Why We Need a Savior

[Silas]

That's NOT what Jesus said, Silas.

John 13:34-35

34. A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.


We have differing views as to what being born again actually means, I think. You tend to think it happens on an intellectual level, a simple belief, but that's not what it means to be born again. I can tell you with all certaintly that I have been born again, Silas. Why must you judge my heart like you do, and doubt what has been accomplished in me by God? Why do you doubt the power of God's spirit to heal all? I haven't the faith of a mustard seed, but my faith is strong, Silas. We are born again by God's "spirit"; without God's spirit all our deeds are futile, and worthless, but with God's spirit we can do all things. This is what being born again is about, being "Changed" in heart, spirit, and soul through the Grace that god's spirit lends to us.






No, my own heart is a gutter where no good thing resides, but my heart in God accomplishes me. My Christ encounter came when I emraced HIM, and not a simple belief that he does what he does. It happens on a very personal level, and when it does, you know that you know that you know that he saves. He is Love, silas there is no getting around it.




Do you understand what Christ taught? You understand the calvanist doctrine, but you do not understand Christ, but you can, if and when you open yourself to him and his ways.




Yes, in his 'given' name or mere intellectual knowledge of the 'man', but not the name he came in, nor the spirit that was made manifest in him. By which measure you meet will be measured back unto you, silas. You seek to condemn for condemnation is in your heart. You judge my heart for judgment is upon your own, but Christ came not to condemn the world but to save the world through him. He's available, the door is open, he's calling.. . ..can you hear him? Let him Love you, allow him to embrace you; let go of the sinful man and be made new in his Spirit.





That is where you're mistaken, Christ IS my faith, my hope, and in him my heart resides.




How can you speak of what you seem to not understand? If you understood, you would not be so quick to judge my own seat in Christ. I tell you, Christ lives, he is ever present, unchanging, and forever merciful unto his sheep; he is calling for you to "know" him, not to just "believe" with you mind.


I love you man, but do not judge my heart, or seat in Christ again.


James (A born again Christian)

OK James, I just two statements to make, one a comment and the other a question.

1. I dont believe being born agian is something that happens interlectually, but instead something that God does. It can be summed up in Ezk 36:25-27.

2. How can you say that people of different religions can get to Heaven without Jesus and its against what Christ, the Bible, and Chruch history teaches?

 

[-James-]

It's not against what Christ teaches, or what the Bible teaches if you look with an open heart and eyes, but yes church history has made the way hidden in doctrine and dogma, and ideology and even a perversion of Christ our savior himself.

Do you think that Christ would have done what he did, go through what he went through, or that God his father would have sent him to do what he did just to be limited to a single man made "system" of belief? It is not the system that saves, but the very spirit of God himself that does the work.

You do not have to agree with my sentiments, silas. You may choose whatever road you wish to travel, but Christ died for the sins of the world, not just the elect, or for those who know his name.

My 2c's

Love ya, bro


James

 

[Silas]

James

It's not against what Christ teaches, or what the Bible teaches if you look with an open heart and eyes, but yes church history has made the way hidden in doctrine and dogma, and ideology and even a perversion of Christ our savior himself.

OK. How do you explain the following scriptures:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

"Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." Mat 10:39

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," - 1Tim 2:5

"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." - 2Cor 4:4



Do you think that Christ would have done what he did, go through what he went through, or that God his father would have sent him to do what he did just to be limited to a single man made "system" of belief? It is not the system that saves, but the very spirit of God himself that does the work.

It was God's will to send His Son into the world to save sinners and He is satisfied. "Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities" (Isa 53:10-11). God is satisify because He saved all those He intends to save (John 17:2).

You do not have to agree with my sentiments, silas. You may choose whatever road you wish to travel, but Christ died for the sins of the world, not just the elect, or for those who know his name.

You dont believe that. I'll show you. If Christ died for the world, i.e., everyone indivisually, why are there people in Hell?

