Changing Sexual Orientation Is Possible, New Research Says

Then you are lucky to live where you do. In most of the United States, whenever conservative Christians talk about homosexuality, they always compare it to pedophilia (sometimes they then move on to compare it to bestiality; I suppose I should be grateful the Christians on this board haven't gone there).
 
Maybe it's the conservativism. I talk to Christians from all over the nation (and world, at times) but I'm really liberal. I dislike the term liberal, since in some ways I believe I am more conservative to the original message of the Gospels, but that is what people label me as (and others like me). Most of us "liberal" Christians don't consider homosexuality much of an issue at all, and are informed enough about sexuality to know that it is a different behavior and impulse than pedophilia and bestiality.

If I were to take the position that homosexuality is wrong/sinful, I would compare it more closely to adultery than to pedophilia or bestiality, since both homosexuality and adultery are typically defined as consensual and between adults. Both are illicit in the Bible (though much more is said about adultery than homosexuality), but neither are forcing anything on a being with less power, as would be the case with pedophilia, bestiality, rape, and incest (if between older/younger, which is often the case).
 
I'm with path_of_one. Coming from a conservative church, I can assure you that what I hear preached there is a difference. I believe that most of the members of my church would recognize the distinction between homosexuality and pedophilia, though we might view both as sinful behavior.
 
Quahom1 said:
Christians simply don't except either as a behavior rationale, or moral.

You ain't gonna change that, no matter how much you complain. That is just life.
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In this walk on this earth for me the majority of homosexuals I have met are church going folks. In San Francisco, Key West, and Providence you'll find Christian church pews with many homosexuals. It appears as time goes on we are finding more mainstream Christian Churches in any large urban area that are more accepting of homosexuals. Accepted in church, accepted on boards, accepted from the pulpit. Without complaint the change is happening. Slow perhaps, we must remember Sunday is still also the most segregated day of the week. Our affinity to gathering with our own kind has not wained much in the 150 years since the war or 50 years since civil rights.
I don't see pedophilia as having anything to do with homosexuality.
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While there is no way I would characterize every homosexual as a pedophile or worry that they are such, it appears to me there does exist a link. I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first) but denying such doesn't seem to me to help the cause. As with anything open discussion and laying all cards on the table increases awareness and understanding allowing folks to move forward or off of positions which hinder growth.
 
Greetings!

I can see (in most cases) Indeed a connection between the two...... Obviously the act of homosexuality should be considered a sinful act... But, it is a mistake aye? Specially when this sin isn't intended to be seen as wrong... By nature we are not this way.... (raises his riot shield before the onslaught)

Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!" (26:165-166). (I know that isn't from the bible, but I am -quite- sure it will be pretty much the same lines...)

The critical area would be the enviorment and surroundings that change the view of the man who becomes homosexual, so I would say... Yeah perhaps if a homosexual was placed into a different setting and surrounding... JUST maybe... They would be different... If you think it is a choice like any other choice... And unless you have damage to the head, you -can- control and dismiss/accept the thoughts that enter your mind... So to that point, I think it is a sin and a simple mistake, but I believe if you are going to become religious be it christian or be it anything else, if within their laws and rules it says this is sin, and this is wrong.... How more black and white can that be? Surley you should abide by your gods law or just give up... You in the end are the one whom shall choose... If you choose to use drugs, choose to break the law, choose to be homosexual, choose to be whatever.... It is your choice, you have made your bed and you alone shall lay in it.... So your choice makes you, you.... I know there are those that say they can't help it, I am sorry, I seriously am, but I cannot believe they have no control.... Any can choose not to be homosexual... I believe if they are men of one of the said religions that frown upon it, maybe they should gather self control/respect.... Then again others can't make that decision for any, free will.... And all of that.... And if a man isn't a man of a religion but is still gay, then again his choice, and he has nothing to "hide"? from?

