Is It Wrong to Drink Alcoholic Beverages?

Bruce Michael said:
Dear Q Joe,

Christ did not turn water into alcoholic wine at the Marriage at Cana- it was much better than that!

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/christ-and-dionysos-7270.html

Paul tells us that he was setting an example.

The human digestive system itself creates alcohol- no need to get it from outside!

Happy Trails,
Br.Bruce

[SIZE=-1]Abstain because it is right to abstain - not that yourself shall be kept clean.[/SIZE]
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I'm sorry, no where in the bible or any Apocrypha does it state that Christ turned water into anything but wine. And a lot of good the human digestive system does with alcohol once it passes the stomach lining Bruce.

The actual term is called Endogenous Ethanol Production.
It is made in the intestines. Yeasts produce tiny amounts of it, and the body absorbs this normally modest volume of EE and it goes straight to the liver, where it’s metabolized. Barring unusual circumstances, very little EE makes it to the rest of the body.
 
hiya,
i suppose how you feel on this subject is down to your upbringing, cultural influences, the religion you have been exposed to, personal desire and perhaps even health. i would guess then that you could easily justify or condemn drinking with various quotes and clever argument.

if i'm useless at socialising and alcohol facilitates this i maybe inclined to do it, but that won't solve the problem of why i can't relax in company it will worsen it. for me personally the answer is in the right question - why do i require stimulation from an outside source? is it that physically or psychologically i am dull and being this way i seek to have some fire or joie de vie and so look to external sources to give me this. i feel it is of utmost importance to stoke your own inner fire or flame and not take it from an artificial form, which must surely extinguish it. sorry i hope folk who like a tipple don't think i'm calling them dull as i understand there are many reasons why people drink, just that ultimately i don't feel it does more than a cover up, ever...

p.s. i had a bottle of organic honey beer on xmas day! first in 5 years. nice but probably not again.

byeeeeee j.........
 
Quahom1 said:
Hametz is port Bruce...21% by volume or greater.
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They didn't have any port back then, Old Friend. There was no distilling and the wine was of about half the proof today.

Anything with yeast in it is hametz. I have read posts recently where Jews ask if is alright to sell their bottles of wine before passover.

Of course today you find Jews drinking kosher wine during passover- after first getting rid of any other yeast product out of the house.

But in the time of Jesus the law was more strictly adhered to than today. Wine is a yeast product- no doubt about it!

Cheerio,
Br.Bruce
 
pattimax said:
23:20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:

Are you a vegetarian because of this verse? Or just downcast when you eat meat?
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I don't eat my meat in a riotous manner Patti. I have been a vegetarian in the past and I will give up meat for Lent.

One day humanity will look back on meat eating as it does cannibalism today. If you want to see something truly disgusting there is a video from a kosher abattoir in the USA doing the rounds of the internet. I have also seen footage from a halal butchery which is truly barbarous.


pattimax said:
It is very wrong to say something is in the bible because of personal feelings.
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The Christian approach these days should be to present all the facts from scientific (material and spiritual) sources and then let people make up their minds in freedom.

Kind Regards,
Br.Bruce
 
Quahom1 said:
I'm sorry, no where in the bible or any Apocrypha does it state that Christ turned water into anything but wine. And a lot of good the human digestive system does with alcohol once it passes the stomach lining Bruce.

The actual term is called Endogenous Ethanol Production.
It is made in the intestines. Yeasts produce tiny amounts of it, and the body absorbs this normally modest volume of EE and it goes straight to the liver, where it’s metabolized. Barring unusual circumstances, very little EE makes it to the rest of the body.
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I have already explained the miracle at Cana in the link I posted. Of course the text says "wine".

Yeah the alcohol produced is not in the stomach but intestines- it stops your dinner going off.

The extra alcohol you drink enlarges your liver, and of course damages it over time.

Your Brother,
Bruce
 
Bruce Michael said:
The Christian approach these days should be to present all the facts from scientific (material and spiritual) sources and then let people make up their minds in freedom.

Kind Regards,
Br.Bruce
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Bruce, I thought the Christian approach these days, as all days, should be to present the fact that Christ lived, died for our sins, rose again and lives today. To add to this that we should become emissaries of scientific facts, some of which are indeed hypotheses disguised as facts, corrupts our role. Let the scientists present their information; Then let the people decide whether they want to accept Christ's gift (which is already bought and paid for and theirs for the taking) or not.

Those who are adamant about condemning the use of alcohol or whatever need to look carefully at their own habits, and be sure that they themselves do not own any indulgences which might fall into the same category. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone...
 
OK, I guess I did not get that.

This forum sometimes makes me sad.

I don't like to see Christians fighting amongst themselves over who holds the "moral high ground". Many a soul has been lost to the idea that "God is on my side". God is not on my side, or on yours, or on anyone else's. God is on GOD's side. Our challenge as Christians is to get on God's side. I doubt He would approve of us trying to muscle each other out of the way to advance our own position.
 
Ooohh. I am very sorry you see it that way. I see it as good, healthy debate. Looking at topics through others eyes ccan show how and why certain decisions are reached.
 
Xavier Breath said:
Bruce, I thought the Christian approach these days, as all days, should be to present the fact that Christ lived, died for our sins, rose again and lives today. To add to this that we should become emissaries of scientific facts, some of which are indeed hypotheses disguised as facts, corrupts our role. Let the scientists present their information; Then let the people decide whether they want to accept Christ's gift (which is already bought and paid for and theirs for the taking) or not.
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Dear Xavier Breath,
Thank you for your interest. There is no such thing as a cookie cutter christianity with Christians all the same shape and flavor. I would have thought this obvious even from the early days of the Church- they would even come to physical blows during their "discussions".