 

[-James-]

OK. How do you explain the following scriptures:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

"Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." Mat 10:39

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," - 1Tim 2:5

"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." - 2Cor 4:4

The first is figurative in that we must go through him inasmuch as we go through the spirit of him. "Love"

The second the same, those who keep the ways of the natural man will lose their life that is in Christ, or not find it. Those who lose the old man will find the new in his spirit.

"In him was life, and that life was the light of men"

The third is talking ablout the reality of Christ. There is but one God, and one mediator "Bridge" that connects man with God, and that is Christ Jesus. Christ was Gods spirit made manifest in bodily form, and he gave the entire world his life, teachings, and spirit for all to accept and embrace. He showed us Gods will, he gave to us commandments that are not to stand idle. His spirit is in the world, for the world to choose over the lusts of heart. He is, was, and will always be Love. This is what we accept, embrace, secure, and allow to mature within. It IS Christ!

The fourth is to say that we are the "gods" of the world, the fallen nature of man, the sinful lusts of heart, all that destroys and all that is an offence to God, in that we do not accept God in truth, faith, hope and Love. Instead, we walk in the ways of the world, and not in the ways of Christ. (Blind, deaf, and dead in our sins.)

We lean to our own understanding, and resist the "pure" gospel of Christ, which is all about God and his love for mankind. Jesus was the image of God, as he was Love in human body. His spirit is with us, he lives, and heals, and saves those who embrace him for who he was/is, and who follow his ways and trusts in them.

He is Love, silas. He is Spirit, he is real, and he comes to all men.

It was God's will to send His Son into the world to save sinners and He is satisfied. "Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities" (Isa 53:10-11). God is satisify because He saved all those He intends to save (John 17:2).

All the world was given unto Christ, silas. He is King of kings, and Lord of lords. He is the spirit, and power of God himself, bro. Does God not own all things? Same with Christ; all are subject to his rule be it through acceptance or resistance. Saved or unsaved, heaven or hell in this life and the next; Christ is King!

His wrath, and hell the same, is to live w/o his grace, mercy, and spirit, bro. A life with, or w/o his love. We choose, we accept, we embrace, and we allow his spirit to mature within when we cherish it with all our heart, mind, and soul. This is the good ground, and his seed is spread across the world.


James

 

[wil]

OK. How do you explain the following scriptures:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

Namaste Silas...last year VC provided us this:

"I am the Way the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me."

I Think it could be understood thus: "I embody the way, the truth and the life. No-one may approach God except by the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

There is a problem I think in attaching an everlasting promise to a mortal human. After all, Jesus as such is dead. His existence is one with God. His body is not floating around in space. So when he said "I am" I believe he was speaking more in terms of his eternal nature than in his identity as a human being.

However I think James did a fine job explaining his thought as to the nature of Christ, and the way he expects us to be.

I think we also are aware the alpha and omega, always was always will be...the decision as to salvation it appears may occur after life on this planet...I also believe there are others who have an understanding of Christ's nature without having read our books.

Whilst some complain us Liberal Christians mistranslate or ignore some scripture...tis obvious that some ignore all the scriptures relating to love and forgiveness as well. I do believe anytime we see Christ or G-d acting out in scripture...tis sign we need to look for deeper meaning, or try to understand the language of the day...and not simply use our current interpretations of evil and fear...

 

[Silas]

James

The first is figurative in that we must go through him inasmuch as we go through the spirit of him. "Love"

That's interesting! But, it does not go well with what the scripture is saying in context. In the five verses, Jesus is talking about believing in Him and His promises of Him coming back for us. In verse five, the question is asked "how can we know the way?" Jesus then responds, "I am the way." The Bible's defination of that verse and yours is at odds.

The second the same, those who keep the ways of the natural man will lose their life that is in Christ, or not find it. Those who lose the old man will find the new in his spirit.

I should have probably mentioned that you needed to read those verses in context? Again, your understanding of that verse is at odds with that of the Bible's. I'll let you try this one again. Read the scripture in context.

