Evils which thwart Man

[MindFreak666]

Yes, many suttas have moral lessons but not all. Morality is only one part of Buddhism. Morality is the preliminary stage of the path.
They don't just appeal to logic, and Buddha said never to take his teachings on faith. He encouraged us to think for ourselves and never believe anything or follow anything until we've evaluated it.

You are right, we don't need to explain anything, with some effort and practice we can learn these things definitely for ourselves.

 

[JosephM]

I never denied belief in any source, or the absolute, or unconditioned. Buddha said how could there be freedom from all this if there wasn't something else.
But God in the sense of a being and a creator has nothing to do with that which is un-made, un-born, un-conditioned, The absolute.

Mindfreak666,

Your statement was that there is no proof of a supreme creator. All that exists comes from the unconditioned, unborn, the absolute. By nature it is a creator so that those things seen (regardless of whether they are illusions or not) are created from the things that are formless and not seen. One can argue the reality or non-reality of the seen but for what use? If you believe in the unconditioned and you believe you exist then in my view, in essence you believe in God. Not the God commonly described in words but never-the-less God.

The Buddha refuted the idea of a supreme creator many times, saying that it was a form of wrong view, born of ignorance. Not that I take this on faith but the sutta I am refering to has a very lengthy discussion on why it is a flawed view point.

The view held of God at the time of Buddha was very flawed and born of ignorance as are many views today. That doesn't refute creation, absolute reality or a creator God.

The fact that there is much much more to our reality than just our physical existence and mundane lives does not necessarily prove that there is some original creator, some supreme being. We don't give ourselves enough credit and we put our power into the hands of some unknown being.
I don't think we need to explain away all the complexity and all the mystery with thoughts of creators and beginnings because these are concepts we created because of our linear existence, but outside of the physical world, time is meaningless.

Agreed. We do not need alot of man made explanations for God yet your physical existence itself IS proof of a creator whether you acknowledge it or not. The details outlined by religions may indeed be erroneous (which is my view that they are erroneous) however that does not change the reality in this world of duality that we are a creation of God. In a non-dual sense creation and creator is One since there is no subject or object, only God. To argue either point is of course fruitless. Better to experience reality then to speak of it.

Love and Peace,
JM

 

[MindFreak666]

"All that exists comes from the unconditioned, unborn, the absolute"
Nothing comes from the absolute, the absolute just IS. All that exists, those things we believe exist, are made, conditioned, etc. Therefore they do not come from the unmade, the unconditioned.
They are temporary unlike the absolute.

The Buddha specifically refuted creation and a Creator god in his sermon about flawed views. The view held of god at the time of the buddha was flawed and born of ignorance as you say, just as it is today.

My existence is not proof of a creator, it is proof of karma, cause and effect.

 

[Quahom1]

I see no proof of a supreme creator

Indeed. Have you considered the complexity of your own body? How about your mind? What about the etheral quality of your "Spirit/Soul"? Have you looked at a tree lately? I mean really looked at it...or a weed, or a flower, or an Opossum, or a squirel, or a frog, or a cat, or a dog, or a ferret?

Let us consider the complexity of a human creation in the making. Need an egg with mitochondrial DNA, and a zygote with the Flexal DNA, else there is no human. DNA, what a fascinating study. A strand of nucleac acids with billions of "switches" that turned on or off determine gender, color, hair type, character traits, intelligence potential, looks, strength, weakness, longevity, life or death...(I can get deeper in this complexity of life).

What I do know is this, random chance that ingredients fall together and life begins is so astronomical as to be impossible, let alone the variety of life that we are aware of (and are part of). We do not have computers yet that can calculate the odds.

However, Physics does tell us in no uncertain terms, that without guidance, the universe is want for entropy. Man, (and life at large), appears to counter that entropy affect.

We stir the "pot" (all life does).

