Jury awards father $11M in funeral case

[cyberpi]

How interesting that you think these returning soldiers deserved more respect and yet a young man that died for your democracy deserves less respect. Perhaps you think only the living deserve respect?

I think the US military members appreciate the words of respect you have for the job they have done in Iraq and Afghanistan in helping condemn and remove some regimes by force. The nature of your respect is interesting and I am happy that you disagree with the WBC and think instead that the dead soldier did good for the cause in which he died trying to achieve. Forgive me if my verbal respect of that duty is not up to your level of standard.

All you are achieving in this discussion is convincing me that your views are on the same level as the WBC.

Good, because I'd rather be on the level of the WBC than on the level of that dead soldier's dad. If everyone sued each other when they were merely offended, or if the US military ruled the streets of the USA then I know that it would NOT be a democracy. Many members of the military know that too. But if the WBC were on every street corner of the USA with their goofy picket signs saying goofy things and trying to grab your attention, then I know it would not only be a democracy but that it would be a healthy one full of people so tolerant and at peace with themselves that they can simply admire and tolerate the efforts of those with dissenting viewpoints. Fast food restaurants, stores, and hotels have competing goofy signs and they don't sue each other to shut the competition up... well sometimes they try.

I have something of a relationship with God. If someone says that I'm going to hell or that God hates me... it does not bring me any anger. God is so far above that and I think I've only seen the bread crumbs. Think of it this way, if someone comes to you and says that your husband hates you and is going to dump you... is your relationship so fragile that you might believe them? Are you so fragile that you feel the need to hurt them for saying it?

I said from the outset that I personally think that what the WBC is doing graveside is wrong. They are applying insult to injury. But what I know is very very very wrong is to apply injury to insult, and that is what the dad, the judge, and the jury have done. They went to war to shut someone up.

 

[Muslimwoman]

I think the US military members appreciate the words of respect you have for the job they have done in Iraq and Afghanistan in helping condemn and remove some regimes by force.

My political arguments against the war in Iraq have never been about individual soldiers, they fight where they are told to fight. Those that choose torture for pleasure I have no respect for. I am perfectly capable of hating your government, hating a war and still show respect for those that die doing their job.

Good, because I'd rather be on the level of the WBC than on the level of that dead soldier's dad.

Sometimes Cyberpi your views are just beneath contempt. What the father, the judge and the jury have done is say enough, this behaviour is unacceptable. You keep suggesting the father should have just put up with it, shut up and gone home (as Bob keeps suggesting the Palestinians should do - is that the new American trend? If you are oppressed or offended you should just shut up and accept it because others have the right to be offensive and oppressive? If so I am so glad I am not American).

 

[cyberpi]

My political arguments against the war in Iraq have never been about individual soldiers, they fight where they are told to fight. Those that choose torture for pleasure I have no respect for. I am perfectly capable of hating your government, hating a war and still show respect for those that die doing their job

Sometimes Cyberpi your views are just beneath contempt. What the father, the judge and the jury have done is say enough, this behaviour is unacceptable. You keep suggesting the father should have just put up with it, shut up and gone home (as Bob keeps suggesting the Palestinians should do - is that the new American trend? If you are oppressed or offended you should just shut up and accept it because others have the right to be offensive and oppressive? If so I am so glad I am not American).

No, I have never proposed that the dad, judge, or jury should have shut up. I did suggest several times across different threads that people should converse with and rebuke the WBC.

So the American that you really respect is the dead American. Well then we disagree and I invite you again to the USA. I am self employed and could help pay your way... maybe I could employ you temporarily?! There is lots of travel across America with what I do and time obviously for conversation. Perhaps then you might come to understand my viewpoint or that I might better come to understand yours.

 

[bob x]

Cyberpi, are you aware that all of Fred Phelps's money is derived from frivolous lawsuits? And I mean every penny he has: he does not do anything else for a living except sue people over purported insults to himself, and hope that enough of the people he sues will pay him a little extortion just so he will go away.

 

[cyberpi]

Cyberpi, are you aware that all of Fred Phelps's money is derived from frivolous lawsuits? And I mean every penny he has: he does not do anything else for a living except sue people over purported insults to himself, and hope that enough of the people he sues will pay him a little extortion just so he will go away.

That is not true. There is a group of 75 followers or so there and the money comes from tithing. I read there has also been some outside contributions for targeted purposes. But I do see a real history of hate by Phelps with his own lawsuits in the courts. He has clearly sued for personal gain in his history.

 

[Muslimwoman]

So the American that you really respect is the dead American.

