. But again, I'll say this: The Catholics went wrong went they left the essentials of the faith and adhered to pagan Roman customs, and other things. This went on for a very long time until the Reformation came about in the mid-ages. Prior to that, however, there were people who contended for the truth, like the anabaptist, and others.

Christ assued the church that they would be guided by the Holy Spirit. You have not shown me any evidence for essentials of the faith for first century Christians that are not part of Catholic belief today. At what date in history did the Holy Spirit stop guiding the Catholic Church? 100 CE? What happened in the meanwhile...no one was saved from 100 CE until the Reformation?

The Catholic Church teaches repentence and faith (of course!) too. So, why wouldn't she be saved?

Alot of people say that. The JWs, for instance, teach that as well. But, only God knows who has truely repented and truely trust in Jesus (because He gives those gifts to those He saves). I gave you an example of what it means to trust Christ.

Yes, so why are they not saved?

I'm still not understanding what about Mother Teresa's beliefs would keep her from being saved. See the quote provided by InLove. She had faith in God, gave all the glory to God, lived for God.

The diffrence is not in what she said, but what she believed and lived. Sure, she said she did work to God's glory and believed in Christ. But, was her faith in the Christ of the Bible? Was it the Christ who said that without me, no one will be saved? It couldnt be, since mother Teresa believed that a person didnt need Christ alone to be saved. Make sense yet? This Christian road is very hard and narrow. Only few find it.

No, this does not make sense.

I guess I need to understand where in the Bible, which was cannonized by the Catholic Church well after the first century, it says that by faith and faith only we are saved.

How you know that this was a belief of the earliest Christian community (records, names, dates, etc.).

Why you think that accepting the rest of Catholic tradition somehow disqualifies someone from salvation.


I'm sorry to say this Silas, but it seems to me that what you do here is to take the glory for yourself. You say you are 100% certain that you are right and everyone else is wrong...those are mightly long odds. As far as I can tell, the only basis for your belief is your own interpretation of the Bible, perhaps some special feelings you have, a couple of radio talk show guys and some propaganda against the Catholic Church that has no chance of standing up logically. This is the religion of Silas, or Silas and Cameron perhaps. Which is fine for you, but I'm not sure why anyone else should trust it, especially when some of it conflicts with the grace released into the world by Christ's work on the cross, and God's unconditional love for us all.

 

[wil]

yeah. I'd like proof that I judged people and said they were going to hell. I want the link so I can see it in context.

The Bible says that we will know Christians by their fruits and also by their correct doctrine. I called a spade a spade, bro.

So this is show me proof, I don't judge or condemn...and then, "yeah so what??" Do we judge what one writes in their posts and responses as fruit my brother?

 

[-James-]

The Bible says that we will know Christians by their fruits and also by their correct doctrine. I called a spade a spade, bro.

Fair enough, Silas But, there is no entire doctrine that's correct/complete, and that's my point. We all have bit and pieces of the whole but the whole remains hidden. That is one of the reasons why we shouldn't judge others based entirely on what doctrine they adhere to.

You are free to think, feel, act, react any which way you choose, man. You might be correct, and I certainly won't deny that possibility, but if we are to judge by fruits, or by the spirit of truth, then I would have to disagree with your sentiment on both Joel and M Theresa.



26. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.


10. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11. Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?


We all fall short of this because we all judge to a point. It just isn't in our best interest to do so, and I'll have to make peace with my judgement of you. It was not my place to call you out, but I did, man. I appologize.. . ..


James

 

[Silas]

Fair enough, Silas But, there is no entire doctrine that's correct/complete, and that's my point.

Thats not true, bro. If it were, then we wouldnt have core essentials of the faith. If your solteriology isnt right, you cannot have fellowship with the saints. Thats scripture, right?

You are free to think, feel, act, react any which way you choose, man. You might be correct, and I certainly won't deny that possibility, but if we are to judge by fruits, or by the spirit of truth, then I would have to disagree with your sentiment on both Joel and M Theresa.

Do you believe you can be considered Christian if you hold that Mary is a mediator between God and man? Can you be called a Christian if you believe the gospel is therapy, rather than God's power to make you like Jesus? Do you believe that you can be a Christian if you hold that Jew and Muslim and Buddist and all other good religions all pray to the same God?

We all fall short of this because we all judge to a point.

We all judge. Judging isnt wrong in scripture. What is wrong is when we take a possition that God does not give us. We are called to make "righteous judgments." We are told to say the truth, even if it is hard to hear. We arent told to judge as if we are ourselves gods.

It just isn't in our best interest to do so, and I'll have to make peace with my judgement of you. It was not my place to call you out, but I did, man. I appologize.. . ..

Dont worry about it!