But for those that do turn to religion, they must accept what they do isn't right, they do not make the rules, they live and abide by them... That's what sets them apart... And for those around them, they should help and encourage.... And be a shoulder of strength and support... And aid their brother/sister to getting where they wish to be.... But, there is no middle ground with the law of God... Some think there is.... That is why there are so many confused factions and so on in religion...

maca salāma
 
I am curious to know what the link between homosexuality and pedophilia is. While I acknowledge there have been such links in certain cultural practices, predominantly between older men and younger boys, the same has existed in even more frequency in time between older men and younger girls. I haven't seen much of this tendency in older women and younger girls. So perhaps it is more of a link of pedophilia to male sexuality in general than to homosexuality.

17th... while I acknowledge the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, isn't it a little hypocritical for it to be such a big issue in the church, when the Bible also gives hundreds of other commandments that people don't even bother to talk about these days? What makes homosexuality more of an issue for everyone than blatant consumerism and acceptance of poverty (certainly a far more discussed and condemned issue in both the OT and NT)? Why is it that homosexuals are consistently picked on so much more than other sinners? I think that's what I was getting at in my first post. In a most un-Christian like way, they are singled out more than others because they are a minority and make us all feel more self-righteous for avoiding such behavior, rather than having us all bother to look at the planks in our own eye first.

It is much more prevalent in the Bible to condemn divorce and adultery, but most churches, even conservative ones, accept divorce and forgive adultery, far far easier than homosexuality, despite its relatively low rate of being mentioned in the Bible. This is what makes me frustrated- the hypocrisy of it all. If people are going to follow the Bible's rules to the letter and judge others by them, fine. But no one does this. Most people don't even logically try to hit the "big rules" by analyzing how frequently something is condemned.

As for homosexuality being a choice... the behavior is a choice, but the attraction is not. The problem is that in our society, we have no separate word for the attraction vs. the behavior, so it gets confusing to use the same word to mean both things. Most people wouldn't hesitate to admit that they are attracted to other people, whether or not they should be. Obviously, for example, heterosexual marriages have this issue where most of the time attraction to others doesn't stop when you are married. You are to control your behavior, but you can't help it if you are attracted to someone for a moment before you correct your thought process.

Now, Jesus actually didn't say anything (to the best of my knowledge) about homosexuality, but he did make it clear that adultery in one's thoughts/emotions was equivalent to adultery in action. This is a real problem for me and probably anyone who has a relatively healthy sex drive. It is very difficult to control your thoughts and emotions; you must recognize them first to control them, and then you've already sinned. It's a bit of a tangent, but follow my stream of consciousness here... doesn't that make ALL of us (except asexual people) guilty of illicit sex? Whether homosexual or heterosexual, we all face being attracted to others before we catch ourselves and correct our thoughts. And this isn't fixed by covering women up or segregating the sexes, either-- if anything, the more something is put off limits, the more most people are attracted to it.

So, I guess my point is, according to Christ's message, we are all in trouble. If a person has ever thought about having sex with someone to whom they are not married or someone of the same sex, they've sinned according to the Bible. Since this encompasses practically everyone, I say we move forward on things we can fix socially (like poverty) and quit obsessing over other people's sex lives.

The homosexual who routinely sins is no different from the rest of us who routinely sins. In fact, it doesn't entirely matter whether or not homosexuality is a sin. It is guaranteed that all people are sinning no matter what their sexual orientation, so perhaps we ought to just focus on sin in general and practices that help people grow closer to God and hopefully sin less as the result of hearing (and obeying) God's voice in their lives more frequently, and leave the judgment out of the picture.

Fortunately, there is an answer to the problem of sin. Grace. We do the best we can to please God because we love Him. He covers our mistakes because He loves us.
 
Hi Path...Excellent post.

Yes we have all sinned in our hearts, and will continue to do so because we are all part of a larger natural system of life, and we are hard-wired to do so over and over depending upon our inheritances and social situations..

But labelling and/or punishing people due to their sexual desires and "immoral" misbehaviors is clearly not going to solve "the" problem. I believe that we, as a species, are all part of a larger whole which functions quite well based upon a few natural laws which are implicit and not explicit. But because we are endowed with the ability to plan, think, and act we are somehow expected to deny our feelings and emotions when it comes to satisfying one of our most basic life motivations.