What we strive to have is harmonious conflict.

There is a bad science but this is not discounted by good science. I believe one day that scientists one day will be able to discern the Christ as scientific fact. Christianity is entirely congruent with a real science.


Xavier Breath said:
Those who are adamant about condemning the use of alcohol or whatever need to look carefully at their own habits, and be sure that they themselves do not own any indulgences which might fall into the same category. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone...
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It is important these days that folk know the reason for things rather than just "thou shalt nots".

Those who have sinned have a responsibility to warn others.

God Bless,
Br.Bruce
 
pattimax said:
Ok. That's fair.

I'm just curious, have you taken nazirite vows?
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No Patti, but thinking back I must have taken a Rechabite vow when I was a child. My Great Great Grandfather was an alcoholic and his son joined the Temperance movement. My Grandfather was a member but my Dad backslid in his later years. Some of my cousins on that side of the family are alcoholics.

Our Father God does not hold us to vows by the way- for how can we know the full picture when we take it?

One more thing, I do believe that alcohol had an important purpose in the past but since the "turning point of time" that purpose is done with.

Blessings,
Br.Bruce
 
Bruce Michael said:
Proverbs 31:4-5
It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; Nor for princes to say , Where is strong drink?Lest they drink, and forget the law, And pervert the justice due to any that is afflicted.

23:20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:


23:21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

Proverbs 23:31-32
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken.

Hosea 4:11
Prostitution, wine, and new wine take away understanding.
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yes drunkeness is a no,no ,especially for those who represent the true God moderation in all things .
but talking about drunkeness, there is litral drunkeness and spiritual drunkeness, and litral fornication and spritual fornication, and it brings to mind the harlot riding the beast in the book of revelation .
this harlot represents the WORLDWIDE EMPIRE OF FALSE RELIGION.

And Gods people are told to GET OUT OF HER . REVELATION 18-4



(Isaiah 28:7) And these also—because of wine they have gone astray and because of intoxicating liquor they have wandered about. Priest and prophet—they have gone astray because of intoxicating liquor, they have become confused as a result of the wine, they have wandered about as a result of the intoxicating liquor; they have gone astray in their seeing, they have reeled as to decision.



YES, there is much wandering around and much confusion because of spiritual drunkerds, and spiritual fornicaters




“And another, a second angel, followed, saying: ‘She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, she who made all the nations drink of the wine of the anger of her fornication!’” (Revelation 14:8)
 
Bruce Michael said:
There is no such thing as a cookie cutter christianity with Christians all the same shape and flavor.
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There most certainly are too cookie-cutter christians! Why do you think we deal with all these stupid stereotypes?

I would have thought this obvious even from the early days of the Church- they would even come to physical blows during their "discussions".
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This is part of the reason for cookie-cutter christians.
 
pattimax said:
Ooohh. I am very sorry you see it that way. I see it as good, healthy debate. Looking at topics through others eyes ccan show how and why certain decisions are reached.
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I am all for healthy debate, and I am quite focussed on looking at topics through others' eyes. Sometimes, these debates become unhealthy, falling into the category of "doubtful disputations" See Romans 14, particularly:
Code: 
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more; but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Can we hear and discuss each other's views without judging?
Code: 
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
 
mee said:
but talking about drunkeness, there is litral drunkeness and spiritual drunkeness, and litral fornication and spritual fornication, and it brings to mind the harlot riding the beast in the book of revelation .
this harlot represents the WORLDWIDE EMPIRE OF FALSE RELIGION.
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"Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker." -Ogden Nash.

The position of the Russelites has changed somewhat over the years, Mee.

Your lot once had it that ALL religion was a racket and that preachers were crooks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_in_the_United_States
During the late 1930s and '40s, the Jehovah's Witnesses attacked the Roman Catholic Church and other Christian denominations so stridently that many states passed laws against their inflammatory rhetoric. There is a report of a Jehovah's Witness caravan riding through Arkansas waving banners that read, "Religion is a Racket" and "Preachers are Crooks."[
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That was more than a report- I have seen the photos- weren't they in a Watchtower magazine?

Of course they later caved in and registered as a religion. That made good sense because of the financial and other advantages.

Happy New Year,
Br.Bruce

 
Tao_Equus said:
I'm right and holier than thou art!!

BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Unholy dust-up at Nativity church

Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching into war... with the Cross of Jesus, slaying innocent men women and children..
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Nobody killed there Old Chum!
It is very efficient really. The Western Churches had their Christmas as usual on 25th December while the Armenians and Greeks celebrate 6th January as Christmas.

http://www.sain.org/Armenian.Church/xmas.txt

"Armenian Christmas," as it is popularly called, is a culmination of
celebrations of events related to Christ's Incarnation. Theophany or
Epiphany (or Astvadz-a-haytnootyoon in Armenian) means
"revelation of God," which is the central theme of the Christmas
Season in the Armenian Church. During the "Armenian Christmas"
season, the major events that are celebrated are the Nativity of
Christ in Bethlehem and His Baptism in the River Jordan. The day
of this major feast in the Armenian Church is January 6th.
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Greeks also have a different Santa- St. Basil.

Tao_Equus said:
God I need a drink!!
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The founders of AA recognised that all folk need the spirit.

In a letter Carl Jung wrote:
His craving for alcohol was the equivalent, on a low level, of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness, expressed in medieval language: the union with God.*
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Carl Jung on alcoholism

Carl added:

You see, "alcohol" in Latin is "spiritus" and you use the same word for the highest religious experience as well as for the most depraving poison. The helpful formula therefore is: spiritus contra spiritum.
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I wish you a safe New year,
Br.Bruce
 
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