Changing Sexual Orientation Is Possible, New Research Says

17th Angel said:
I guess, yes in some places ALIKE in christanity people can be killed and/or punished for being homosexual.... *looks over to the west seeing picket lines and signs saying "god hates f*gs".....* But that is human error.... We take what we want and make the rest up... It says in the Qur'an....

"And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practising abominations. He said: "O my people! Here are my daughters: they ore purer for you (if you marry)! Now fear Allah, and cover me not with shame about my guests! Is there not among you a right-handed man?"

Here notice.... They are trying to help change and support not kill.....
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A little bit apples and oranges. In the west there are groups of people who use scripture and justification for their prejudices. In the middle east there exist Islamic governments that are using sharia or similar law to imprison and execute. I could be completely wrong, but again believe it is more important to actually lay all the cards on the table than play word games.
 
I guess it could depend on the situation? Such as is the homosexual married? If so.... Then there is adultery... And the price for this?.... As I am new to the scene... I am asking some Muslims I have befriended on a forum for help understanding..... I'll be back ;)
 
17th Angel said:
Come again?

I like how you go on about the christians and all that... Then compare ALL Muslims to the freaking KKK... Such.... "accuracy".... Puh-lease....
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I didn't put the word all. You put it.

We all know that the word ALL in religion only means all when someone needs it to mean all, then when someone needs the word all to mean only some, the word all means only some.

I feel pretty confident you could go back less than 100 years and apply the word ALL to both religions when it comes to killing gay people. There is also a religious/political system in quite a few Islam nations where you will be tried for being gay and under the religious/political law you or your son or will be executed for being gay. That has nothing to do with the extremists like KKK or Taliban, but is the religious and political law.


They say the majority of media reports suggest the official charges were fabricated to reduce any public sympathy for the youths and that the real reason was the youths' sexual orientation.
Homosexuality is illegal in almost all Muslim countries, and punishable by death in many of them. But gay and human rights groups say Iran's record is particularly shocking, having executed possibly thousands of gay men since the Islamic revolution.
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BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Iran 'must stop youth executions'
 
wil said:
Now what I was referring to is the reference comparing all Muslims to the KKK, I for one feel that analogy could be appropriate for the terrorists who preach a radical Islam that I don't feel is Islam. But as far as homosexuality and Islam, it is my understanding that it was a capitol crime under the taliban and in Saudi Arabia and in many other countries, I don't know if that has changed, but death was not out of the question.

While many folks believe we here in the west are in the dark ages in regards to this subject, in general Islamic countries are decades to centuries behind us (as far as I know)
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Right.
 
17th Angel said:
I guess it could depend on the situation? Such as is the homosexual married? If so.... Then there is adultery... And the price for this?.... As I am new to the scene... I am asking some Muslims I have befriended on a forum for help understanding..... I'll be back ;)
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Gay marriage in Islam? You know it would be interesting to know if there were a sect that has become that tolerant. from yahoo answers...
Should Islamic countries allow gay marriage? at the moment most islamic countries punish gays with death or long prison sentences just for being themselves...shouldn't muslim countries show how tolerant and peaceful islam is and give full human rights to muslim homosexuals? what do you think? any thoughts?

get YOUR facts right buddy!! name ONE arab country where Homosexuality is NOT a crime??

The person above asks which Muslim countries execute homosexuals. They include Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen and Iraq.
In Palestine, gays have been killed by police and mobs and, when arrested for their "crime" have been imprisoned, beaten, and made to stick their heads in buckets of excrement.
Despite legal safeguards, gays in Egypt also face persecution, and under the taliban Afghanistan was also a gay=death society. Like Iraq, its current laws are unclear.

The only reasonable answer to the question is surely "yes."
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Now talk about a leap, here in the states where homosexuality was also a crime not too many decades ago, where we are still denying gay marriages, we think it possible that Saudi would?
 