I know this for fact as well. I am an energy being, housed in a slower energy body. I know that energy can not be created nor destroyed...only changed. There will be a time when my body can not sustain my energetic self. But when that time comes my energetic self will not evaporate into the cosmos. If nothing else, my essence will go on and on and on into that which is the cosmos.

However, I think someone bigger than me, has a better plan. And that someone wants me collectively whole in spirit, instead of dissapated throughout the universe(s).

And it all begins here, in this corporial world. Guess we're going through training, for the bigger role we are to play in LIFE...

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

"All that exists comes from the unconditioned, unborn, the absolute"
Nothing comes from the absolute, the absolute just IS. All that exists, those things we believe exist, are made, conditioned, etc. Therefore they do not come from the unmade, the unconditioned.
They are temporary unlike the absolute.

The Buddha specifically refuted creation and a Creator god in his sermon about flawed views. The view held of god at the time of the buddha was flawed and born of ignorance as you say, just as it is today.

My existence is not proof of a creator, it is proof of karma, cause and effect.

I guess we agree to disagree then. You say creator has nothing to do with your existence. I say creator has everything to do with my existence.

We seem to be doggedly determined in our beliefs...BUT, mine holds out hope...what does your's hold out...?

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

"All that exists comes from the unconditioned, unborn, the absolute"
Nothing comes from the absolute, the absolute just IS. All that exists, those things we believe exist, are made, conditioned, etc. Therefore they do not come from the unmade, the unconditioned.
They are temporary unlike the absolute.

The Buddha specifically refuted creation and a Creator god in his sermon about flawed views. The view held of god at the time of the buddha was flawed and born of ignorance as you say, just as it is today.

My existence is not proof of a creator, it is proof of karma, cause and effect.

Well, I'm not sure about your "life style", and I am not one to judge such, but I will tell you true, because of my belief, I put on a uniform, I go into hurricanes, I search for life in peril, and I put my own life on the line doing so. And I have absolutely no problem doing such. Because to me...all life comes from a perfect creator. Such a creator expects us to look out for the other, even at the cost of our own life here.

Indeed, if every human looked out for the life of every other human...what a chain reaction (and ramification), that would have...

Guess we are our brother's keeper.

I'll pray for you.

v/r

Q

 

[MindFreak666]

we will have to agree to disagree.
I agree that there is more to reality than just this but that doesn't imply a supreme being or a creator. We are the supreme beings, we just havent reached our full potential. I see no reason to put my power in the hands of something that is just a concept. A belief. the idea of a creator is created by your mind because of the linear way we live in this physical world, but outside of this physical world time is irrelevant.

"I think something bigger than me has a better plan"
You are taking your own power away, underestimating your own potential. Because you are confused and as most people clueless about greater reality you need to hope that somewhere someone is in control. But we can all develop our minds, our consciousness, and learn all the answers for ourselves.

Your belief holds FALSE hope, mine teaches that we have incredible power within ourselves and that we don't need to rely on anything outside of ourselves, liberation is within us. The ability to reach a higher existence and leave this one which is full of negativity and delusion. We just need to follow the right steps and put forth the necessary effort. Theres no need to wait around for some imaginary being to do something for us.


I agree that we need to look for each other. Not because some being wants us to or will punish us if we dont, or will reward us if we do. But because it is what is right. Because we are all in the same boat here. Buddhism does teach compassion and kindness and morality. These are the preliminary steps of the path.

 

[Quahom1]

we will have to agree to disagree.
I agree that there is more to reality than just this but that doesn't imply a supreme being or a creator. We are the supreme beings, we just havent reached our full potential. I see no reason to put my power in the hands of something that is just a concept. A belief. the idea of a creator is created by your mind because of the linear way we live in this physical world, but outside of this physical world time is irrelevant.

"I think something bigger than me has a better plan"
You are taking your own power away, underestimating your own potential. Because you are confused and as most people clueless about greater reality you need to hope that somewhere someone is in control. But we can all develop our minds, our consciousness, and learn all the answers for ourselves.

