The Trinity of Christianity

Marietta said:
I have never had a discussion with a christian that when giving a differing view from the one they held, that they didn't at some point end up getting very angry and nasty. It is unknowingly used as a means of vampiring energy.
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Of course people have been know to see anger and nasty where none is.
 
Dor, Could you please explain why you think that anybody here other than those getting angry are trying to change the religious beliefs of others?
I am only here sharing what I believe. I believe that all beliefs are valid and believe that it is what is in our hearts that really matters. Which is reflected in how we live our lives and how we interact with other people. My belief is that a person doesn't have to believe in God to go to Heaven. What is more important than a belief in God is if a person has come to a point in his evolutionary growth where he/she lives a good life with respect for the free will of others. I don't believe that God is petty, jealous, hateful and angry or has any of the negative ego based attributes that seek exultation and worship in order to makes itself feel good. God is perfection and in need of nothing. God understands the confusion in this plane of existence and it is ok for us to all see and understand God in our own unique different manner.
With Lots of Love and Light, Midge
 
Dear taijasi, You are welcome. I can sence your energy and fell it is at peace and in a good place.
Love and Light, Midge
 
Marietta said:
Dor, Could you please explain why you think that anybody here other than those getting angry are trying to change the religious beliefs of others?
I am only here sharing what I believe. I believe that all beliefs are valid and believe that it is what is in our hearts that really matters.
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Sorry I do not really believe that.
Well maybe you do believe they are valid if they do not have to do with the Bible and Christ. You show clearly with your posts the contempt you have for the Bible and the way you talk down that you clearly see your self above all of us backwoods, unenlighted Christians.
 
Hello Dor,

I'm very sorry that I have given you the impression that I am talking down anybody or anything. I surely do not see myself as bing above ANYHBODY. look down on the bible. All I have

Sorry I do not really believe that.
Well maybe you do believe they are valid if they do not have to do with the Bible and Christ. You show clearly with your posts the contempt you have for the Bible and the way you talk down that you clearly see your self above all of us backwoods, unenlighted Christians.
 
Hello Dor,

I'm very sorry that I have given you the impression that I am talking down to you or anybody else or talking down your beliefs. This is truly not my intent.

I surely do not see myself as bing above ANYHBODY. I am struggling to find my own way much less trying to tell anybody else which direction to take.

You have also misinterpreted my intentions as to my thoughts about the bible. I do not have any contempt for the bible or anything else for that matter. However I do see contradictions and things in the translations of the bible that are not indictive of a Loving, Perfect Divine Being. This is my choice and I am not asking you to agree with me. I am only sharing my thoughts on the matter. Isn't that the reason this forum was set up?

Source (God) allows for us to question, which brings about answers. Jesus said "seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be given to you."
I have been knocking and seeking all of my life.

If you feel that what I have posted in any manner is stating that you are backwoods and or unenlightened, it is your own mind telling you this not my words.

As much dificulty as you are having following what I am trying to say in the simpliest terms I can find, can't you see how much confusion one can find in the scriptures.

Love and Light, Midge:)
 
OK...OK, I'm a Chrsitian now. Here's my Christian answer:

The word Trinity is not in the Bible and was coined by a 2nd century Christian named Tertullian. Prior to that guy, the early saints used words like...Umm? :confused:..Sorry, going by memory here...OK, I forgot the names (do a google seach, I dont feel like it) :p. Anyway, early saints had other names to describe the God in the Bible, but it was Tertullian who came up with the word "Trinity" to describe the nature of the Godhead. That nature is described as being ONE God in essence but being triune in nature. The Godhead is made up of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. Each of the three seperate persons within the Godhead are co-eternal and one in essence but their is still distintion - The Father is not the Son or is He the Holy Spirit. The Godhead works as thus: From eternity past, the Father chosen some sinners for salvation, the Son died to purchase those sinners, and the Spirit seals them unto the day of redemption. The Son submits to the Father in Love and the Spirit submits to the Son, who again points to the Father. Hence, we see all members within the Godhead proforming the works of salvation from begining to end wereby He alone will get the Glory and His people the joy - best of both possible worlds.
 
taijasi said:
Lol, well - as you say, Q, God Bless that poor, misguided man, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who is so terribly confused and misinformed as to what are and aren't helpful, healthy emotions. I borrow many of my views, and understandings, from his books Healing Anger, and Healing Emotions .... and THANK GOD I ran into you, Q & Kenod!!!