 

[-James-]

Fair enough, Silas But, there is no entire doctrine that's correct/complete, and that's my point.

Thats not true, bro. If it were, then we wouldnt have core essentials of the faith. If your solteriology isnt right, you cannot have fellowship with the saints. Thats scripture, right?

The core essential of the faith is Christ's Spirit, or "Love", bro. That was the word, that was/is the message, that was Christ's command, and that is the core essence of God.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10

8. Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;
10. but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

Are you perfect, yet? Am I perfect yet? No! We are not, but when the kingdom has been established, that is our hope.

You are free to think, feel, act, react any which way you choose, man. You might be correct, and I certainly won't deny that possibility, but if we are to judge by fruits, or by the spirit of truth, then I would have to disagree with your sentiment on both Joel and M Theresa.

Do you believe you can be considered Christian if you hold that Mary is a mediator between God and man? Can you be called a Christian if you believe the gospel is therapy, rather than God's power to make you like Jesus? Do you believe that you can be a Christian if you hold that Jew and Muslim and Buddist and all other good religions all pray to the same God?

The fruits of God's spirit are indeed therapy for the soul. I don't think intellectual knowledge damns nor saves, as it is all "imperfect". It is what's in the heart that God is concerned with. To be considered Christian, is to follow the ways of Christ, and many people fall into this catagory in heart. Not just the Calvanist, or the Baptists, or the Methodists, etc.

We all fall short of this because we all judge to a point.

We all judge. Judging isnt wrong in scripture. What is wrong is when we take a possition that God does not give us. We are called to make "righteous judgments." We are told to say the truth, even if it is hard to hear. We arent told to judge as if we are ourselves gods.

I might suggest that when we judge out of love it is fruitful, but judging out of self righteousness, unrighteous. Niether is pleasant for the judged, nor judge when in the spirit of God.

It just isn't in our best interest to do so, and I'll have to make peace with my judgement of you. It was not my place to call you out, but I did, man. I appologize.. . ..

Dont worry about it!

Thank you


Much Love,


James

 

[lunamoth]

The core essential of the faith is Christ's Spirit, or "Love", bro. That was the word, that was/is the message, that was Christ's command, and that is the core essence of God.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10

8. Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;
10. but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

Are you perfect, yet? Am I perfect yet? No! We are not, but when the kingdom has been established, that is our hope.



The fruits of God's spirit are indeed therapy for the soul. I don't think intellectual knowledge damns nor saves, as it is all "imperfect". It is what's in the heart that God is concerned with. To be considered Christian, is to follow the ways of Christ, and many people fall into this catagory in heart. Not just the Calvanist, or the Baptists, or the Methodists, etc.



I might suggest that when we judge out of love it is fruitful, but judging out of self righteousness, unrighteous. Niether is pleasant for the judged, nor judge when in the spirit of God.




Thank you


Much Love,


James

Good post James. Well said.

luna

 

[iBrian]

yeah. I'd like proof that I judged people and said they were going to hell. I want the link so I can see it in context.

Try your earlier responses to myself on this thread.

You also suggested the same of Mother Teresa.

 

[Snoopy]

You also suggested the same of Mother Teresa.

That Gandhi was a dodgy character too.

s.

 

[Snoopy]

arse

Hi,

Can we use words like that then?

s.

 

[Star Sarellia]

It is my opinion that Mother Teresa was an absolutely extraordinary woman. She was brought up Catholic. Her father was murdered when she was only 7 years old and despite not even knowing the language of English very well, the spirit of God moved within her and she joined a group of Irish Nuns called the Sisters of Loreto at the young age of 18.

She received permission to start a congregation, which became the Missionaries of Charity. This started with only 13 nuns and now has grown to have over 4000. These dedicated women ran hospices, and charity centers worldwide.. caring for orhpans, refugees, the blind, the diseased, disabled, aged, alcoholics, the poor and homeless, and victims of floods, epidemics, and famine.

I could go on and on about Mother Teresa but her works are well documented and these along with her genuine charity and love are certainly not in any despute.

Lets see what scripture says about such a woman?

Pay all your debts, except the debt of love for others. You can never finish paying that! If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill all the requirements of God's law. For the commandments against adultery and murder and stealing and coveting -- and any other commandment -- are all summed up in this one commandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to anyone, so love satisfies all of God's requirements.
Romans 13:8-10

"Teacher, what must I do to receive eternal life?"
Jesus replied, "What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?"
The man answered, "`You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.' And, `Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
"Right!" Jesus told him. "Do this and you will live!"
Luke 10:25-28

Seems to me, that Mother Teresa fullfilled the law as spoken by Jesus. Where faith is concerned I don't believe any man has the right to Judge anothers trust and faith in God. That is between them and God.

I wouldn't dare compare my faith to that of Mother Teresas..