The third is talking ablout the reality of Christ. There is but one God, and one mediator "Bridge" that connects man with God, and that is Christ Jesus. Christ was Gods spirit made manifest in bodily form, and he gave the entire world his life, teachings, and spirit for all to accept and embrace. He showed us Gods will, he gave to us commandments that are not to stand idle. His spirit is in the world, for the world to choose over the lusts of heart. He is, was, and will always be Love. This is what we accept, embrace, secure, and allow to mature within. It IS Christ!

Hmm? I'll let this one stick only because I'm curioius. How could you say that Christ is the only bridge between God and man, and yet affirm that people of other religions could go to Heaven without Jesus?

The fourth is to say that we are the "gods" of the world, the fallen nature of man, the sinful lusts of heart, all that destroys and all that is an offence to God, in that we do not accept God in truth, faith, hope and Love. Instead, we walk in the ways of the world, and not in the ways of Christ. (Blind, deaf, and dead in our sins.)

So its not saying that Satan is blinding people from the truth that is Christ?

We lean to our own understanding, and resist the "pure" gospel of Christ, which is all about God and his love for mankind.

I read this and I want to laugh and cry. Laugh because its funny and cry because its very sad, and you acutally belive what you said. Dude, please note that the pure gospel isnt about us, but about God and His mercy. Do you suppose that you are really worth Christ' sufferings and agony?

He is Love, silas. He is Spirit, he is real, and he comes to all men.

You sound like Joel Olsteen and some sort of scary universalist to me. You seem to think God's love is liken to some sort of fickle emotion and that he is just so head over heals with people.

All the world was given unto Christ, silas. He is King of kings, and Lord of lords. He is the spirit, and power of God himself, bro. Does God not own all things? Same with Christ; all are subject to his rule be it through acceptance or resistance. Saved or unsaved, heaven or hell in this life and the next; Christ is King!

I agree. Everything was made by Him and for Him (John 1:3).

His wrath, and hell the same, is to live w/o his grace, mercy, and spirit, bro. A life with, or w/o his love.

Living without Christ is hellish, but it is not hell. Hell is the place where God's wrath is expressed and His justice is set out. All those who reject the truth will go there. Hey, you didnt answer my question. If Christ died for all, why are some in Hell?

 

[-James-]

When you are ready you will see, Silas. If not, you will miss the greatest gift of all. I know you want to defend your doctrine, as you feel threatend, or perhaps fearful that you might be wrong. Then again, perhaps you feel that you know the truth in its entirety through your intellect? The Bible says that all doctrines/knowledge are imperfect, so you take it from there.

I'm not bashing what you believe, nor would I. I am simply asking, suggesting, imploring, begging that you embrace the Love of God. Keep your doctrine of election, add to it Love and soon you will come to experience what I and others have experienced.

You want to laugh at my statements, but this is not a laughing matter, silas. Again you judge ,again you condemn because you believe in your heart that I am wrong about God's love for mankind. If he didn't love us, he would not have sent his son to be crushed. It was doubt that led Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge. She doubted that death would come, but it did and has been passed on throughout history. We are spiritualy dead beings before we open up to Christ, and believe in his word. His seed has been planted; it is up to you to decide what to do with it, bro. What is Satans # 1 tool to decieve? I already underlined it for you; it's a subtle thing but its power tragic. don't doubt God my friend, he loves you!


Btw, the context of the scripture fits the bill. And to your question about hell. It is because they resisted God's love. Don't fear hell, fear living life w/o ever allowing God to Love you. It takes time to mature, the seed must die (Change form) to become a tree. Have faith, and beleive, and understand that your hope is in Christ's Spirit, or "seed".


John 14

1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also



James

 

[Silas]

OK, James.

 

[lunamoth]

If Christ died for the world, i.e., everyone indivisually, why are there people in Hell? [/COLOR]

Hi Silas,

Christ's sacrifice was for the world, not for all of us individually but for all of us together. People are in hell because they choose to be, but the door to heaven, through Christ, is always open.