I did not say that but I strongly believe that the dead soldier deserves as much respect as the living one and the family of the dead soldier deserve the respect of the nation in allowing them to bury their child with dignity.

I have never understood this American culture of suing everyone but in this instance I think it was to make a statement, to show these people what they are doing is morally repugnant to decent people. I doubt the father will ever see a cent of the money but I would imagine that money was not the real objective. These people should be made to stop and your government should be responsible for that. To ask your young to go and die for their country, then say it is peoples right to abuse the dead persons memory and family is disgraceful and if your government are not prepared to protect people from this abuse then obviously they have no alternative but to seek civil action.

Well then we disagree and I invite you again to the USA. I am self employed and could help pay your way... maybe I could employ you temporarily?! There is lots of travel across America with what I do and time obviously for conversation. Perhaps then you might come to understand my viewpoint or that I might better come to understand yours.

Well I always said I would never set foot in America and some of the views I hear on this forum have not encouraged me to change that view. However, I have deep respect for some Americans I speak with on this forum and have thought that when my business is up and running I may just come and see what it is I have such mistrust of. So perhaps next year I shall take up your offer of employment for a few weeks (as long as it is not pig farming, selling alcohol or lap dancing ).

 

[madeinrussia89]

However, I have deep respect for some Americans I speak with on this forum and have thought that when my business is up and running I may just come and see what it is I have such mistrust of.

Do you mistrust America or distrust it?

Mistrust kind of gives way to the fact that America has a hidden agenda, but it's not exactly hidden, it's out in the open and generally just sucks.

 

[bob x]

"That is not true. There is a group of 75 followers or so there and the money comes from tithing. "
I'm sorry to hear that. I thought Fred and Shirley's "law firm" was the only money flowing into them.
Are you really going to go out to Topeka to meet those charming people? Let us know how that goes, if you do.

 

[Quahom1]

I did not say that but I strongly believe that the dead soldier deserves as much respect as the living one and the family of the dead soldier deserve the respect of the nation in allowing them to bury their child with dignity.

I have never understood this American culture of suing everyone but in this instance I think it was to make a statement, to show these people what they are doing is morally repugnant to decent people. I doubt the father will ever see a cent of the money but I would imagine that money was not the real objective. These people should be made to stop and your government should be responsible for that. To ask your young to go and die for their country, then say it is peoples right to abuse the dead persons memory and family is disgraceful and if your government are not prepared to protect people from this abuse then obviously they have no alternative but to seek civil action.



Well I always said I would never set foot in America and some of the views I hear on this forum have not encouraged me to change that view. However, I have deep respect for some Americans I speak with on this forum and have thought that when my business is up and running I may just come and see what it is I have such mistrust of. So perhaps next year I shall take up your offer of employment for a few weeks (as long as it is not pig farming, selling alcohol or lap dancing ).

some of us (a great majority actually), love our country and the people we call our neighbors and fellow citizens. Enough anyway to volantarilly put on a uniform, and deliberately suspend some of our rights as citizens, in order to protect what we and others do have. Some of us have decided to give 20 or more years of our life to do just that. And it damn sure ain't for the paycheck...

however, no has to "like" when a neighbor is doing uncivilized and crude, rude behavior.

The beautiful mystery of this country is that "dissent" is perfectly legal and expected. But MS, it isn't up to the government to enforce etiquette and or basic civility. It is up to society.

Ours is a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Despite what some may claim as otherwise.

Case in point: The good citizens of California told an inept governor to come home, and put another in his place, before the regular election. This time, they put a foriegn born naturalized citizen in charge of their state...his name?

Arnold...he portrays action heros on the movie screen, married to a Kennedy and hasn't done to bad for California...certainly better than Governor Brown did...

As far as seeing America (if you do come), stay away from the Metropolis environment. Go to the small towns and rural areas (that is where the vast majority of America lives "66%"). Then, take a jaunt into the big cities. You'll find a very different America there (not bad, just different). Put the two together in your mind, and you'll see the American face as it really is.

We tend to call ourselves "uglier" than we really are, and it often takes strangers to point that out, based on their actual observations...



v/r

Q

 

[cyberpi]

Are you really going to go out to Topeka to meet those charming people? Let us know how that goes, if you do.

Absolutely why not. I was going to go this weekend but I was called up to Michigan for a job on Monday. In fact seeing as I'm in your home state, care to swap insurance stories and be a character witness to verify or rescue me from the depths of being beneath contempt?