What WOULD I have ever done without you!?! :confused:
taijasa
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Most likely not got up in arms over a concept you don't believe in anyway...:eek:
 
Quahom1 said:
Most likely not got up in arms over a concept you don't believe in anyway...:eek:
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Hmm, I think I'll keep track of what I do and don't believe in, if that's okay with you, Q.

I believe in a Trinity, as well as in a Septenate (for reasons that I hope are obvious, this being the Christian forum ;)). And I believe the Trinity existed from (almost) the earliest stages of Creation, and for trillions (sic) of years prior to the evolution of our solar system.

The Trinity I believe in is reflected, much as light in a mirror, down the through worlds ... until it finds an echo, and literally an embodiment in every single atom. If we began speaking of the trinities in a human being, we would never cease.

The Christian Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, means something a bit different to me, as a student of the Ageless Wisdom. But to say I don't believe in it, is like saying I don't believe there is a sky above, or an earth below. We can even agree that the sky is blue, but one man will take note of the phase of the moon, while another may point to a flock of geese. A third person can observe the prana floating in the air, and behold the gift of life itself.


This reminds me of one of my favorite Floyd songs, or the end of it, anyway:
Childhood's End (Gilmour)

You shout in your sleep.
Perhaps the price is just too steep.
Is your conscience at rest
If once put to the test?
You awake with a start
To just the beating of your heart.
Just one man beneath the sky,
Just two ears, just two eyes.

You set sail across the sea
Of long past thoughts and memories.
Childhood's end, your fantasies
Merge with harsh realities.
And then as the sail is hoist,
You find your eyes are growing moist.
All the fears never voiced
Say you have to make your final choice.

Who are you and who am I
To say we know the reason why?
Some are born; some men die
Beneath one infinite sky.
There'll be war, there'll be peace.
But everything one day will cease.
All the iron turned to rust;
All the proud men turned to dust.
And so all things, time will mend.
So this song will end.
​
I also think Agnideva cast some light on the Trinity a bit earlier, on the Hindu forum. It's over my head, some of it, but it complements what I believe - via the lens of Christianity - and reminds me that ... The Tao that can be named, is not the Eternal Tao. This has relevance to every religion, and I think it even applies to each Aspect of the Christian Trinity ... and of course, to the Absolute.

Namaskar,


taijasi
 
Marietta said:
Hello Q, I understand where you are coming from now.

Boot camp is intended to create mind control alters. They use sleep depravation along with long hours of excessive exercise and Yes, ANGER. Anger is used in every form of mind control especially Monarch mind control.

With a clear mind without all the anger you should have been able to come upon the same or better way of crossing the ditch. Anger clouds the mind.


However what happened with the redneck (as you call him), was that his mind had reached a point of compartmentalization from trauma based mind control which gave him the ability to think with pinpoint accuracy to figure out how to cross the bridge. Once compartmentalization has occurred each portion of the mind thinks independently of the other and no compartment knows what the other has done or is about to do. What ever compartment is brought forward will act out its purpose and then another portion will come forward afterwards so the person will not remember what the other compartment had done if to traumatic to recall. Without this kind of mind control the average human being could never go to war and kill many, many people (strangers to them) and live with themselves afterwards. Many of the Vietnam vets have flash backs due to the mind control programing lifting (and not everybody is mind control material) and have a hard time functioning in society as a reproduction.


Lizard patrol very interesting term for those who have any knowledge of the NWO and those behind it.
Now please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the young people who join the military are bad people or know anything about what is going on inside the armed forces. For the most part they truly think they are defending their country. Most if not all are ignorant of what will happen to them in boot camp. Boot camp is intended to makes mind control slaves out of the soldiers so they will carry out any command without second thought.

Now, I understand why you think it is ok to get angry and that is your choice. The two of us will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Love and Light, Midge
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LOL, Midge, Do I sound like a mind controled slave? I can assure you that from my small experience with the military, American service men and women are taught and encouraged, to ask questions, question answers, carry out orders. And there is a book of rules that must be adhered to called the Uniform Code of Military Justice, of which one of the highest rules, and subject to the stiffest penalties, if not followed is this:

Article 92 of the UCMJ says, "A general order or regulation is lawful unless it is contrary to the Constitution, the laws of the United States...." Both the Nuremberg Principles and the Army Field Manual create a duty to disobey unlawful orders. Article 509 of Field Manual 27-10, codifying another Nuremberg Principle, specifies that "following superior orders" is not a defense to the commission of war crimes, unless the accused "did not know and could not reasonably have been expected to know that the act ordered was unlawful."

Now, I'd like to give you a chance to see exactly what brainwashing the US soldier gets, and must adhere to during his career. I think you will find that the brainwashing is what Mom and Dad should have taught them when they were growing up:

These are the Punitive Articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice...