Your belief holds FALSE hope, mine teaches that we have incredible power within ourselves and that we don't need to rely on anything outside of ourselves, liberation is within us. The ability to reach a higher existence and leave this one which is full of negativity and delusion. We just need to follow the right steps and put forth the necessary effort. Theres no need to wait around for some imaginary being to do something for us.


I agree that we need to look for each other. Not because some being wants us to or will punish us if we dont, or will reward us if we do. But because it is what is right. Because we are all in the same boat here. Buddhism does teach compassion and kindness and morality. These are the preliminary steps of the path.

Lol, I have two sons walking the streets of Iraq. They are all that is between me and the end of my lineage, yet they walk Bagdad, and (oh my god), do the same thing I do...they reach out and try to help others.

It's not me they do this for, nor themselves. They believe in a higher power, and they make things happen because of that belief.

So, forgive me, if I do not accept your "sound principles" on self preservation. I think differently, and there are two others who not only think like me, but act on such differences...that makes three humans to your one.

Therefore, my theory/philosophy becomes reality in action, while yours remains a philosophy/theory in absentia...

Which one is viable and more constructive?

v/r

Q

 

[MindFreak666]

This is becoming like bickering. I dont mean to belittle your beliefs.
But Im not sure what you mean by "self preservation"
I never said anything like that. I just said i see the arguement for the existence a creator to be flawed.

Theres no need to say three to my one because Im not the only buddhist in the world. This isnt a competition about who performs the most service to others. For one, I do plenty. I am a kind and caring person, I go out of my way to help perfect strangers, and much more but theres no need for us to start "measuring" so put it away. My disbelief in some supreme being which I see as imaginary, doesn't mean I don't help others.
And no offence intended but I see no great service in killing people, excuse me for assuming your sons are in the military but when you mention iraq thats what jumps into my mind. But this isnt a discussion on war.

Buddhism is mean to be a path of "practice" which means you actively follow the path daily. Which makes it reality in action.

 

[Quahom1]

This is becoming like bickering. I dont mean to belittle your beliefs.
But Im not sure what you mean by "self preservation"
I never said anything like that. I just said i see the arguement for the existence a creator to be flawed.

Theres no need to say three to my one because Im not the only buddhist in the world. This isnt a competition about who performs the most service to others. For one, I do plenty. I am a kind and caring person, I go out of my way to help perfect strangers, and much more but theres no need for us to start "measuring" so put it away. My disbelief in some supreme being which I see as imaginary, doesn't mean I don't help others.
And no offence intended but I see no great service in killing people, excuse me for assuming your sons are in the military but when you mention iraq thats what jumps into my mind. But this isnt a discussion on war.

Buddhism is mean to be a path of "practice" which means you actively follow the path daily. Which makes it reality in action.

Not quite (lol). I've understood every point you've made (been there, done that...own the tee shirt). You refuse to accept any point I've made. That is not "bickering". That is blind faith (oh oh), on your part...in that you are worse than fundementalist in your beliefs... why? You go after the conservatives as well...bad move.

I'd say I could care less, but that would be a lie. However, what is truth is I can't do a damn thing about your opinion. That's up to God. What I can and did do, is give you pause for thought.

v/r

Q

 

[MindFreak666]

Im not sure what point you've made. You've certainly stated your beliefs but thats all. With no real point to back it up. I've read all you've said and no I don't accept any point you've made because you haven't made one. You've merely asserted the existence of god. No point, no real arguement, just statements.
I don't hold blind faith in anything, I accept what can be verified by personal experience, no faith required. You cling to this "creator", this great being, thoroughly convinced of his existence, and that he is all-knowing and all-powerful and the highest thing there is like a child to their parents but when the child grows up they realise that their parents are not perfect.

 

[Quahom1]

...I don't hold blind faith in anything, I accept what can be verified by personal experience, no faith required. You cling to this "creator", this great being, thoroughly convinced of his existence, and that he is all-knowing and all-powerful and the highest thing there is like a child to their parents...