If the tables were turned and someone just happened to compare christians to hitler...
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Hitler WAS a Christian. Not a very good example of one, to be sure; but most of the "good Germans" that actually carried out his will (Hitler never killed anybody personally, you know) were good Christians too.
 
bob x said:
Hitler WAS a Christian. Not a very good example of one, to be sure; but most of the "good Germans" that actually carried out his will (Hitler never killed anybody personally, you know) were good Christians too.
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Hey what's your definition of a good Christian? Is it how zealous and fanatical a person is? So those who are not zealous and fanatical or sure about what they believe are not good Christians? Those who don't chant slogans and wave banners around, preaching loudly, proclaiming their beliefs boldly and with confidence are not good Christians? Is it those who believe they have a response to everything that happens in the world. They know what to do because they have the Holy Spirit?

There is an etiquette . . .

. . . no, sorry, actually there isn't. That's the problem.

Different factions play by their own rules, their own rules of engagement.
 
bob x said:
Hitler WAS a Christian. Not a very good example of one, to be sure; but most of the "good Germans" that actually carried out his will (Hitler never killed anybody personally, you know) were good Christians too.
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vegetarian as well wasn't he....?
 
Wil,

I have found which, I thought... Like christianity... Islam has been warped... By corruption of man. The hadiths... Many teachings go on these but these are not all of Allah, the Qur'an is Allah's will... Like christians would say the bible is gods will..... Then the hadiths I guess in a way could be seen like the christian dogmatic laws.... I know that isn't exact but this is the best way to describe it.... And so many Muslims now have forgotten the ways and laws of the Qur'an and go on teachings of people that rant and rave what they think not what Allah says. Example.... The Qur'an says to help support and change those of homosexuality... NOW.... Watch this.... YouTube - Homosexuality - Contemporary Issues - Bilal Philips

Different story? I have no audio... So I am not 100% sure on what is said, but I have a rough idea lol.... So Allah says support them... and Dr B Philips here says something quite opposite.... Who should you -really- trust? It is sad because the source of the corruption in Islam isn't outsiders..... It stems from a cluster of Muslims themselves.... However, it was foretold this would happen... That the people of Islam would loose their way and forget their values..... However on a brighter side, it is foretold this will change... And that there is light at the end of this tunnel........

bob x said:
Hitler WAS a Christian. Not a very good example of one, to be sure; but most of the "good Germans" that actually carried out his will (Hitler never killed anybody personally, you know) were good Christians too.
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That is my point! Exactly... You people are taking examples of Muslims which can be seen in comparision to the teachings of the Qur'an as not very good examples... Yet the blinkers are on so you do not see there are -good- muslims... Caring and loving muslims.... They are not all like this.
 
wil said:
Gay marriage in Islam? You know it would be interesting to know if there were a sect that has become that tolerant.
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You missed what I am saying.. No lol Gay marriage shouldn't be tolerated... lol..... What I am saying is if the gay man is married to a woman.... And then goes off with another gay man... That is adultry... :\ Which in most muslim lands is another big no no... Obviously in religion it is, and you can understand why it is... But I mean that is another reason you can be punished by death in some nations and in some nations you are put to death because of the adultery not the homosexuality.....


maca salāma
 
bob x said:
Juantoo brought it up-- again.
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Why, thank you for remembering me! :D Actually, in this instance I didn't, somebody else did and I merely linked to them. I believe my words this time were to the effect of "seems I've heard this argument before." While you may not wish an association be made, the trouble is that the association exists, outside of Christianity within medical science, using *the exact same argument* you have used.

Of course it seems to me that the discussion so far has avoided the slippery slope I pointed to earlier...in that with the "I was made this way" argument there are no bad or good behaviors, there are no saints or villains, there are no angels or devils, all's fair.

I do appreciate Path's marvelous attempt at maintaining a reconciliatory attitude, one I have apparently no eloquence for even though I have said much the same as she *all along* in this discussion.

It still does not abrogate our responsibility for our choices, to act upon or restrain ourselves from our primal nature. Else, free will along with everything that entails (which encompasses the major part of most major faiths) is an illusion, a farce, a conspiracy of subjugation, and nothing more.

I stand by my assertion that our behavior is not genetic...it is epigenetic. There is a difference, and epigenetics can be consciously (deliberately, thoughtfully, willfully) modified. Brainwashing is one example. Hypnosis and meditation, for example to stop smoking, are other examples. A lot has to do with how much we are willing to will ourselves to overcome our primal drives. This is *not* about love, it *is* about responsibility.