Of course it could be argued that was why religions and laws were invented to keep our more animalistic tendencies more constrained for the good of the "social order". What's really needed is a look at the wholistic aspects of what is going on and why we are doing what we are doing as "creative, moral and law abiding creatures".

I'd like to have a discussion with Sen Craig about all of this, but I doubt that he'd grant me an audience.

In the meantime here's how some of our antelope brothers and sisters have evolved to promote their species' continuance and to maintain gender and social balances within their herds.

flow....;)

Sex Role Reversals Common in Wild Kingdom | LiveScience
 
Quite the stories flow,

Homosexual Animals Out of the Closet | LiveScience

It just ain't natural, is what folks used to say. You don't see it in the animal kingdom, they touted. Now it will be, "Well we ain't animals"

My sister is a librarian, they've had a book for a few years about two male penguins at a NY zoo that hatched and raised a young penguin. Two calls to have it removed from the shelves in the past week.
"You can make up all kinds of stories: Oh it's for dominance, it's for this, it's for that, but when it comes down to the bottom I think it's just for sexual pleasure," Wolfe told LiveScience.
Top 10 Gay Animals

Conversely, some argue that homosexual sex could have a bigger natural cause than just pure ecstasy: namely evolutionary benefits.
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This explains all the gay catholic preists who get caught fondling little boys & the gay christian preachers who cheat on their wives while in bed with another man.

Oh by the way, my old boss was jewish & his jewish wife was gay. He told me so & that is why they divorced because she wanted to be with a woman and was with a woman during their marriage.

So what about the gay Christian KKK? Is no one in the KKK gay gay gay? or do they just kill them if they are, like in the muslim religion.
 
Wil: "While there is no way I would characterize every homosexual as a pedophile or worry that they are such, it appears to me there does exist a link. I could be wrong..."
You are completely wrong. There are the "obligate pedophiles" (those with no other sexuality at all), who have no gender-orientation but are attracted only to children without distinction (typically, these are psychopathic, that is, unable to perceive other people as "real" but only as playthings). And then there are pedophiles who also have relationships with adults: well over 99% percent of these are heterosexual, typically married. Pedophiles who are also homosexuals are, though not completely non-existent, too small of a fraction of a percent to accurately measure. The opposite impression is widespread, since Christians have gone out of their way to propagate it, but what the actual research shows is as I have said.
Now, there is an association between homosexuality and what is sometimes called "ephebophilia", attraction to teenagers among those considerably older: while there are certainly lots of heterosexuals who find "jail-bait" a turnon, it appears to be more common among homosexuals. This of course should be discouraged, as tending to inappropriately exploitative relationships; but it is not the same as molestation of pre-pubertal children.

17: "Obviously the act of homosexuality should be considered a sinful act"
OBVIOUSLY, huh??? The Christians at least *pretend* to have a reason for being against me, but you just take it as a given?

"By nature we are not this way.... (raises his riot shield before the onslaught) "
By nature YOU are not that way, but *I* am.

"The critical area would be the enviorment and surroundings that change the view of the man who becomes homosexual"
My view has never changed in any way.

"If you choose to use drugs, choose to break the law, choose to be homosexual, choose to be whatever.... "
There is no such thing as "choosing" to be homosexual.

"I know there are those that say they can't help it, I am sorry, I seriously am, but I cannot believe they have no control.... Any can choose not to be homosexual... "
No, I cannot "choose" to be hetero from now on anymore than you could "choose" to be homo. You could of course choose to try doing it with a guy: but you would feel creepy about it, and not at all like being with him for the rest of your life-- just like I felt when I've tried it with women. If it just isn't in your nature, it isn't. I didn't get to pick my sexuality any more than I got to pick my height or my eye color.
 
path_of_one said:
I am confused. As far as I know, you brought up pedophilia. I don't see pedophilia as having anything to do with homosexuality. But I figured I'd respond to the tangent you brought up. Maybe someone else brought it up in the 11 pages I failed to read? Dunno. :confused:
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Wrong thread!!!:) This isn't the 11-page thread where the discussion took place on homosexuality. It actually went on in the "As a Christian what are your thoughts?" thread. I made a suggestion to Brian to have the posts moved here, but I guess the request wasn't heard. Furthermore it has had so much history now I'm so not whether there is any point.

