God's word can not come back void Dave. So the test is only one way. Sometimes patience is in order though to see results, especially in this instant gratification world.
God's word can not come back void Dave. So the test is only one way. Sometimes patience is in order though to see results, especially in this instant gratification world.
what, are you "skychic" or something?
Both boys are home from the war, so I'm good. Thanks.
17th Angel
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what, are you "skychic" or something?
Both boys are home from the war, so I'm good. Thanks.
Yeah suprised me too... I never saw it coming.
Family is good....
Hope you are all having some good times... lol... I was kinda ..messing with you... Of course I think my posts are funny... I wet myself laughing at how funny and amazing I am.... Shucks...
Silent Dave
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You are not. As I've said, my position is that I have been respectful and have not been bashing Christians, and it is my intention to continue as I have been doing, should I be permitted to continue posting in this forum. As moderator of this forum, do you so permit me? Yes or no?
17th Angel
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To get respect you have to give....... ?
BlaznFattyz
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you all know god created people
if god is perfect why are we not perfect.
wait we are?... or we are not? are you saying god is not perfect now?
so he just made us to condemn us?
what?
so he created flawed beings being he is flawed?
hell in eternity?
god is love only right?
did you ask god this?
how did you know he spoke to you, did you run some kind of test?
respect? what?
i should stay?
i should go?
can i post still?
i cant post?
obviously i love listening to myself ask the same questions over and over and over again...
now im bored.
if god is perfect why are we not perfect.
wait we are?... or we are not? are you saying god is not perfect now?
so he just made us to condemn us?
what?
so he created flawed beings being he is flawed?
hell in eternity?
god is love only right?
did you ask god this?
how did you know he spoke to you, did you run some kind of test?
respect? what?
i should stay?
i should go?
can i post still?
i cant post?
obviously i love listening to myself ask the same questions over and over and over again...
now im bored.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Greetings, Dave.
I noticed by looking at the panel on the left that you're a new member. Welcome to CR!!!
After a while you'll get used to CR, the way people see things, and perhaps even notice that we don't all believe the same thing or see things the same way. Yet many of us identify with the label of "Christian."Post #109 is my observation and analysis of what's been happening with Christianity.
Creeds and doctrines taught by the various denominations in Christianity often put many limits and boundaries on the notions and concepts of "hell," "Christian," "heaven" and "God." Rules are made on what people are to believe to give them a sense of comfort in that they are "in the safe zone."
This is what causes much of the disgust over Christianity and the New Testament. The people who can't follow the rules are sent to hell because they're heretics. The rest God accepts.
This obviously doesn't sound very just. Some of the people who are able to follow the rules might be really rule, arrogant, conceited people. Some of the ones who can't follow the rules, on the other hand, are really decent, polite, loving, kind and generous people. So God throws away nice, dignified, innocent people who couldn't follow the doctrinal rules taught by the different denominations.
Much of the time, we don't think that the stuff we're being told to believe are rules. But that's what they are -- rules. You have to believe what you're told, because otherwise you're denying the truth. Besides, that's what everyone else in the church does.
The thing is, it's one thing to believe something because that's what you were told, because that's what the pastor or priest said, and to appreciate why you do it.
There is a difference between doctrine-based beliefs and experiental beliefs. Doctrine-based beliefs have to do with traditions -- they're basically what I described above -- you believe what you are told. Experiental beliefs -- obviously derive from your life experiences. You believe in something because you've worked out for yourself that that is the way it was meant to be. My personal view is that if you really want to adhere to tradition, it is important to have some affirmative experiences associated with those traditions -- experiences that are compelling reasons to believe in them.
Beliefs have to be experientally affirmative, not drilled into our minds without a reason with which we can identify -- indoctrinated.
Christianity is not limited to traditions. Traditions are just a starting point. People often learn about Christianity from their Christian friends, and whatever notion or concept they have of Christianity is limited to what their Christian friends tell them. Whatever notion you have of Christianity is then limited to the church you go to. If your first experiences are bad, you might then decide it's not for you.
If having a Christian identity is important to you, then search high and low. I assure you, there is more out there. Read a lot of books. Raid the church library. Surf the Internet. Discover the "Christian" in you. It all depends whether or not you want to be Christian. Just like Jews, Christians don't like it when their religion isn't taken seriously. It's seen as disrespect. They take it personally.