 

[Silas]

James

The core essential of the faith is Christ's Spirit, or "Love", bro. That was the word, that was/is the message, that was Christ's command, and that is the core essence of God.

No, that isnt the core essentials of the faith. Every religion practices love, dont they? Are they Christian? Do you say you are a Christian because you love people, or is it more to your faith?

 

[Silas]

How come so many non Christians qoute so much of the scriptures you dont believe?

 

[-James-]

James

The core essential of the faith is Christ's Spirit, or "Love", bro. That was the word, that was/is the message, that was Christ's command, and that is the core essence of God.

No, that isnt the core essentials of the faith. Every religion practices love, dont they? Are they Christian? Do you say you are a Christian because you love people, or is it more to your faith?

Christ was the way maker, he built/is a bridge that all men can travel. Intellectual knowledge of doctrine will pass away in time, but Christ's "Spirit", which is love will always remain. All will declare him Lord, as he is not willing for any to perish. "Love" IS Christ by my estimation. Sure, this view is certainly not shared by many of my Christian counterparts, and I won't push it. A person must come to see it for themseves, or experience it for themselves. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

Love IS the core element of the Christ mans way, bro. When you see it, you will understand. Most get lost in doctrine, or get lost in "religion" and few find that pearl of great price in this life.

How come so many non Christians qoute so much of the scriptures you dont believe?

What do you mean?


Love,


James

 

[wil]

No, that isnt the core essentials of the faith. Every religion practices love, dont they? Are they Christian? Do you say you are a Christian because you love people, or is it more to your faith?

I posted scripture for you identifying going from faith to love...didja miss it?

How come so many non Christians qoute so much of the scriptures you dont believe?

I thought you indicated you did not judge folks or decide who they were, Christian or non Christian, going to hell or not...that that was upto G-d.

 

[Silas]

James

Christ was the way maker, he built/is a bridge that all men can travel. Intellectual knowledge of doctrine will pass away in time, but Christ's "Spirit", which is love will always remain. All will declare him Lord, as he is not willing for any to perish. "Love" IS Christ by my estimation. Sure, this view is certainly not shared by many of my Christian counterparts, and I won't push it. A person must come to see it for themseves, or experience it for themselves. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Love IS the core element of the Christ mans way, bro. When you see it, you will understand. Most get lost in doctrine, or get lost in "religion" and few find that pearl of great price in this life.

I once had a conversation with a friend of mine about extremes. I remember her saying something that I thought was so right on. She said that within Christanity there are generally three types of people: Those on the far right, those on the far left, and those that have a balanced middle. She mentioned that those on the far right usually qoute Jesus and his many "love" passages. The people on the far left usually qoute the Apostle Paul and are heavy into doctrine. The people in the middle however, now they were the ones we would call Christians, for they've found the truth within both things, namly doctrine and application of doctrine, e.g., producing fruits of the spirit (love, peace, patients, kindness, etc). In which of these three description would you place yourself? Are you only seeing love? Are you only seeing doctrine? Or, are you seeing both as equally important?

What do you mean?


I find it amazing that so many nonChristians would qoute from the very Bible they do not believe. Why is that?

 

[Silas]

I posted scripture for you identifying going from faith to love...didja miss it?I thought you indicated you did not judge folks or decide who they were, Christian or non Christian, going to hell or not...that that was upto G-d.

I'm not judging. I'm just saying the truth. Most people here dont believe that Jesus is God, that He died for sins of wicked people, that He is the only way to God, that God is One in essence yet existing as three seperate persons, that by Grace through faith in Christ alone, a man can be forgiven of his sins, that there is a litteral hell, etc. That being the case, why in the world would I call them Christian? By the way, I didnt read what you wrote because I'm not sure if you understand the scriptures (I could be wrong). What was the point you were trying to make?

 

[wil]

By the way, I didnt read what you wrote because I'm not sure if you understand the scriptures (I could be wrong). What was the point you were trying to make?

You ask questions, folks answer you don't read, you simply ask more questions, and don't make judgements, you tell the truth, but you could be wrong...

 

[Star Sarellia]

Silas

I have to finally say, (as I about to leave this forum, never to return) that I feel it is pointless discussing anything with you. If you are incapable of seeing where you have no intention at all in sharing or discussing your ideas even from a solely Fundamental Christian perspective.. I do have to wonder what you are doing on a forum that clearly is intended to do just that.

Have you in any way convinced me that your *path* is better than mine?

No.

In fact, you have only convinced me.. that the very last thing I would ever want to be.. is a so called "Christian" beside you. I would never wish to be associated with someone who is so quick and flippant to judge another.

I find it amazing that so many nonChristians would qoute from the very Bible they do not believe. Why is that?