Article 77 through the variations of Article 134. The punishments for such violations make civil criminal laws look like a slap on the wrist...

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm.htm
 
Marietta said:
Dear taijasi,
I agree with you 100% but without the anger. Do not let them pull you into their trap of anger. Don't you see the IMO here.

I have never had a discussion with a christian that when giving a differing view from the one they held, that they didn't at some point end up getting very angry and nasty. It is unknowingly used as a means of vampiring energy.

I am sending calm and healing energy your way to surround you and keep you at ease.

I for one injoy reading what you post so keep up the good work.

With Love and Light, Midge
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"Moderator hat on"

Careful. I remind you that you are on a Christian forum, and as such are not at liberty to begin libelous comments, for which you are no authority to start with...furhter more no one is an authority on what is correct and what is not, however, in this particular part of CR forum, Christianity is the main theme, hence the dominant thought. Finally, no one likes to be called or implied to be less than civil, particularly when the accuser has started off in much the same way.

"Moderator hat off"

v/r

Q
 
taijasi said:
Hmm, I think I'll keep track of what I do and don't believe in, if that's okay with you, Q.

I believe in a Trinity, as well as in a Septenate (for reasons that I hope are obvious, this being the Christian forum ;)). And I believe the Trinity existed from (almost) the earliest stages of Creation, and for trillions (sic) of years prior to the evolution of our solar system.

The Trinity I believe in is reflected, much as light in a mirror, down the through worlds ... until it finds an echo, and literally an embodiment in every single atom. If we began speaking of the trinities in a human being, we would never cease.

The Christian Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, means something a bit different to me, as a student of the Ageless Wisdom. But to say I don't believe in it, is like saying I don't believe there is a sky above, or an earth below. We can even agree that the sky is blue, but one man will take note of the phase of the moon, while another may point to a flock of geese. A third person can observe the prana floating in the air, and behold the gift of life itself.



This reminds me of one of my favorite Floyd songs, or the end of it, anyway:
Childhood's End (Gilmour)

You shout in your sleep.
Perhaps the price is just too steep.
Is your conscience at rest
If once put to the test?
You awake with a start
To just the beating of your heart.
Just one man beneath the sky,
Just two ears, just two eyes.

You set sail across the sea
Of long past thoughts and memories.
Childhood's end, your fantasies
Merge with harsh realities.
And then as the sail is hoist,
You find your eyes are growing moist.
All the fears never voiced
Say you have to make your final choice.

Who are you and who am I
To say we know the reason why?
Some are born; some men die
Beneath one infinite sky.
There'll be war, there'll be peace.
But everything one day will cease.
All the iron turned to rust;
All the proud men turned to dust.
And so all things, time will mend.
So this song will end.

​
I also think Agnideva cast some light on the Trinity a bit earlier, on the Hindu forum. It's over my head, some of it, but it complements what I believe - via the lens of Christianity - and reminds me that ... The Tao that can be named, is not the Eternal Tao. This has relevance to every religion, and I think it even applies to each Aspect of the Christian Trinity ... and of course, to the Absolute.

Namaskar,


taijasi
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So will I sir, if this "challenge" continues here in the Christian forum.

v/r

Q
 
Ok, thread open.

I remind all, what it is not, it is not a personal "instant messanger", nor is it a "door mat" to wipe boots on the majority belief housed here.

v/r

Quahom
 
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In the bible it states that god raised christ, the spirit raised christ, and christ had divine life within himself to raise himself. what is being said here in the context of the entire scripture is that what the the father does, the son does, and the spirit does--all in agreement.
 
The original quote is def from the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints (or Mormons). and is in no way a common or orthadox interpritation of the trinity. (Mormonism is not a monotheistic religion as God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 seperate entities, each worth of worship)The idea of the trinity came into existance with the Nicean Creed; it was an attempt by the theologians of the time to express the unknowable and unguessable nature of God to the human mind- if you like a deliberate paradox designed to give the 'common man' an idea of the mystery and wonder of God. It was never intended to be taken literally or to become a point of doctrine or dogma and nothing even remotly like it had appeared in Christianity before the Nicean Creed. (check out 'A history Of God' by Karen Armstrong- isbn 0099273675). It has no biblical or scriptural back up and is something that has been taken completely out of context and twisted into something it was never meant to be.
 