BlaznFattyz
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i dont know about all that. christians don't culturally or traditionally own their religion, its really not even a religion some may say, rather a personal relationship with god, which i also subscribe to. so if you take god seriously then you will want to pray to him and do the things he asks of you. not wanting a relationship with god is not hurting christianity, but going against god and his son. christians come from all walks of life; poor, rich, jews, latins, anglos, africans, etc. what we all have in common is that we are saved by the blood of christ and we know with him there is eternal life--it is that we wish to share. just like with your children or friends, if you know that drinking and driving is bad, you will warn them about it, or if you tell someone its not good to be angry all the time and dont start fights because something bad may happen one day, its because you know better and wish to spread that info to others--this is done out of brotherly love. for those that wish to listen to it and believe--that is called wisdom. i have never heard of any christians looking at it as disrespect, but rather sadness that the lifeline you are trying to throw to a drowning victim and they didnt take it, well that is rather sad. god uses christians and the church through which the holy spirit works through to spread the gospel and continue the work of christ; feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, curing the ill, teaching about jesus. so as we christians are moved by the spirit to share and to care for others, it is done with a humble heart, not doing it to make ourselves greater from which ego and respect comes from, but for the glory of god.
But we don't think we're drowning (or should I say we *know* we're not drowning), and for some people the fact that a lifeline keeps slapping them round the head is just plain annoying.
That's an interesting point Saltmeister and I think it illustrates why just quoting the doctrine at people will not convert them. They have to have some sort of experience to take them across the belief/unbelief line.
For me, the question has been answered, now I understand the answer to the question from a Christian perspective. I don't believe it, but I get it. If we can't understand belief (or disbelief) without believing it ourselves then there is no point to a forum like this.
(On a side note - I felt that the moderating on this thread was heavy handed. It almost made me abandon the forum.)
BlaznFattyz
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grownup: make sure you do this or it wont work.
child: ya i know.
grownup: did you do what i told you.
child: ya i heard you already.
the child didnt understand the importance, just mouthed they knew everything, and never took the advice.
so, yeah, i totally understand what you are saying.
Pico
Well-Known Member
Check this out:
That is a reason some people don't believe and are punished.
John 3:18-21 said:
That is a reason some people don't believe and are punished.
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Oh right so long as you believe in him you can steal, murder, rape children, molest animals and escape judgement. But to have your own mind, to be open to the question, to constantly seek not just for yourself but for mankind means you are evil.
What utter c**p.
Tao
BlaznFattyz
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if you believe in god, and love him and his word, then you will want to follow him and do what is holy and righteous, and when you fall short, jesus can forgive you and give you peace if you sincerely ask. anything else is false. the disturbingly nonsensical logic of open mind = evil is silly.
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
The disturbingly nonsensical logic of open mind!?!?!?!??????
I am flabbergasted, astounded, amazed and ultimately saddened to ever read such a line. You can delegate your rational to dogma. I never will and I'll take my chances before the almighty clear of conscience and responsible in myself for my every word and action. Without the get-out clause of "but I believed in you".
Truly that is just the most breathtaking complacency and dereliction of personal responsibility. You really think God would respect that? No God I could respect would.
Tao
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
I agree that's true in theory, but that's not what Christians do in practice. We all want to know that somehow we're in the safe zone, but if we defined our religion too vaguely or if it was too abstract, it might include people who do not uphold he same concepts as us, do not think as we do, or do not have our history or "roots." There would otherwise be no meaningful difference between us and them.
So we define a set of rules to identify ourselves as different to those who do not have our history, do not have our "roots," do not value, love or adore what we value, love or adore. We give ourselves reasons to value the concepts that we hold dear, reasons that ultimately mean that we have and possess something that others do not possess.
We behave as if we owned it and had it.
I've come across a multitude of Christian web sites and literature where it seems like the main point is to show how the "Christian" as defined by the web site or literature possesses something that everyone else lacks. It makes it sound like the reason why you have to be Christian is because Christians have something that everyone else is missing.
I personally don't believe that is why people should belong to a "church." It's the other way round!!! A person is Christian because he is "lacking." He goes to church for fulfillment of his personal needs. Everyone else, those outside the church have figured it out. Christians are not the ones who "have it." No, they are the ones who "don't have it and need it." The real "Christian" is a person who is missing something that everybody else has already got. We're people with special needs, not providers of needs.