Why is it amazing...? It is not great secret that Islamic and Jewish people both have books from the bible in their faith.. that the Christian originated from the foundation of Judaism.

She mentioned that those on the far right usually qoute Jesus and his many "love" passages. The people on the far left usually qoute the Apostle Paul and are heavy into doctrine. The people in the middle however, now they were the ones we would call Christians, for they've found the truth within both things, namly doctrine and application of doctrine, e.g., producing fruits of the spirit (love, peace, patients, kindness, etc).

I completely disagree with her.. You are going to pull out anything you can aren't you.. If you can't make people see YOUR way.. you will deliberately tick people off and then no doubt claim some scripture of defeating enemies or the like in my passing.. Well.. I am not going to play your game.. and I say now.. that I leave as it is God's direction to me that I do so.

Finally I would add.. my opinion on your fundamental faith.. (which you won't bother to read)

Fundamentalism is the attempt to impose a single truth on a plural world. Fundamentalists are adamantly opposed to many of the most positive values of modern society. Fundamentalists have no time for democracy, pluralism, religious tolerance, peacekeeping, free speech or the separation of church and state. Christian fundamentalists reject the discoveries of biology and physics, about the origins of life and insist that the book of Genesis is scientifically sound in every detail. I love the bible. I have read it and learned from it. I believe that it is God's word and that God continues to speak to us through it. But I do not believe, as fundamentalist do, that every verse in the bible is directed to us in the 21st. century as a law to be read literally and obeyed without question. I believe that the Holy Spirit has watched over and guided the writing and translation of those 66 books to guarantee that over the centuries they remain the Christian's guide to faith and practice. But I do not believe that God ever intended that the bible be a trustworthy guide to biology, geology, psychiatry or astronomy. Fundamentalist do believe it and in the process refuse to be inspired and informed by what humanity has learned over past millennia about the mystery and wonder of God's creation. When they call the bible inerrant, they mean it contains the whole truth about everything and in doing that they refuse to hear the Spirit of Truth, God's Spirit, the Spirit Jesus promised would come to comfort us and to "teach you all things" (John 14:26).
Fundamentalist Christians are those whose religious security is rooted in a literal bible and they do not want that security disturbed. Fundamentalists are not happy when facts challenge their biblical understanding or when nuances in the text are introduced or when they are forced to deal with either contradiction or changing insights, for biblical literalists there is always an enemy to be defeated in mortal combat.
Fundamentalism is orthodoxy gone cultic. The mentality of fundamentalism is dominated by ideological thinking. Ideological thinking is rigid, intolerant and doctrinaire, it sees principals everywhere and all principals come in clear tones of black and white, it exempts itself from the limits that original sin places on history, it wages holy wars without acknowledging the elements of pride and personal interest that prompt the call to battle, it creates new evils while trying to correct old ones. The religion of fundamentalism is idolatry!

- Kale

 

[-James-]

James

Christ was the way maker, he built/is a bridge that all men can travel. Intellectual knowledge of doctrine will pass away in time, but Christ's "Spirit", which is love will always remain. All will declare him Lord, as he is not willing for any to perish. "Love" IS Christ by my estimation. Sure, this view is certainly not shared by many of my Christian counterparts, and I won't push it. A person must come to see it for themseves, or experience it for themselves. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Love IS the core element of the Christ mans way, bro. When you see it, you will understand. Most get lost in doctrine, or get lost in "religion" and few find that pearl of great price in this life.

I once had a conversation with a friend of mine about extremes. I remember her saying something that I thought was so right on. She said that within Christanity there are generally three types of people: Those on the far right, those on the far left, and those that have a balanced middle. She mentioned that those on the far right usually qoute Jesus and his many "love" passages. The people on the far left usually qoute the Apostle Paul and are heavy into doctrine. The people in the middle however, now they were the ones we would call Christians, for they've found the truth within both things, namly doctrine and application of doctrine, e.g., producing fruits of the spirit (love, peace, patients, kindness, etc). In which of these three description would you place yourself? Are you only seeing love? Are you only seeing doctrine? Or, are you seeing both as equally important?

What do you mean?


I find it amazing that so many nonChristians would qoute from the very Bible they do not believe. Why is that?

There is another type who see Love in all of Christs teachings. Btw, the Bible is a very influcial book, Silas. Why would you be offended by those who choose to quote scripture regardless of thier beliefs?


much love,


James

 

[Silas]

There is another type who see Love in all of Christs teachings. Btw, the Bible is a very influcial book, Silas. Why would you be offended by those who choose to quote scripture regardless of thier beliefs?


much love,


James

Because people choose to disobey His commandments and still convientally qoute his words when they are being witnessed to. I find it condesending, actually. James, do you believe that Muslims and Buddist can go to Heaven without Jesus?