Thank you. Let us define belief because some will say "I believe that the world is round and not flat". Others will say "I believe that Jesus is the only true path to salvation". Defining belief as an idea where one seperates him or herself from others and sees the other (non believers) as inferior or misguided or condemned to hell or whatever helps us clarify and focus the discussion.
The Function Of Belief
- Thread starter Paladin
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bob x
Well-Known Member
Congrats, Paladin. I once almost got to eight, but took a road trip (it wasn't any better out there the second time around), so I'm only coming up on five, now.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Keep comin back Bob
I fully believe that this condition is cunning and baffling no matter what anyone says. Ive seen some great people go out and never come back. So if you have five years back that is a really big deal!flowperson
Oannes
Bob, you're also da man .
In my life I have found five years to sometimes be an eternity.
flow....
In my life I have found five years to sometimes be an eternity.
flow....
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Pontius, and welcome to CR!
It is physically / mentally / and I would add spiritually impossible to function sanely without any belief whatsoever.
So while it may seem easy to point a finger, perhaps in ridicule?, at those whose beliefs differ from our own; does that not invite reciprocation? What makes perfect sense to us may seem lunacy to others, just as what others believe may seem lunacy to us.
Even so, how much will a person's beliefs morph over a lifetime? A little? A lot? Perhaps even radically? Yet even a person whose beliefs are altered radically still must hold on to some element of belief in order to remain sane. Individual beliefs may take a subjective form, belief itself (as far as humans and rational thought are concerned) serves an objective function.
Perhaps. Of course, all of us have a belief of one form or other, we cannot sanely function without some form of belief.
It is physically / mentally / and I would add spiritually impossible to function sanely without any belief whatsoever.
So while it may seem easy to point a finger, perhaps in ridicule?, at those whose beliefs differ from our own; does that not invite reciprocation? What makes perfect sense to us may seem lunacy to others, just as what others believe may seem lunacy to us.
Even so, how much will a person's beliefs morph over a lifetime? A little? A lot? Perhaps even radically? Yet even a person whose beliefs are altered radically still must hold on to some element of belief in order to remain sane. Individual beliefs may take a subjective form, belief itself (as far as humans and rational thought are concerned) serves an objective function.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
At least you had the good sense enough to try again, and for that you too should be commended.
Congrats on the milestone!
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
I agree 5 years dry is quite an achievement. I cannot really appreciate alcoholism having never been a victim but of course I have observed it in friends. I do not have one friend who suffers from this that has managed 5yrs so I can appreciate the difficulty.
I am particularly pleased for you Bob because I know that giving up the bottle is an important first step in your conversion to Islam.
Salaam
I am particularly pleased for you Bob because I know that giving up the bottle is an important first step in your conversion to Islam.
Salaam
I want to clarify the definition of belief. To separate it from ideas about what shapes the world around us e.g. "I believe the earth revolves around the sun". I believe that my DNA is different than your DNA. I believe that Mt. Everest is the tallest mountain in the world. Yes we need these scientific beliefs to function in today's modern culture. But what about the spiritual beliefs. I for one do not think we need to rely on mythology to live in these modern times. I find it much more comforting to neither believe nor disbelieve in any religious or spiritual movement. I simply admit that I don't know.
If you tell me that you are in a group of believers that have all experienced space travel with aliens, well, it is a bit far fetched but do I really know that what you tell me isn't true. If you tell me that Jesus is the son of God and unless I accept him I will burn in hell for eternity, do I know it to be true. Is Allah the one god? Am I god and just imagining everything because I am playing hide and go seek with myself and nothing is real? I won't discount what you say because I haven't experienced it myself, but I won't embrace it because I don't know for myself that it is true.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Okay, new question: what is the connection between personal belief and identity?
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Ah the silence speaks volumes!
flowperson
Oannes
Hi Mark...I was thinking about posting an answer yesterday, but it was going to be a lot of work late in the day.
A very philosophical question. Good work. Yawn...maybe tomorrow good buddy.
Okay, you win. I'll take a quick try at it now. Since my array of beliefs is more or less in constant flux each day because of what I look at and retain, my identity is also not definite most days. I'm pretty sure that one reflects the state of the other, although individual identity paradigms change less often than belief paradigms in my case. It has to do with the flow and assimilation of information in my particular case. I'm one old fart that likes to remain mentally and spiritually flexible. I just feel better and my life flows more smoothly when I live that way.
flow....
A very philosophical question. Good work. Yawn...maybe tomorrow good buddy.
