taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Ok, but by virtue of what? What is it that brings this about?
That was my point ...
- and my answer? Thought, word and deed.
Acta virum probant (Actions prove the man)
Salvation not restricted to Christains
- Thread starter Pico
- Start date
That was my point ...
- and my answer? Thought, word and deed.
Acta virum probant (Actions prove the man)
lunamoth
Episcopalian
And this is exactly it Thomas. All members of the Church, of the Body of Christ, are ministers with the mission of reconciliation of the world, in the name of Christ. But as I said in another thread recently, what does that look like? Earl reminded us of St. Francis' instruction: preach the Gospel constantly, using words if necessary.
Earl reminded us of St. Francis' instruction: preach the Gospel constantly, using words if necessary.
This I like...thanks Earl and Luna.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Depends if you can fulfill the law of love or not. What do you think?
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
I beg to differ... our every thought word and deed cannot touch the righteousness and holiness of God. We are only made righteous (holy) and set apart (holy) by the blood of the lamb, Jesus Christ. If one isnt born from above or washed in the blood of the lamb one will not see eternal life they will only see hell and destruction.
Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
There are a few and there are a many.
our every thought word and deed cannot touch the righteousness and holiness of God. We are only made righteous (holy) and set apart (holy) by the blood of the lamb, Jesus Christ. If one isnt born from above or washed in the blood of the lamb one will not see eternal life they will only see hell and destruction. Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
There are a few and there are a many.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
I thought part of fulfilling the law of love is realizing that you need Jesus and you cannot do without him, knowing what he has done for you and why. Therefore, you love him with all of your heart, soul, and mind, and of course, you love your neighbor as yourself.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
He also said that there is no greater love than laying your life down for your friends. The love Jesus Christ has for us is humbling.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
Hi D-
Thanks, I was anwering #20.
Karen
Thanks, I was anwering #20.
Karen
Corinthians 5....it appears to me Christ died for EVERYONE'S sins, whether they know it, care about it, or not.
And Matthew 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
We must all be reconciled with our brothers....all of humanity, before we are to offer ourselves to G-d...
So as I see it, not only is salvation not restricted to Christians, but unless we accept that fact...it isn't offered to us
and later in 15:22 "as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ"
And Matthew 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
We must all be reconciled with our brothers....all of humanity, before we are to offer ourselves to G-d...
So as I see it, not only is salvation not restricted to Christians, but unless we accept that fact...it isn't offered to us
pattimax
Somewhat returning
! Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
I agree He died for everyones sins.. the crux of the situation is that you have to repent before you get the forgiveness... you arent forgiven without it.. We dont get out of it that easy. Its just like humanity to want the most yet try to give the least.. Isnt it awesome that we have a God that understands us.
The verses you are quoting are for believers.. they dont apply to non-believers. Im not meaning to sound harsh. really.
If they were for everyone than His dying was for nothing.
The verses you are quoting are for believers.. they dont apply to non-believers. Im not meaning to sound harsh. really.
If they were for everyone than His dying was for nothing.
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taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
I think what appeals so much to me about John 10:16 is not that it suggests to me that there is "Salvation" for other people than Christians ... since I don't believe in the Christian definition of Salvation to begin with. I'm much more Eastern in my approach, but since I do believe in God, I prefer to think of Earth as being like a giant schoolroom ... with 6 billion students!
And instead of Salvation, which is like being rescued from something, I prefer the idea of Liberation, which suggests the moving on toward greater freedom ... and Responsibility. Plato spoke of this, in his Allegory of the Cave (wiki page).
As more of a Liberal Christian, I hold the somewhat unorthodox view that God literally intended for us to dwell in this world, in "coats of skin" (bodies of flesh and blood), and YES, even in this "imperfect state" - which we might characterize as being apart from God ... and each other. But these were not intended as a permanent condition, as I see it, nor did God EVER set up a state of affairs whereby our `Immortal Soul' was, or could be, "at stake."
If there is no `Hell,' in the way we've come to conceive, imagine and fear it ... nor a Heaven in the sense of "streets paved with gold," but instead, just differing states of consciousness - then truly, all things are possible without violating either the laws of nature, of physics, of God - or even of common sense!
In short, the more we learn about ourselves, and the world we live in, the more we can see how God creates just as we do, yet on a much, much grander scale. Relative to human terms, God is Perfect beyond imagining ... but I also believe in Relative Perfection. Somewhere in between the Perfection of God, and the relative perfection of a human being ... I think we find men such as Jesus of Nazareth. Yet I think there have been others, and there always will be - except that in the future, ever so gradually, we shall see more of them, as Humanity begins to grow up, or spiritually mature.