Church is a Sanctuary, a refuge, a safe haven, a place for reflection, reformation and regeneration when life goes sour. We go to churches because we were in hell and we needed a Sanctuary.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
That's an interesting point Saltmeister and I think it illustrates why just quoting the doctrine at people will not convert them. They have to have some sort of experience to take them across the belief/unbelief line.
For me, the question has been answered, now I understand the answer to the question from a Christian perspective. I don't believe it, but I get it. If we can't understand belief (or disbelief) without believing it ourselves then there is no point to a forum like this.
Being an "insider" from childhood, I've seen approaches to Christianity from the "childish" through the "adolescent/teenager" to the adult level.
I think I've gradually grown out of the idea of thinking everyone has the same need that I have, or that I have some "philosophy" or "creed" that they don't have that will somehow make them a "whole person" -- telling people they have needs they don't have. Everyone must discover their own needs and find ways to address them. I became a little more convinced of this when I had personal life experiences where I did indeed, sense that I had particular needs, and that Christianity had a kind of relevance that didn't have much to do with the "classical" or "conventional" way of seeing it. As a result, I don't see Christianity quite the same way as I was taught.
Those experiences took me in a different direction to common doctrine and tradition. It actually felt like a kind of liberation from doctrine and tradition, as if somehow I didn't need doctrines and traditions anymore. I could use my personal experiences as substitute. What I see now is a gradual replacement of doctrine with experiences -- a journey where doctrine (belief in what I see as "right," or philosophy and creeds) is replaced by faith (belief in what I see as "true").
My experiences would serve almost exactly the same function as the doctrines I was taught, but in a more natural way. It's a bit like replacing artificial, synthetic limbs with natural ones. You start from living, breathing and thinking like a robot, a drone, to a fully human person.
Ok, you might not want to do that to yourself, but I find it quite thrilling to have gone through a process/experience where I was "mentally confined" to being "more liberated and natural." I must say I feel more like . . . a real person . . . than I did one or two years ago.
If you want to become a Christian . . . beware -- you will be turned into a "mentally confined robot" before you know it. You lose your innocence and spontaneity -- until you realise why you lost it -- and find a way to regain it -- and recover -- like I did.
If you become a Christian, but are not turned into a "mentally confined robot," it means you already had a lot of innocence and spontaneity to begin with. That would say a lot about you as a person. It means you have a strong personality. (or maybe it means you're a witch.)But be warned . . . it's a dangerous experiment that has destroyed many people. Only try it if you are bold and daring. Mwhahahahahahaha.
(I think Dave was largely misunderstood. I think at the time there wasn't much of a balancing influence in the thread, not enough variety of ideas being tossed around. It was mostly just him and Pico. The discussion at the time wasn't going too well. Things might be different now.)
Dondi
Well-Known Member
The secret to following doctrine is not to become "mentally confined robots", but rather to exercise our life in the manner of the alternative. It is sorta like compelling someone who never rode a rollercoaster to try it:
"Come'on, let's go on it"
"No, I'm too scared"
"Aww now, you don't have anything to worry about. It's fun."
"NO, I don't want to go on it, I said!"
"But you don't know what you're missing!"
"You sure it's safe?"
"Yeah"
"Well, ok. I'll try it once"
Later:
"Wow! That was great!! Let's do it again!"
You take doctrine as a guide. The reason that there are Ten Commandments and not Ten Suggestions is that most people wouldn't be inclined to follow suggestions. The weight of a suggestion carries little. But once you discover that "Hey, I get it now", it no longer becomes just a commandment, but part of your life.
17th Angel
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Dondi
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Never said there wasn't any risk. But statistically speaking, the ride is relatively safe.
ETA: Also, I would think that after two hours on the rollercoaster, the thrill would diminish somewhat, wouldn't you? Time to try a different ride.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Let me ask.. is it the concept of grace you have issue with? Or that we are justified by our faith? You know.. that means just as if we have never sinned?
When someone grasps that entire concept... they want to please God and even more so Christ in us is what changes us... not anything that WE do. We can do nothing of ourselves its Christ IN us that all is made new.