before any creed, people experienced god as a trinity, some understood it, some didn't even realize it. moses experienced the trinity at the burning bush, people experienced the trinity when jesus was baptized, david experienced the trinity when he was filled with the holy spirit and said "my lord said to my lord", and the beginning of creation before man was even around the trinity created the universe, and there are more examples. i think you put too much emphasis on creeds as a platform to debase pre-existance of the trinity and knowledge of it, yet they do not define the trinity, they just help agree on a standard, if you will, that links churches together that believe in the same doctrine--god is father, son, and holy ghost.
 
pfw said:
The original quote is def from the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints (or Mormons). and is in no way a common or orthadox interpritation of the trinity. (Mormonism is not a monotheistic religion as God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 seperate entities, each worth of worship)The idea of the trinity came into existance with the Nicean Creed; it was an attempt by the theologians of the time to express the unknowable and unguessable nature of God to the human mind- if you like a deliberate paradox designed to give the 'common man' an idea of the mystery and wonder of God. It was never intended to be taken literally or to become a point of doctrine or dogma and nothing even remotly like it had appeared in Christianity before the Nicean Creed. (check out 'A history Of God' by Karen Armstrong- isbn 0099273675). It has no biblical or scriptural back up and is something that has been taken completely out of context and twisted into something it was never meant to be.
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The concept of the "Trinity" began in Genesis...unless one considers God as being Schizofrenic. No matter how one looks at it, God is talking to others, besides Himself...and I don't think by the "we" and "us" and "our", His verbage is describing angels, either.

That would put the "trinity" concept at about 5000 BC (E), not 400 AD (ACE).

v/r

Joshua
 
The precise Doctrine of the Trinity (like that of the Incarnation), are considered as Revelation within the Catholic Tradition, and as such are not a priori accessible to reason or logic (in which case man would have come to the doctrine under his own steam, as it were).

There are many triunes in the world's spiritual and philosophical systems, but none match the Trinity so that they might be called an equivalant – the work of the great French metaphysician René Guénon, a Sufi and father of the Sophia Perennis as the philosophical foundation of Comparative Religion, was at pains to point out this fact – not so much to champion the uniqueness of Christian doctrine, but rather defend the proper understanding of Vedic principle.

These doctrines were the work of the Greek Fathers, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in reflection upon the data of Revelation carried and transmitted by Scripture – so whilst one can 'backtrack' and trace evidence for the Doctrine to the very beginning, it would be wrong to say that, for example, the Wisdom Literature of Judaism could or should have arrived at an understanding of the Trinity.

The great Christological debates of the 2 - 5th centuries trace the development of this doctrine, and the development of the Creed as its statement, culminating in the saying of Athenasius:
God became man, that man might become God."
("On The Incarnation" 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.)

Thomas
 
And what this boils down to, I think we should note ... is that the HUMAN mind, varying in its understanding according to the various *WORLD* religious systems, philosophies, and ideologies, has many ways of understanding God's Threefold Nature - call it what you will.

You say tomAYto, I say tomAHto. :rolleyes:
But a rose, by any other name ... ;) :)

And just as there is a threefold nature, so there is a Sevenfold nature, a Septenate. To pursue the Vedic teachings along this line, consider the Seven Rishis, and the Saptaparna (seven-leaved "man-plant"). Exoteric Buddhist teachings will acknowledge only five dhyani buddhas and dhyani bodhisattvas ... while the esoteric will state that there are seven.

Pythagoras, who knew well the Sophia Perennis, taught us all this with the Divine Tetraktys. And while this refers to four, one can clearly observe the parallels ... with a little observation, and the use of the Spiritual Intuition. Proclus tells us that "the Father of the golden verses [Pythagoras] celebrates the Tetraktys as the fountain of perennial nature" (On the Timaeus 3).

So the idea that the Trinity originated with Christianity ... we can say is *conditionally* true, just in that same way that Toyota invented the compact car. We can quibble, and we can say *certainly* that Toyota was the first auto maker to produce the Camry, or Honda the Accord. Did either of these invent the automobile? No. Nor did Christianity invent God's threefold nature. And to say that it was not known to the ancients - of remotest antiquity - is purely absurd.

The Catholics may consider their revelation unique and you may think that this stuff was not a priori accessible ... but then, you are also free to THINK that you invented oxygen. Even science, wondrous as are her discoveries, did not invent oxgen. And Democritus, for his supposedly elementary theories about matter - may well have known truths which the brightest scientists of today have not even fathomed!

What Christianity has done is to evolve a certain presentation of God's Threefold Nature ... which appeals to many, to be certain. It is a fine system, yes, but not the first. I believe Blazn's post, from yesterday, summarizes my points succinctly. ;)

~Zag
 
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