I think the discussion was happening even before it came to the Christianity forum. I recall just recently getting a glimpse of a conversation between Juantoo and Bob in another forum. I didn't investigate, although I believe I did see some mention of the topic we're discussing now. Just thought I might mention that because it appeared that there was already some history between Juantoo and Bob even before the discussion came here.
 
No, that started on THIS thread, page 2, where Juantoo decided (at that time he was arguing with the late AndrewX) that pedophilia, of course, is the first analogy to reach for:
"What we have here is a clash of opinions. One side is of the opinion that the homosexual lifestyle is inappropriate, the other side is of the opinion that they wish to perpetuate their personal preference.
Allow us to reframe the situation a bit to better face the issues...is the same "tolerance" to be extended to paedophiles? "
MadeInRussia decided pedophilia was the proper analogy over on another thread, "As a Christian what are your thoughts?", also on this board. Then Juantoo decided to bring it back up, most recently.
 
bob x said:
No, I cannot "choose" to be hetero from now on anymore than you could "choose" to be homo. You could of course choose to try doing it with a guy: but you would feel creepy about it, and not at all like being with him for the rest of your life-- just like I felt when I've tried it with women. If it just isn't in your nature, it isn't. I didn't get to pick my sexuality any more than I got to pick my height or my eye color.
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Some people say that people choose to be gay, which implies straight people choose to be straight instead of gay. This implies that all people at some point toss it around in their heads to become straight or gay. This leaves the straight people choosing and thinking about if they should be straight over their other choice to be gay.

I am a straight male & have always been straight & did not choose to be attracted to women. It was always that way. Being with a man is disgusting to me so of course I would never choose to sleep with a man. I would think it is the same with gay people and they also do not choose. There is way more to it than just a choice that people toss around in their heads as in taking a drink of water or should I have milk.

After following a lot of facts in science, talking with a few gay people about it, I do believe that science is on the edge of proving religion is once again wrong. The ones who say people 'choose' have no facts to back them & are talking out their butts, and again oscilatiing back & forth , I said before implies that they themselves made a choice & had to think about being with the same or opposite gender & which they like better...and that is not how it was/is for me being a male attracted to females.

It sure does not leave much room for the few who are born with (who God made) to have both organs to make a choice.

I believe you Bobx.
 
My mind is so torn on this issue. All I keep thinking about is sexual arousal.

I would imagine that a gay man would not get sexually aroused if a prety naked woman stood in front of him but if a good looking man did then I imagine he would become aroused. If that is right then how could someone choose to change that?

We are all adults and surely therefore all know that there are times a visual image or even a sound or momentory thought can make us aroused at inappropriate moments, so surely that is not a mental process where we think I want to be aroused by something. Is it not automatic?

I believe sexuality can be suppressed, as people chose to be celibate but surely that would just mean a hetrosexual or a homosexual is celibate, not that their sexuality has changed?

I still don't understand the attraction for gay people but then I am not gay, so obviouslI wouldn't.
 
Muslimwoman said:
I believe sexuality can be suppressed, as people chose to be celibate but surely that would just mean a hetrosexual or a homosexual is celibate, not that their sexuality has changed?
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This is what I was trying to say (much less eloquently ;)) above. We can choose what we do with our actions as a result of arousal, but arousal happens before we can even acknowledge it intellectually.

It makes no sense to me to argue that a gay person should stop being gay. If they are aroused by members of the same sex, that's what happens and it isn't a choice. As Bandit points out, science points to this being hard-wired.