No one is saved until we all are.

Love,
luna

 

[Silas]

Hi Silas,

Christ's sacrifice was for the world, not for all of us individually but for all of us together. People are in hell because they choose to be, but the door to heaven, through Christ, is always open.

No one is saved until we all are.

Love,
luna

OK, lets try to work this out. Scripture says that Christ atoned for the world. Now, I believe the "world" is speaking of believers from every tribe, nation, and tounge only (Rev 5:9, etc). You believe Christ died for everybody. Scriptures say that Christ' death atoned for sin, and propetiated God in that Christ paid the price of sinners. Christ drained the cup of God's wrath as he took upon himself the sins of the world. We broke the law and Christ paid the fine. Now, if that is true (and scripture says it is true), why are people in Hell? You say that they are in hell because they dont beleive. Scriptures say that Christ died for all sin, even the sin of unbelief. I ask again: Why are there people in Hell? Does the Just and Righteous God of the universe require double payment; first to Christ who paid the sins of the world, and then to the person again?

 

[-James-]

What makes you think people are in a "literal" place called hell? The wages of sin is death, and we are dead in our skin until we have been born again. I liken hell to be that place of torment that existed in my inner man before Christ came and conqured it.

I'm not certain anyone who has passed away is being tormented day and night in hell at this moment, but I can sure see it in the now. Show me some scripture that tells us that our deceased loved ones are being tormented because they didn't find Christ in this life.

I'm sure you'll find something related, and I'll give my views when you do.


James

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Silas,

We have different understandings of Scripture Silas, I see that, and right now it looks to me like no amount of 'context' is going to change that. I would presume that you have Bible quotes to back up each of your statements below. I have found in these exchanges that when someone says "read it in context," what they really mean is "I disagree with your interpretation and my interpretation is right." But, if you are willing to find one quote for each statement that you think directly supports your interpretation, I will read the passage and try to understand how you come to your view.

I'll try to do that for a couple of the ones we agree on.

Scripture says that Christ atoned for the world....You believe Christ died for everybody.

I recall this passage:

20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

and also the Romans passage I already posted:

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' " [a]
12 So then, we will all give an account of ourselves to God.

I also think about the parables of the prodigal son, the one lost sheep, and especially the good Samaritan, which I think answers the question of "who is my brother?" It's also a good teaching on what it 'takes' to inherit eternal life.

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27 He answered, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' [c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' [d]"

28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii [e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

Now, I believe the "world" is speaking of believers from every tribe, nation, and tounge only (Rev 5:9, etc).

9 And they sang a new song, saying:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
members of every tribe and language and people and nation.

10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

I'm not sure how you get just "believers" from the above, but I will grant you that one certainly can't have a relationship with God if they don't know God. That would be like being married to someone you've never met.


Scriptures say that Christ' death atoned for sin, and propetiated God in that Christ paid the price of sinners.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in [h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the "law" that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Yes, I agree we are made right with God by our faith. We are "all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." This is the gift of Christ, offered to everyone. As far as I can tell, there's no expiration date given on how long one has to recognize the offer.

Christ drained the cup of God's wrath as he took upon himself the sins of the world.

Bible passage?

We broke the law and Christ paid the fine.

That's not Biblical. From above: "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from observing the law."

Now, if that is true (and scripture says it is true), why are people in Hell?

It's not true. People are in hell when they have turned away from God. If they don't know God, they can't turn away from Him (of course, they can't have a relationship with Him either). If they don't "believe" they are condemned already, so they already know that state of being:

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

And what is it that we must "believe?" so as not to be condemned already?