I hold these truths to be self evident, that there is God, that He is a merciful God, that we were created to fellowship with Him, that we are made in His likeness and image, that His patients is slow to burn, and His mercy is quickly met out, and that above all, He loves His Creation, and we are the crown of said creation.

The "evidence" of the hand of God can be found in a blade of grass, in the symetry of a solar system or galaxy, within the nucleas of a single cell, or the heart of the sun's nuclear fire. It is expressed in the actions of a good friend, and the eyes of a new born or old man at peace. It is felt by a touch, or the rustle of a breeze, or an unbidden thought that makes one laugh with delight.

I am reminded of a song by the Beatles..."Fool on the hill" (I believe is the title). I am quite happy to be that fool, for the eyes in my head, see the world spinning 'round...

The "fact" that you observe my faith akin to the wonder of a child, was such a pleasant shock to me that I must thank you for pointing it out. You see, the bible says that to entire the kingdom of heaven, one must have the wonder of a child.

I too can accept what is verified by my personal experience, and you're correct; no faith required. The knowledge supercedes faith. So, apparently we are not that unalike.

When I was a younger man, I too held God suspect. But one day, in an act of compulsion, I asked a question out loud to no one in particular, because I didn't think the one the question was addressed to, was there to hear it.

"If you exist God, you're going to have to show me..."

He's been showing me ever since...

v/r

Q

 

[MindFreak666]

I am quite happy to be that fool

I see no evidence of a creator in a blade of grass, i evidence of a blade of grass.

 

[Quahom1]

I see no evidence of a creator in a blade of grass, i evidence of a blade of grass.

Try looking into the blade of grass (into the elemental make up of the blade of grass)...you might be surprised at what you find...

 

[juantoo3]

However, Physics does tell us in no uncertain terms, that without guidance, the universe is want for entropy. Man, (and life at large), appears to counter that entropy affect.

We stir the "pot" (all life does).

I know this for fact as well. I am an energy being, housed in a slower energy body. I know that energy can not be created nor destroyed...only changed. There will be a time when my body can not sustain my energetic self. But when that time comes my energetic self will not evaporate into the cosmos. If nothing else, my essence will go on and on and on into that which is the cosmos.

However, I think someone bigger than me, has a better plan. And that someone wants me collectively whole in spirit, instead of dissapated throughout the universe(s).

And it all begins here, in this corporial world. Guess we're going through training, for the bigger role we are to play in LIFE...

Very well said, Q!

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Mindfreak!

"I think something bigger than me has a better plan" (-Q)

You are taking your own power away, underestimating your own potential. Because you are confused and as most people clueless about greater reality you need to hope that somewhere someone is in control. But we can all develop our minds, our consciousness, and learn all the answers for ourselves.

Your belief holds FALSE hope, mine teaches that we have incredible power within ourselves and that we don't need to rely on anything outside of ourselves, liberation is within us. The ability to reach a higher existence and leave this one which is full of negativity and delusion. We just need to follow the right steps and put forth the necessary effort. Theres no need to wait around for some imaginary being to do something for us.

What is false? That there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end is contrary to the Tao? It seems to me a great deal of effort has been put forth across centuries by countless sages and sincere individuals in trying to show people what is in essence invisible, yet intuitively obvious. That effort has been spent in teaching people to go with the flow of reality, rather than exhausting themselves trying to swim against the current. People being people, most of us look for the loopholes to justify our desires. But in the end when those desires are contrary to the way they come to naught. It might be called sin, it might be called negative karma, it might be called by any number of names; the principle remains.

Buddha worked miracles, no? As did Jesus, and a list of Old Testament prophets. No less, Jesus taught that if we were to align ourselves closely enough with the Eternal way, that we too could work miracles. How much greater power can one give another? He presented us with a recipe to overcome death of the soul, hell if you prefer. Did not the Buddha do the same for his followers? I hardly see Christianity as false, confused or clueless.