Or else, nobody is responsible for their actions...including axe murderers, pedophiles, and war mongers, let alone the stupid kid that walks into a school or shopping center with a gun and opens fire on innocent bystanders. Society cannot judge such as these, they can't help it if they were made to be murderers or otherwise threats to the greater society...

There are serious limits to the excuse of "I was made this way." If a person is capable of independent willful thought, free will trumps this excuse.
 
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Muslimwoman said:
... I would imagine that a gay man would not get sexually aroused if a prety naked woman stood in front of him but if a good looking man did then I imagine he would become aroused. If that is right then how could someone choose to change that? ...

I believe sexuality can be suppressed, as people chose to be celibate but surely that would just mean a hetrosexual or a homosexual is celibate, not that their sexuality has changed?...
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That's very perceptive. You are speaking of what is called "sexual orientation." I usually speak of it much more crudely. A person's sexual orientation is "where his pecker points." And while the pecker can sometimes be "encouraged" to point at a specific person, one's orientation is always "North." So the "choice" is either an active sex life or celibacy, be it heterosexual or homosexual.
 
Actually, in this instance I didn't, somebody else did and I merely linked to them.
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The linkage was entirely your own idea.
with the "I was made this way" argument there are no bad or good behaviors
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Absolutely not. I have my likes and dislikes; I can choose whether or not to act on them; I cannot choose however to be reborn with a different set of likes and dislikes. I tire of explaining this to you, since you do not listen.
In the case of pedophiles, some of them may be re-trainable, but some of them just aren't; telling those that "you can just make up your mind not to feel those urges anymore" is unrealistic. Lifelong confinement may be the only way to deal with them. But in the case of pedophiles, whether they can be handled by changing their minds or only by keeping them locked away from children, we have a moral reason why we insist on not letting them fulfil their urges: because of the harm they do to others. No such moral reason applies in my case. There is no moral reasoning at all, except "Middle Easterners thousands of years ago didn't like it, and they had pretensions to be speaking for God".
 
bob x said:
Hitler WAS a Christian. Not a very good example of one, to be sure; but most of the "good Germans" that actually carried out his will (Hitler never killed anybody personally, you know) were good Christians too.
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Hitler was not Christian, and he had no personal opinion of homosexuality, until he witnessed it first hand, by one of his friend/allies. It sickened him to the point of violent vomitting. After that, he had a revulsion for anything homosexual (he had his "friend" executed, thus eliminating one branch and competition of the facist front, and stepped up front forward with his version). As far as Good Germans carrying out Hitler's will, well truth is it was only six percent of the population conducting 99 percent of the atrocities (while the rest looked the other way, and wished it would all go away).
 
bob x said:
An interesting made-up version of history.
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Oh please, like you know all the answers to all of history...look it up bright eyes. That means research. I'm not going to do it for you... Even the History channel got it partly right, I'm sure you can do better, if it is important to you to prove.
 
Don't you dare try talking down to me. I am sure I have forgotten more history than you have ever heard of. If you are trying to recollect Ernst Rohm, that purge took place after Hitler was already Chancellor and had pushed through the Enabling Act granting him dictatorial powers, not while he was still just one contender within the fascist movement; his motives for purging Rohm had little or nothing to do with Rohm's sexuality, which had been long known; and your little fantasy about Hitler violently vomiting has no connection to reality.
 
bob x said:
Don't you dare try talking down to me. I am sure I have forgotten more history than you have ever heard of. If you are trying to recollect Ernst Rohm, that purge took place after Hitler was already Chancellor and had pushed through the Enabling Act granting him dictatorial powers, not while he was still just one contender within the fascist movement; his motives for purging Rohm had little or nothing to do with Rohm's sexuality, which had been long known; and your little fantasy about Hitler violently vomiting has no connection to reality.
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LOL, you've got to be kidding me...You, know more than me? How dare YOU presume anything sir!

What a joke and a rude child, in a man's body...
 
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