Okay, you win. I'll take a quick try at it now. Since my array of beliefs is more or less in constant flux each day because of what I look at and retain, my identity is also not definite most days. I'm pretty sure that one reflects the state of the other, although individual identity paradigms change less often than belief paradigms in my case. It has to do with the flow and assimilation of information in my particular case. I'm one old fart that likes to remain mentally and spiritually flexible. I just feel better and my life flows more smoothly when I live that way.
flow....
China Cat Sunflower
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Hey Mark,
Are you talking about religious belief, or generic belief? Because I could go eighteen different ways on this depending. Belief and one's sense of identity are inextricably tangled in my experience.
Chris
Are you talking about religious belief, or generic belief? Because I could go eighteen different ways on this depending. Belief and one's sense of identity are inextricably tangled in my experience.
Chris
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
I don't think there is really any difference between generic belief and religious belief, the process seems the same. However for the sake of argument lets use the term "world view" since that covers both religious and secular outlooks.
China Cat Sunflower
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To start, I think that both belief (world view) and identity (one's self-perceived place within that world) are mechanisms by which an individual establishes and maintains a relationship with the larger group.
I tried to write about this in two separate posts, but wound up chasing my tail and unable to tie all the ends together. In both instances, after having written four or five paragraphs, I deleted what I had written. It's a good question, I just need to think about it some more.
Chris
I tried to write about this in two separate posts, but wound up chasing my tail and unable to tie all the ends together. In both instances, after having written four or five paragraphs, I deleted what I had written. It's a good question, I just need to think about it some more.
Chris
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Sorry, was away and missed the question.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Great question, Paladin!
Leads me to wonder if we should be ignoring the man behind the curtain, the "great and powerful OZ"...?
Personal belief and identity, the connection...
Am I (that is to say, do I identify with) my personal belief(s) of who I am? Or am I what others' believe me to be? Or some combination? Or am I way off base?
How much of our personality is innate (nature) and how much is learned (nurture)? I would guess the learned part pretty well equivocates with beliefs.
And then the question arises, beliefs in what? Self? Worldview? Self within worldview? Worldview surrounding self?
My short answer would be "yes," but there is a very sticky matter of degree that seems hard to cipher by shooting from the hip. Not to say it wouldn't be fun to try!
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Pontius!
Even atheists have to believe in something. I submit that scientific beliefs are as subject to fault and frivolity as any religious beliefs...
Belief serves a very similar function whether that belief is a scientific belief or a religious belief (or superstitious belief, or whatever other belief might exist). What you are asking is to better serve one bias at the expense of the other...any way you care to cut it, it is an attempt to dismiss those that do not "believe" the same way...rather than trying to understand the function and purpose of belief as a whole.
Even atheists have to believe in something. I submit that scientific beliefs are as subject to fault and frivolity as any religious beliefs...
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
I submit that scientific beliefs are as subject to fault and frivolity as any religious beliefs...
Even when, as in the vast majority of my own views, our belief is qualified by the scientific principle that it is only our best guess? Does belief have to be concrete? Or can it be fluid and flexible, adapting to change and circumstance. The trouble with basing belief on a very dubiously recorded history is that it produces a more or less static or entrenched set of beliefs. This is quite different from a genuinely scientifically defined system. True science is always questioning itself. Religion does not. In practice the difference may be subtle, but it is profound.
Tao
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
The implications of the question are indeed many as all of you have pointed out. Chris seems to have a really neat angle on the sociological aspect while juan wrestles with the layers involved in the intrapersonal aspect. Tao, I think you crystalized the thing quite neatly when you ask if we can remain fluid. So, that being said, are we choosing and clinging on to beliefs so desperatley because they represent who we are? Is that why people become so entrenched in their beliefs that killing becomes an option rather than surrender their sense of self?
What happens if the sense of self is let go of? I think most would say we would slip quickly into madness and despair. But I tend to think that if this was done with full awareness of the implications it could lead to transendance, or to put it another way, a completley genuine relationship to actuality.
What happens if the sense of self is let go of? I think most would say we would slip quickly into madness and despair. But I tend to think that if this was done with full awareness of the implications it could lead to transendance, or to put it another way, a completley genuine relationship to actuality.
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Put it this way, I would far rather my worldview was an honest and genuine effort to understand the actual truth of what is. This may deny me the security of a belief system that assures me everlasting life, that something is on my side, or that I am in any way shape or form important and have some deeper purpose in the scheme of things. But on the other side being sure you dont know anything is liberating. You do not have the headache of trying to wrestle the round objects of observation into the square hole of faith. If you know you can never be right then also you can never be wrong. This is comforting. It leaves you free to be just an observer. And as a neutral observer you can far more greatly appreciate the vast richness of all things.
Tao
Tao