In the name of God's one and only Son, who is the way and the truth and the life. How do we "believe?" Is it giving our intellectual assent to the idea the Jesus was God's Son? I think above you said that was not it. If we believe, we have a relationship with Christ, which I don't think means groveling before him in our sins, but obeying His commands. "12 Very truly I tell you, all who have faith in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. (John 14) and "15 "If you love me, keep my commands. " (John 14)

John also relates to us what those commands are:

12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because servants do not know their master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
(John 15)

You say that they are in hell because they dont beleive.

I said that? Let me go back and check...

People are in hell because they choose to be, but the door to heaven, through Christ, is always open.

Nope. I didn't say that. I said they are in hell because they choose to be. I think you need to believe in God to say no to a relationship with Him.

I also said at any time they can choose to turn toward God, Who is love. God never puts the dollar back in his pocket.

Scriptures say that Christ died for all sin, even the sin of unbelief.

Unbelief is a sin? That twists my mind...I guess you areferring to the prayer "I believe, help my unbelief!" I think that's a prayer to strengthen a faith that is already there, tinier than a mustard seed.

I ask again: Why are there people in Hell?

See above.

Does the Just and Righteous God of the universe require double payment; first to Christ who paid the sins of the world, and then to the person again?

I searched NIV and KJV for "pay" and "payment," and could find no matches in relation to "sin." Can you point out the passage for this?

Thanks,
luna

 

[Silas]

James

What makes you think people are in a "literal" place called hell? The wages of sin is death, and we are dead in our skin until we have been born again. I liken hell to be that place of torment that existed in my inner man before Christ came and conqured it.

Hell is a place so dreadful it defines description. Hell is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:19-31). It is the place where God's wrath and justice is expressed forever. It is everlasting judgement (Matthew 25:46). It is a furnace of fire that sinners are held over (Matthew 13:41, 50), and there is nothing but the mere pleasure of the Almight God that has them not yet in that place. Hell is a place prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41), but it will host all those who spurn God's grace. It would be wise to avoid hell (Proverbs 15:24), because the soul will suffer there (Matthew 10:28). We who know it exists should tell the lost about it so that they may be snatched from the fires (Jude 23). Hell is the fierceness of God's wrath that the unsaved are exposed to. We read of the fury of God; as in Isa. 59:18.

"According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay fury to his adversaries." So also in Isa. 66:15. "For behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." And in many other places. In Rev. 19:15, we read of "the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." The words are exceeding terrible. If it had only been said, "the wrath of God" the words would have implied that which is infinitely dreadful, but it is "the fierceness and wrath of God." The fury of God! Nothing shall be withheld, because it is too hard for sinners to bear in Hell. Note Ezek. 8:18.

"Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity; and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet I will not hear them." Now God stands ready to pity sinners - this is a day of mercy - the unsaved may cry now with some encouragement of obtaining mercy. But, when once the day of mercy is past, the most lamentable and dolorous cries and shrieks will be in vain; and the unsaved will be wholly lost and thrown away of God, as to any regard to their welfare. God will have no other use to put you to, but to suffer misery.

They shall be continued in being to no other end; for sinners will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction (Romans 9:22) and there will be no other use of this vessel, but to be filled full of wrath. God will be so far from pitying the unsaved when they cry to him, that it is said he will only "laugh and mock" Prov. 1:25,26, etc. Hell is a place that defies description. In the same way that the human mind cannot fathom God's goodness and mercy, the mind cannot grasp the dreadfulness of hell.

 

[Silas]

Hi Silas,

We have different understandings of Scripture Silas, I see that, and right now it looks to me like no amount of 'context' is going to change that. I would presume that you have Bible quotes to back up each of your statements below. I have found in these exchanges that when someone says "read it in context," what they really mean is "I disagree with your interpretation and my interpretation is right." But, if you are willing to find one quote for each statement that you think directly supports your interpretation, I will read the passage and try to understand how you come to your view.

I'll try to do that for a couple of the ones we agree on.



I recall this passage:



and also the Romans passage I already posted:



I also think about the parables of the prodigal son, the one lost sheep, and especially the good Samaritan, which I think answers the question of "who is my brother?" It's also a good teaching on what it 'takes' to inherit eternal life.