At the time I joined the Marines it was only with the full understanding that it was the people who the military works for, respects, and not the other way around. I did not wish to work for another dictatorial regime trying to justify itself. Today I would be less certain of that decision as the current government leader requires people to respect the military that is sworn to respect him, or chides those who don't, and the people are required to pay for it. In a military does the general respect the private, or is the private required to respect the general? Does the President and military pay for the citizen, or does the citizen pay them? The federal government has passed laws preventing disrespect of the military, including taking pictures and protesting graveside now. A number of websites have been shut down by government for fear that they preach hate or are disrespectful, and I disrespect that. People need to see it. That is a slippery slope and if it means anything to anyone, then know that I joined the military not for the pride in myself that some service members exhibit, but in pride for the very ideals that the prideful dad, judge, and jury trampled all over like angry dogs. Freedom of speech, graveside rebuke if necessary... I hope people who come to my funeral come bearing rebukes. They can keep their praise for themselves.

Well I always said I would never set foot in America and some of the views I hear on this forum have not encouraged me to change that view. However, I have deep respect for some Americans I speak with on this forum and have thought that when my business is up and running I may just come and see what it is I have such mistrust of. So perhaps next year I shall take up your offer of employment for a few weeks (as long as it is not pig farming, selling alcohol or lap dancing ).

Next spring or summer then, I travel all over the place and you will get a chance to see diversity. I promise you that. No pig farming, alcohol, or lap dancing. I drive around and repair big aircraft with plenty of time between.

 

[cyberpi]

Do you mistrust America or distrust it?

Mistrust kind of gives way to the fact that America has a hidden agenda, but it's not exactly hidden, it's out in the open and generally just sucks.

There are well over 300 million independent agendas in America and a complilation of joint agendas. Uncountable. If you are going to say mine sucks then I insist you come meet me and learn what my agenda is... because I'm not so sure myself. I'd like to learn why my hidden or overt agenda generally just sucks.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Do you mistrust America or distrust it?

Mistrust kind of gives way to the fact that America has a hidden agenda, but it's not exactly hidden, it's out in the open and generally just sucks.

I should say both really, yes I believe the US has an open and unpleasant agenda but I also believe they have a more unsavoury one hiding under the table. One of the issues about the US policies that frightens me so much is that very small minority groups appear to be able to assert huge political pressure. The issue of the gun lobbyists just blows my mind (or would do if I came for a holiday and met a looney with a gun).

The beautiful mystery of this country is that "dissent" is perfectly legal and expected. But MS, it isn't up to the government to enforce etiquette and or basic civility. It is up to society.

I am sorry Q but to an outsider looking in it doesn't look like a beautiful mystery, it looks like anarchy.

To my mind it is the job of the government to protect people, even against verbal offence. In the UK it would be illegal for me to stand in the street and shout the N word at black people. Should the government need to protect people from this, no but unfortunately there are unpleasant, ignorant people in our society and so the government is required to say the majority of the people do not accept this. If society itself dealt with such things it would never become a government issue but the fact that the N word became a government issue is proof that society was not adequately dealing with the issue itself.

I also have to say that I probably wouldn't feel so strongly about this issue if that young man had not given his life to protect the rights of your citizens. That is not to disrespect people not in uniform but if you are going to ask your young to die for your country then you have a duty to them, a covenant with them and their families.

Freedom of speech, graveside rebuke if necessary...

Rebuke for what? What had this soldier done other than his duty? Was he gay? If they want to protest about the miltary system then they should do so in Washington.

Next spring or summer then, I travel all over the place and you will get a chance to see diversity. I promise you that. No pig farming, alcohol, or lap dancing. I drive around and repair big aircraft with plenty of time between.

I will see how my business goes but if all goes well I shall come. Will I need a gumshield?

 

[madeinrussia89]

There are well over 300 million independent agendas in America and a complilation of joint agendas. Uncountable. If you are going to say mine sucks then I insist you come meet me and learn what my agenda is... because I'm not so sure myself. I'd like to learn why my hidden or overt agenda generally just sucks.

When I say " America has a sucky agenda " I don't mean that you or I has a sucky agenda, I mean the government itself that we somehow put into power time and time again.

 

[madeinrussia89]

I should say both really, yes I believe the US has an open and unpleasant agenda but I also believe they have a more unsavoury one hiding under the table. One of the issues about the US policies that frightens me so much is that very small minority groups appear to be able to assert huge political pressure. The issue of the gun lobbyists just blows my mind (or would do if I came for a holiday and met a looney with a gun).

Well, I don't blame you for not trusting the US, hah I don't either, and I almost don't want to know if there is a worse agenda in hiding, you know. I really hope we don't go into Iran, but I have a bad feeling it is coming.