Liberation, then, or `Salvation,' may come to be understood as a term describing the Spiritual state - of both consciousness and Being - of ANY man or woman, who has proceeded beyond the limitations of worldly living. We already understand this as righteousness, and as dwelling with God, yet CHRIST dwelled with God, even as He walked the very earth. Perhaps not in every moment was Jesus fully in touch with the Heavenly Father ... and therefore he was called into the wilderness, where for 40 days and 40 nights he fasted, and prepared himself to overcome great trials ... in order to permanently deepen his Relationship - with God.
We may not have been called, yet, to prepare for this kind of drawing closer to God, but there are Yogis, Saints, Mystics, devotees, spiritual aspirants, and followers of a dozen - or even several score - different traditions, throughout the world ... who have ALL spoken of undergoing such a preparation, even in similar terms ... and also of having experienced an extraordinary transformation of consciousness and of Being.
Some do not speak of this in purely spiritual or religious terms; other do. It depends on the person, their background, and what is most comfortable for them. Some have been ridiculed, doubted, even locked away for their "delusions." Others have been revered, exalted, even worshipped to the point of deification.
NEVER, NOT ONCE, have I ever said at CR - that Jesus was not a Son of God, or that he was not the Father's Son. Yet a curious phenomenon occurs, as soon as someone suggests that Jesus was God's Messenger, and that the Salvation he brought was in his Teachings - and most importantly, in the following of his Teachings.
I think, if we would dare to stop, and think, before trying to argue such a thing (which seems to obvious to me, that I forget sometimes that people even could choose to dispute it) .. I think, that we might find ourselves embarrassed. We would argue, that in following Christ's own instructions, we might not meet with Salvation ... while through the deification, and exaltation of THE MAN, we might?
I will not even dispute the teaching that Christ was fully mortal, fully divine ... yet I will put to you this: WHICH PART, do you deify, and glorify, when you "exalt Christ" ... and how do you tell the difference?
And if we are speaking of the blood of Jesus of Nazareth, in any other than a symbolic sense, remind me again how THIS is not exalting, and deifying, the MAN, over the `God.'
And what do we mean, anyway, with this word `exalt?' And why is it, remind me, for I am not so sure I understand, why it is different to exalt, or revere, the example of Righteousness, and Divine Living, through such an example as Christ Jesus ... than to exalt Sri Krishna in the East, or Mohammad in the Middle East, or the Buddha in Japan, or Quetzlcoatl in Central America.
For each of the Holy Books of these other nations, and peoples, speak plainly of these Holy men, as being - literally - the embodiment, and expression of the Divine, i.e., God on earth. Yes, fully human, fully divine.
Somewhere, I lost the thread. HOW IS IT, that Salvation was ever restricted - to Christians in the first place? Explain for me that.
Namaskar
And instead of Salvation, which is like being rescued from something, I prefer the idea of Liberation, which suggests the moving on toward greater freedom ... and Responsibility. Plato spoke of this, in his Allegory of the Cave (wiki page).
As more of a Liberal Christian, I hold the somewhat unorthodox view that God literally intended for us to dwell in this world, in "coats of skin" (bodies of flesh and blood), and YES, even in this "imperfect state" - which we might characterize as being apart from God ... and each other. But these were not intended as a permanent condition, as I see it, nor did God EVER set up a state of affairs whereby our `Immortal Soul' was, or could be, "at stake."
If there is no `Hell,' in the way we've come to conceive, imagine and fear it ... nor a Heaven in the sense of "streets paved with gold," but instead, just differing states of consciousness - then truly, all things are possible without violating either the laws of nature, of physics, of God - or even of common sense!
In short, the more we learn about ourselves, and the world we live in, the more we can see how God creates just as we do, yet on a much, much grander scale. Relative to human terms, God is Perfect beyond imagining ... but I also believe in Relative Perfection. Somewhere in between the Perfection of God, and the relative perfection of a human being ... I think we find men such as Jesus of Nazareth. Yet I think there have been others, and there always will be - except that in the future, ever so gradually, we shall see more of them, as Humanity begins to grow up, or spiritually mature.
Liberation, then, or `Salvation,' may come to be understood as a term describing the Spiritual state - of both consciousness and Being - of ANY man or woman, who has proceeded beyond the limitations of worldly living. We already understand this as righteousness, and as dwelling with God, yet CHRIST dwelled with God, even as He walked the very earth. Perhaps not in every moment was Jesus fully in touch with the Heavenly Father ... and therefore he was called into the wilderness, where for 40 days and 40 nights he fasted, and prepared himself to overcome great trials ... in order to permanently deepen his Relationship - with God.