I'm not sure how you get just "believers" from the above, but I will grant you that one certainly can't have a relationship with God if they don't know God. That would be like being married to someone you've never met.


Scriptures say that Christ' death atoned for sin, and propetiated God in that Christ paid the price of sinners.



Yes, I agree we are made right with God by our faith. We are "all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." This is the gift of Christ, offered to everyone. As far as I can tell, there's no expiration date given on how long one has to recognize the offer.


Bible passage?

That's not Biblical. From above: "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from observing the law."

It's not true. People are in hell when they have turned away from God. If they don't know God, they can't turn away from Him (of course, they can't have a relationship with Him either). If they don't "believe" they are condemned already, so they already know that state of being:



And what is it that we must "believe?" so as not to be condemned already?

In the name of God's one and only Son, who is the way and the truth and the life. How do we "believe?" Is it giving our intellectual assent to the idea the Jesus was God's Son? I think above you said that was not it. If we believe, we have a relationship with Christ, which I don't think means groveling before him in our sins, but obeying His commands. "12 Very truly I tell you, all who have faith in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. (John 14) and "15 "If you love me, keep my commands. " (John 14)

John also relates to us what those commands are:




I said that? Let me go back and check...Nope. I didn't say that. I said they are in hell because they choose to be. I think you need to believe in God to say no to a relationship with Him.

I also said at any time they can choose to turn toward God, Who is love. God never puts the dollar back in his pocket.


Unbelief is a sin? That twists my mind...I guess you areferring to the prayer "I believe, help my unbelief!" I think that's a prayer to strengthen a faith that is already there, tinier than a mustard seed.


See above.


I searched NIV and KJV for "pay" and "payment," and could find no matches in relation to "sin." Can you point out the passage for this?

Thanks,
luna

Luna,

Wow! That's a lot of stuff! What exactly do you want me to do? I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. Did you say you agree with somethings I said and that the things you didnt agree with, you want me to post why? Also, would you mind breaking up what you said; maybe a little at a time?

Thanks,

Silas

 

[lunamoth]

Luna,

Wow! That's a lot of stuff! What exactly do you want me to do? I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. Did you say you agree with somethings I said and that the things you didnt agree with, you want me to post why? Also, would you mind breaking up what you said; maybe a little at a time?

Thanks,

Silas

You don't have to read it if you don't want, but I don't think I'll go through it again. Took too long the first time! If you read it perhaps you will at least pick out the places where I don't understand how you got some of your statements out of the Bible.

It's getting late now though. Catch you later and have a good night.

luna

 

[lunamoth]

You don't have to read it if you don't want, but I don't think I'll go through it again. Took too long the first time! If you read it perhaps you will at least pick out the places where I don't understand how you got some of your statements out of the Bible.

It's getting late now though. Catch you later and have a good night.

luna

Oh wait, I see where I confused you. What I did was support the statements I agree with. I also asked for you to support some of the things you said that I don't agree with, or at least don't understand how you got them.

Brain...shutting...down.

 

[-James-]

James

What makes you think people are in a "literal" place called hell? The wages of sin is death, and we are dead in our skin until we have been born again. I liken hell to be that place of torment that existed in my inner man before Christ came and conqured it.

Hell is a place so dreadful it defines description. Hell is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:19-31). It is the place where God's wrath and justice is expressed forever. It is everlasting judgement (Matthew 25:46). It is a furnace of fire that sinners are held over (Matthew 13:41, 50), and there is nothing but the mere pleasure of the Almight God that has them not yet in that place. Hell is a place prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41), but it will host all those who spurn God's grace. It would be wise to avoid hell (Proverbs 15:24), because the soul will suffer there (Matthew 10:28). We who know it exists should tell the lost about it so that they may be snatched from the fires (Jude 23). Hell is the fierceness of God's wrath that the unsaved are exposed to. We read of the fury of God; as in Isa. 59:18.