It frightens me also how minority groups seem to assert so much political influence. Is it that bad in the UK? Sometimes it's like..what the hell is going on here.

And, I don't know if you're a hijabi or a niqabi MW, but if you are... I'd be careful if you travel to the US anytime in the future. Not to scare you, but just to warn you. I get weird looks from people outside for wearing the headscarf to church.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Well, I don't blame you for not trusting the US, hah I don't either, and I almost don't want to know if there is a worse agenda in hiding, you know. I really hope we don't go into Iran, but I have a bad feeling it is coming.

I pray we don't invade Iran, purely for the people that would die but I agree I think it is definately on the agenda and the Iranian government don't look like backing down any time soon. I see so many comments by Muslims about if Iran was invaded the whole Muslim world would rise up and fight - yadda, yadda, yadda. It will not happen, most of the ME see's Iran's government as the loonies they are and Saudi wouldn't risk it's oil revenues.

I do have a problem though with nuclear armed countries insisting they are the only ones allowed them. I say ban nukes, outright, lets get rid of them all.

It frightens me also how minority groups seem to assert so much political influence. Is it that bad in the UK? Sometimes it's like..what the hell is going on here.

The UK isnot nearly as bad but with most issues we are following the US. Recently there was an issue about labels on alcohol and the drinks industry managed to assert enough political pressure (because the tax collected on drink is mindboggling) that the labels were hardly changed at all. So we seem to be blindly following you on that issue too and I think before long we will have lobby groups as strong as those in the US - hey thanks guys

And, I don't know if you're a hijabi or a niqabi MW, but if you are... I'd be careful if you travel to the US anytime in the future. Not to scare you, but just to warn you. I get weird looks from people outside for wearing the headscarf to church.

I wear hijab but would not wear it to the US. When I came back to the UK my husband was very worried about me wearing it and being abused in the street so the Imam told me to remove it when I travel. It is designed for my protection, not to invite abuse and the feeling I get is that as a Muslim I would be less than welcome in some areas of the US.

 

[Quahom1]

I pray we don't invade Iran, purely for the people that would die but I agree I think it is definately on the agenda and the Iranian government don't look like backing down any time soon. I see so many comments by Muslims about if Iran was invaded the whole Muslim world would rise up and fight - yadda, yadda, yadda. It will not happen, most of the ME see's Iran's government as the loonies they are and Saudi wouldn't risk it's oil revenues.

I do have a problem though with nuclear armed countries insisting they are the only ones allowed them. I say ban nukes, outright, lets get rid of them all.



The UK isnot nearly as bad but with most issues we are following the US. Recently there was an issue about labels on alcohol and the drinks industry managed to assert enough political pressure (because the tax collected on drink is mindboggling) that the labels were hardly changed at all. So we seem to be blindly following you on that issue too and I think before long we will have lobby groups as strong as those in the US - hey thanks guys



I wear hijab but would not wear it to the US. When I came back to the UK my husband was very worried about me wearing it and being abused in the street so the Imam told me to remove it when I travel. It is designed for my protection, not to invite abuse and the feeling I get is that as a Muslim I would be less than welcome in some areas of the US.

I pray we don't invade Iran. And No one (not even the president), wants to go there. But the government of Iran has aspirations that mean to upset the world. A muslim in every house, or a dead house. I'm sorry, I will not accept Muslim rule, ever. Neither will most of my constituents.

For a peaceful religion, it seems to bring out the anger in the rest of us "infidels"...how strange. Or maybe it's the lunatics that claim to be the leaders that do it. In any event, innocent people would suffer.

Nice thing about nukes (if there is any), is that the owner of them, does have the "final" say, no matter how "powerful" the opponent considers themself...

As far as wearing a hijab in the US. They are as common as a pair of jeans, and no one looks twice at the wearer.

As far as alcohol...beat the tax...make your own (lol)

v/r

Q

 

[wil]

But the government of Iran has aspirations that mean to upset the world.

Neither will most of my constituents.

For a peaceful religion, it seems to bring out the anger in the rest of us "infidels"...how strange.

In reverse order...

For a peaceful religion Christianity seems to be able to bring out the anger in Muslims...Osama was our buddy remember.

You have constituents?

The president of Iran is a figurehead. For some reason our US Gov't and the US media decided to heighten his words and make them of value and import where there was none before....we could have ignored him and he would still be over there talking away without a worldwide audience. Me wonders why we chose to magnify his rhetoric so.

 

[Quahom1]

In reverse order...

For a peaceful religion Christianity seems to be able to bring out the anger in Muslims...Osama was our buddy remember.