However, it is worth noting that human sexuality is plastic. That is, cultures can (and have) made homosexuality the norm, and then the majority of people did have homosexual relationships. So it is not clearly a situation of social environment having nothing to do with sexuality. Clearly, it is both innate in some individuals to be homosexual and possible to be culturally taught in most individuals. Many surveys, starting with the Kiersey studies (did I get his name right?) in the 1950s, have found that it was very common for both men and women to have at least one homosexual experience in their lifetime. Most men and women were mostly heterosexual but still occasionally attracted to members of the same sex in certain situations (that isn't the same thing as being bisexual, by the way, but does point toward the ambiguity of normal human sexuality).

And Bandit has a definite other point-- what about hermaphrodites and people whose hormone levels do not match their sex (i.e., biologically female but with high testosterone)? These folks are entirely ignored by Christianity and all either/or gender and sexuality systems. In reality, humans don't come in only two genders and they don't appear to come in only two sexualities either. How can we blame someone for something they did not choose? If a child is born a hermaphrodite, for example, or with secondary sexual characteristics (breasts, body fat distribution, hormones, etc.) that are ambiguous, how can we justifiably force them into categories where they clearly do not fit?
 
Bandit said:
So what about the gay Christian KKK? Is no one in the KKK gay gay gay? or do they just kill them if they are, like in the muslim religion.
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Come again?

I like how you go on about the christians and all that... Then compare ALL Muslims to the freaking KKK... Such.... "accuracy".... Puh-lease....
 
17th Angel said:
Come again?

I like how you go on about the christians and all that... Then compare ALL Muslims to the freaking KKK... Such.... "accuracy".... Puh-lease....
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me thinks you may be reading more into the words than bandit implied.

CR is the only place I am appreciative of when the bandit stops by!

Anywho a very salient point came up here.

Through this conversation I suddenly recalled more than one gay person tell me they were repulsed by the thought of sex with a member of the opposite gender. That naked bodies of the opposite gender were totally unappealing.

I'm unbelievably slow as this is just what Bandit said and what sooo many heteros or homophobes say about homosexuality. And then gay folks get up in arms when it is said!! DUH!!! We both feel the same way! Is that really surprising then?

Last night a guy called in on a talk show, about having been with our good senator from Idaho over twenty years ago. He was 21 at the time, and the now senator then congressman, picked him up, had his way, treated him badly and tossed him on with the admonishment, "this never happened." He never really knew who the guy was until the Minnesota bathroom stall incident. He is telling his story not because Craig isn't out of the closet, but because he sponsors and votes for so many anti gay bills. He said the gay community has many issues, he also mentioned Dahmer as one of the terrible ones. But believes our societies impact against gays has created the venue to create Dahmers and Craigs.

Both sides have some work to be done.
 
I might be... ;) But, I had to say something... If the tables were turned and someone just happened to compare christians to hitler... For example, someone would say something.... So I -just- had to make sure... That this statement isn't a blanket statement.... Because, that would be a lie.
 
17th Angel said:
I might be... ;) But, I had to say something... If the tables were turned and someone just happened to compare christians to hitler... For example, someone would say something.... So I -just- had to make sure... That this statement isn't a blanket statement.... Because, that would be a lie.
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Now what I was referring to is the reference comparing all Muslims to the KKK, I for one feel that analogy could be appropriate for the terrorists who preach a radical Islam that I don't feel is Islam. But as far as homosexuality and Islam, it is my understanding that it was a capitol crime under the taliban and in Saudi Arabia and in many other countries, I don't know if that has changed, but death was not out of the question.

While many folks believe we here in the west are in the dark ages in regards to this subject, in general Islamic countries are decades to centuries behind us (as far as I know)
 
I guess, yes in some places ALIKE in christanity people can be killed and/or punished for being homosexual.... *looks over to the west seeing picket lines and signs saying "god hates f*gs".....* But that is human error.... We take what we want and make the rest up... It says in the Qur'an....

"And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practising abominations. He said: "O my people! Here are my daughters: they ore purer for you (if you marry)! Now fear Allah, and cover me not with shame about my guests! Is there not among you a right-handed man?"

Here notice.... They are trying to help change and support not kill.....
 
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