I agree that we need to look for each other. Not because some being wants us to or will punish us if we dont, or will reward us if we do. But because it is what is right. Because we are all in the same boat here. Buddhism does teach compassion and kindness and morality. These are the preliminary steps of the path.

I agree. And I learned from the teachings of Jesus and Christianity. And while these steps may be preliminary, they are the crucial foundation without which nothing else taught will stand.

 

[Quahom1]

Very well said, Q!

Not too boot campish eh?

Ok.

I do believe this is the truth, with all my being. It's the boiled down, stripped to raw, matter of fact, ain't no other option, strike me blind if I'm fibbing...truth of life....


Wow, only took me four years to accept and express it. See? CR is a tool!

lol

Thanks Juan.

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by MindFreak666
"I think something bigger than me has a better plan" (-Q)

You are taking your own power away, underestimating your own potential. Because you are confused and as most people clueless about greater reality you need to hope that somewhere someone is in control. But we can all develop our minds, our consciousness, and learn all the answers for ourselves.

Your belief holds FALSE hope, mine teaches that we have incredible power within ourselves and that we don't need to rely on anything outside of ourselves, liberation is within us. The ability to reach a higher existence and leave this one which is full of negativity and delusion. We just need to follow the right steps and put forth the necessary effort. Theres no need to wait around for some imaginary being to do something for us.

I understand this Mindfreak. As big and as bad as one thinks they are...there is always someone bigger and badder. So, at some point in my life I asked if there is a God, that He be the biggest and "baddest" in the corner of my life. Haven't been dissappointed since.

False hope, is hope unrequited. I am looking around me and I see nothing fake or false concerning what God has done for me.

Here is how I see it. You and me are in a boxing ring. We have the high belt shorts on, and the sixteen ounce gloves, and the helmets and face guards. But everytime we start to step middle ring, the match is halted because I'm not playing by your rules...

But I am! Even though you stepped into my world (which you do not believe in -Christianity), I still adhere to the rules you set up, but you keep backing down...that I do not understand.

Face it. Christianity is something you can't seem to fathom, unless you decide to become one. Or at least try to understand one (like Mahatma Ghandi).

Now Ghandi and me...that would have been a good box. He probably would have kicked my butt in the long run.

Go ahead, step in the ring. Let's debate this issue. Only, I have terms too.

v/r

Q

 

[MindFreak666]

Q, I don't see what you mean by you're not playing by my rules. What rules are those?
I simply made the arguement that the idea of a creator is just a concept created by the mind due to the linear nature of our lives and that since most people don't have the answers to our existence they need to believe that someone else is in control, ie god.
You counter that by telling me to look at a piece of grass.
I am able to fathom Christianity I am merely pointing out the flaws in the idea of a creator, and that since I see no reason to believe in such a being and I see no evidence of such a being, I am not going to just assume there is such a being and give him any sort of devotion. Believing something just because someone else asserts it, without anything to back it up, doesnt make sense.
You have terms, great. What are they? Please let me know because I get the feeling your terms start with the assumption of a creator.
I was just hoping you would offer an arguement or something in support of the existence of a creator, and you seem to dodge it. You just keep stating that you believe in a creator.

Ok how about this, I will just ask a question.
You said that you see evidence of a creator in a blade of grass, in the solar system, galaxies, the actions of a good friend, etc.
Could you maybe explain this a little better, what it is about these things that shows you evidence of a creator.

 

[Snoopy]

Comment from over the wall: I’m sure I’ve wandered into various gardens and kicked over a pot plant occasionally, but I wonder if Bruce Michael wanted this to be a Christian faith board topic or one for the Comparative Studies or Belief & Spirituality boards, as per the CoC? Anyway, just popping another box of popcorn into the microwave (I know dondi said that somewhere and it made me laugh)

s.