You have constituents?

The president of Iran is a figurehead. For some reason our US Gov't and the US media decided to heighten his words and make them of value and import where there was none before....we could have ignored him and he would still be over there talking away without a worldwide audience. Me wonders why we chose to magnify his rhetoric so.

Of course it does (to the extremists who call themselves the true followers, while they violate every tennant the Qu'ran says about killing and war and conquest). Osama was never our "buddy".

I never mentioned the president of Iran, I said the government of Iran. Case in point...600 Iranian Guards captured in Iraq (and climbing). They didn't go on their own...A Syrian weapons grade Plutonium processing plant with a great deal of parts manufactured in Iran...(these are a few of my favorite things, the media conveniently forgets to report to us on)...oh and did you hear the latest about the tolerance of Iran towards other faiths? 108 Suffis wounded and imprisoned by Iranian Guards, because of a fight started by, Shiite clerics. (Suffis never resort to violence, they're esoteric and mystical and peaceful by nature, and they are Shiites to boot!)


v/r

Q

 

[madeinrussia89]

I agree MW, let's get rid of nukes altogether. It's funny that the US tells everyone they can't have them and then they scare the population that they are going to get nuked by terrorists (which isn't fully outside the realm of possibility) even though we're the only country that's ever used it on people, TWICE.

Maybe on the east coast hijab is common (no idea), but not on the west coast unless you're in tehrangeles, ahaha. In other places though, people typically won't be as tolerant. Most people won't give you trouble, but there are always a group of idiots somewhere just waiting for something and our news constantly pumping " BAD MUSLIM BAD ISLAM BAD BAD BAD EVIL" doesn't help it. I wish it wasn't like that.

It seems to be people abusing Islam and doing wrong actions that the religion doesn't permit in the first place (like suicide bombing) that causes *most* of the violence. Isn't the greatest jihad the inner jihad anyway?

As far as Mahmoud goes, he can spout off all he wants because it's the ayatollah that has real authority.

I wouldn't go so far as to say no one wants to invade Iran, why else would they be shoving it down our throats in the media, " IRAN IRAN bomb nuke IRAN death destruction IRAN MAHMOUD death dealer '.

 

[Muslimwoman]

I pray we don't invade Iran. And No one (not even the president), wants to go there.

Hmmm, forgive me Q if I don't share your faith in your President. This man went to war with Iraq and then as an afterthought asked what Shia and Sunni meant. So my experience is he acts first, thinks much later.

But the government of Iran has aspirations that mean to upset the world. A muslim in every house, or a dead house. I'm sorry, I will not accept Muslim rule, ever. Neither will most of my constituents.

Iran are not capable of world domination, even with nukes and most of the rest of the Muslim countries shake their heads and make that crazy sign with their hand next to their head. The only real threat from Iran having nukes is to Israel and let's be honest Iran are not short of a weapon or two so why are they not at war with Israel now?

Or maybe it's the lunatics that claim to be the leaders that do it. In any event, innocent people would suffer.

Here is my take on this. Yes Irans government are a few sticks short of a bundle. They go out and make hate speaches and thousands wave their flags and shout nonsense. Our countries look on and assume the whole country is nuts and agrees with the government. Now, I can watch Bush talking absolute rubbish and thousands of people wave their flags and shout nonsense - so should I assume he has the support of the entire nation? Or should I assume that many are at home watching tv, as they are in Iran?

There seems to be this strange attitude that every Muslim is a political activist. Muslim countries are just like most others, a majority of people really can't be bothered with politics. The only difference in Muslim countries is the nutters don't have a problem with using violence.

The point that is often missed is that most Muslim countries hate each other just as much as they hate the west but when Ms Rice starts her barking mad waffle about 'the new map of the Middle East' guess what happens? Yep all the Muslim countries suddenly forget their difference and close ranks.

Nice thing about nukes (if there is any), is that the owner of them, does have the "final" say, no matter how "powerful" the opponent considers themself...

People have a strange idea about nukes, that they could wipe out entire countries - they can't. The danger from using nukes is counter strike, the chain reaction it would set off. This is the situation we have left ourselves in, the danger for the whole world is not if Iran threw a nuke Isreals way but the counter strikes that would cause and once it starts it will not stop, not through necessity but through fear.

As far as wearing a hijab in the US. They are as common as a pair of jeans, and no one looks twice at the wearer.

That isn't the impression I am getting from people on this forum.

Salaam

For a peaceful religion Christianity seems to be able to bring out the anger in Muslims...Osama was our buddy remember.