We may not have been called, yet, to prepare for this kind of drawing closer to God, but there are Yogis, Saints, Mystics, devotees, spiritual aspirants, and followers of a dozen - or even several score - different traditions, throughout the world ... who have ALL spoken of undergoing such a preparation, even in similar terms ... and also of having experienced an extraordinary transformation of consciousness and of Being.
Some do not speak of this in purely spiritual or religious terms; other do. It depends on the person, their background, and what is most comfortable for them. Some have been ridiculed, doubted, even locked away for their "delusions." Others have been revered, exalted, even worshipped to the point of deification.
NEVER, NOT ONCE, have I ever said at CR - that Jesus was not a Son of God, or that he was not the Father's Son. Yet a curious phenomenon occurs, as soon as someone suggests that Jesus was God's Messenger, and that the Salvation he brought was in his Teachings - and most importantly, in the following of his Teachings.
I think, if we would dare to stop, and think, before trying to argue such a thing (which seems to obvious to me, that I forget sometimes that people even could choose to dispute it) .. I think, that we might find ourselves embarrassed. We would argue, that in following Christ's own instructions, we might not meet with Salvation ... while through the deification, and exaltation of THE MAN, we might?
I will not even dispute the teaching that Christ was fully mortal, fully divine ... yet I will put to you this: WHICH PART, do you deify, and glorify, when you "exalt Christ" ... and how do you tell the difference?
And if we are speaking of the blood of Jesus of Nazareth, in any other than a symbolic sense, remind me again how THIS is not exalting, and deifying, the MAN, over the `God.'
And what do we mean, anyway, with this word `exalt?' And why is it, remind me, for I am not so sure I understand, why it is different to exalt, or revere, the example of Righteousness, and Divine Living, through such an example as Christ Jesus ... than to exalt Sri Krishna in the East, or Mohammad in the Middle East, or the Buddha in Japan, or Quetzlcoatl in Central America.
For each of the Holy Books of these other nations, and peoples, speak plainly of these Holy men, as being - literally - the embodiment, and expression of the Divine, i.e., God on earth. Yes, fully human, fully divine.
Somewhere, I lost the thread. HOW IS IT, that Salvation was ever restricted - to Christians in the first place? Explain for me that.
Namaskar
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
I cant even respond to your post.. theres too much. So I will just respond to the last bit..
Because the bible says so... That is the authority on which I speak of. Nothing more and nothing less..
I would like to add that righeousness is doing what is right.. what is right? Gods word. So.. Gods word is righteous.. and we are righteous when we follow Gods word..
what is sin... sin is disobedience to God.. when do we sin... when we disobey God..
Because the bible says so... That is the authority on which I speak of. Nothing more and nothing less..
I would like to add that righeousness is doing what is right.. what is right? Gods word. So.. Gods word is righteous.. and we are righteous when we follow Gods word..
what is sin... sin is disobedience to God.. when do we sin... when we disobey God..
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
I'll go with this much ...
- but my understanding of the Bible is that not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, shall be [saved].
And John 10:16 speaks to me of several paths of approach, each of which is an example of righteous living, while similarly, there are many ways to sin.
Most of us combine some techniques (or tendencies) of righteous living, with a few bad habits (or tendencies to sin), and thus our progress toward Salvation is rather slow.
But this is not a race toward the finish; it is, as I see it, an opportunity to learn many lessons, and while there are definitely certain criteria - or areas - in which ALL students must excel, there are also strengths (aptitudes) which some students will demonstrate in one way, while other students will show an altogether different proficiency.
Other flocks, all needing tending - and the Shepherd sees to it than even the lost sheep is/are found, and returned.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Then.. who are the goats? There are so many things you are missing in your understanding of these scriptures you are posting..
The lost sheep are backslidden Christians..
The ones that call the name Lord and He knows them not are those call Him Lord but didnt repent and give their lives to Him..
Theres no halfway in this..
Its ALL or nothing,.
The lost sheep are backslidden Christians..
The ones that call the name Lord and He knows them not are those call Him Lord but didnt repent and give their lives to Him..
Theres no halfway in this..
Its ALL or nothing,.
Revelation gives non Christians half a chance to have salvation. Granted it is a 50/50 chance. The book of life is opened at judgement day, and either one's name is in it or is not.I'll go with this much ...
- but my understanding of the Bible is that not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, shall be [saved].
And John 10:16 speaks to me of several paths of approach, each of which is an example of righteous living, while similarly, there are many ways to sin.
Most of us combine some techniques (or tendencies) of righteous living, with a few bad habits (or tendencies to sin), and thus our progress toward Salvation is rather slow.
But this is not a race toward the finish; it is, as I see it, an opportunity to learn many lessons, and while there are definitely certain criteria - or areas - in which ALL students must excel, there are also strengths (aptitudes) which some students will demonstrate in one way, while other students will show an altogether different proficiency.