"According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay fury to his adversaries." So also in Isa. 66:15. "For behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." And in many other places. In Rev. 19:15, we read of "the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." The words are exceeding terrible. If it had only been said, "the wrath of God" the words would have implied that which is infinitely dreadful, but it is "the fierceness and wrath of God." The fury of God! Nothing shall be withheld, because it is too hard for sinners to bear in Hell. Note Ezek. 8:18.

"Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity; and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet I will not hear them." Now God stands ready to pity sinners - this is a day of mercy - the unsaved may cry now with some encouragement of obtaining mercy. But, when once the day of mercy is past, the most lamentable and dolorous cries and shrieks will be in vain; and the unsaved will be wholly lost and thrown away of God, as to any regard to their welfare. God will have no other use to put you to, but to suffer misery.

They shall be continued in being to no other end; for sinners will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction (Romans 9:22) and there will be no other use of this vessel, but to be filled full of wrath. God will be so far from pitying the unsaved when they cry to him, that it is said he will only "laugh and mock" Prov. 1:25,26, etc. Hell is a place that defies description. In the same way that the human mind cannot fathom God's goodness and mercy, the mind cannot grasp the dreadfulness of hell.

Thank you for answering my question, Silas. You must have put a great deal of thought into your post. I need to look over it in depth before I can give a proper response, so this post will be breif.

What matters more, today or tomorrow? Tomorrow will take care of itself; today we have a chance to be close to God. Which should I set my mind on, heaven or hell, Love or fear, Comfort or torment, It's all spiritual silas.

Matthew 6:33-34

33. "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (In referrence to previous passages)
34. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

In short, we are to set our sites on God, his righteousness, and his kingdom NOW. If God is infact Love, (Which he is) then this is what we should be embracing daily. Comfort comes when you accept him deep in heart, when you cherish him with all your being. The fires of hell can not stand against the love of God. Hell is indeed a place of torment, but I fully agree with Luna when she said "People are in hell when they have turned away from God. If they don't know God, they can't turn away from Him (of course, they can't have a relationship with Him either). If they don't "believe", they are condemned already, so they already know that state of being"



James

 

[Silas]

Oh wait, I see where I confused you. What I did was support the statements I agree with. I also asked for you to support some of the things you said that I don't agree with, or at least don't understand how you got them.

Brain...shutting...down.

Oh, OK. Thanks for explaining! I'll look over your post again and try to explain better.

 

[Silas]

Thank you for answering my question, Silas. You must have put a great deal of thought into your post. I need to look over it in depth before I can give a proper response, so this post will be breif.

What matters more, today or tomorrow? Tomorrow will take care of itself; today we have a chance to be close to God. Which should I set my mind on, heaven or hell, Love or fear, Comfort or torment, It's all spiritual silas.

Matthew 6:33-34

33. "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (In referrence to previous passages)
34. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

In short, we are to set our sites on God, his righteousness, and his kingdom NOW. If God is infact Love, (Which he is) then this is what we should be embracing daily. Comfort comes when you accept him deep in heart, when you cherish him with all your being. The fires of hell can not stand against the love of God. Hell is indeed a place of torment, but I fully agree with Luna when she said "People are in hell when they have turned away from God. If they don't know God, they can't turn away from Him (of course, they can't have a relationship with Him either). If they don't "believe", they are condemned already, so they already know that state of being"



James

The following should illustrate how I feel: + = James, you have to learn to do two very important things.

1. Read scripture in context.
2. Get the author's intended meaning of scripture and do not add in your own.

If you practice these, you'd be better off. You might not agree, but at least you'd be qouting scripture correctly.

 

[-James-]

I re-read your post, and couldn't find the answer to my question. Where does it say that those who have passed away are tormented there? Again, I liken it to be that place of torment that existed in my inner man before Christ came and conqeured it. To me, it's the natural state of man that people reside in until they embrace/accept God in their hearts.


James