Other flocks, all needing tending - and the Shepherd sees to it than even the lost sheep is/are found, and returned.And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)
edit: Let me go one step further. In Christianity, there is no "lottery" or "chance" as to having salvation. If one accepts the gift of Christ's salvation, then all they have to concern self with is the "reward" they will have in heaven (based on the talents given them and how they invested in Christ's salvation for others).
That does not mean, how many won people over to Christ, persee, but rather what did one do with his life once accepting Christ...very important. Can't sit on one's butt after accepting salvation. Got to move and show Christ in living life and dealing with others...
Maybe that will help.
v/r
Joshua
S
shadowman
Guest
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
How does a mountain goat ascend a mountain? Does the goat meander, and wander along, going with the herd? (Sometimes, yes ...) Or does the goat turn, and go straight up the side, far outstripping the sheep?
The Goat is Capricorn ... consult your astrology guide. Or this Wikipedia page, on Capricorn, where it tells us:
No, things are NOT always "all or nothing," black and white. Sometimes, ideas get twisted around, and the GOAT becomes the symbol of evil, as PAN, the fawn, who was the God of shepherds and flocks (which seems ever so relevant here) ... becomes SATAN, and scares little children at night because they don't know any better.
But as for there being no halfway ... I would gently suggest that you might rethink this idea. Those who follow the ways of God perfectly, by definition, are perfect - while those who might err utterly and completely, would be totally ignorant ... yet I have never met someone in the latter category, and people in the former seem few and far between.
Thus, we are all - more or less, halfway. We can even seek to give our utmost, and this - is what makes us goats, rather than sheep. Christ cares for, and loves His sheep, every bit as much as the goats. The goats, He depends upon, and uses in order to reach the sheep. But would a goat go on, and on, and on ... about being set apart, either due to one's righteous ways of living, or because Christ is able to use them for God's Purpose?
... only in error, only in error.
So this flock over here, because they bear a certain brand, would be silly, silly sheep indeed, to scoff at their fellow sheep, just because those other sheep wore a different brand.
Methinks you have confused goats, with wolves ... and a "wolf in sheep's clothing," as Wile E. Coyote, is not a goat, not by a long shot.
Even that wolf in sheep's clothing, for Christ, is but a lamb that has strayed ... and if we do not as yet have the power, or the understanding, the love or the forgiveness, to bring that sheep back to the flock ... then I hope we will at least trust Christ, and let Him see to it that God's Plan is fulfilled.
I do.
The Goat is Capricorn ... consult your astrology guide. Or this Wikipedia page, on Capricorn, where it tells us:
Capricorn is associated with the Greek myth of the goat Amalthea who provided the infant Zeus with milk.
Notice, btw, what well-known figure among Christians, was born under this sign ... and consider that for esotericists, it is the SIGN OF INITIATION - such as that which Jesus underwent, or prepared for, in the desert, and completed on Mt. Tabor, just as earlier he was purified at the River Jordan.No, things are NOT always "all or nothing," black and white. Sometimes, ideas get twisted around, and the GOAT becomes the symbol of evil, as PAN, the fawn, who was the God of shepherds and flocks (which seems ever so relevant here) ... becomes SATAN, and scares little children at night because they don't know any better.
But as for there being no halfway ... I would gently suggest that you might rethink this idea. Those who follow the ways of God perfectly, by definition, are perfect - while those who might err utterly and completely, would be totally ignorant ... yet I have never met someone in the latter category, and people in the former seem few and far between.
Thus, we are all - more or less, halfway. We can even seek to give our utmost, and this - is what makes us goats, rather than sheep. Christ cares for, and loves His sheep, every bit as much as the goats. The goats, He depends upon, and uses in order to reach the sheep. But would a goat go on, and on, and on ... about being set apart, either due to one's righteous ways of living, or because Christ is able to use them for God's Purpose?
... only in error, only in error.
So this flock over here, because they bear a certain brand, would be silly, silly sheep indeed, to scoff at their fellow sheep, just because those other sheep wore a different brand.
Methinks you have confused goats, with wolves ... and a "wolf in sheep's clothing," as Wile E. Coyote, is not a goat, not by a long shot.
Even that wolf in sheep's clothing, for Christ, is but a lamb that has strayed ... and if we do not as yet have the power, or the understanding, the love or the forgiveness, to bring that sheep back to the flock ... then I hope we will at least trust Christ, and let Him see to it that God's Plan is fulfilled.
I do.
Can't have your cake and eat it too. Have to give up something in order to have a better thing, or simply keep what you have now, and give up what could be later.
Astrology has nothing to do with Christianity...not the way you are pulling things from so far out, just to attempt to make a point. BTW a "sea goat" (capricorn), does not exist.