The Function Of Belief

[juantoo3]

Is that a confession of something learned?

It is my objective to continually learn.

Did you ask me if you should demonstrate something? Did you ask me to watch something? What exactly were you trying to demonstrate? Where and when did you demonstrate it? Did you ask anyone who you demonstrated it to if they approved? Did you take a public vote? Sorry I missed it... I don't know you... do I? I mean I know some of your words, and some of your beliefs, but when did you ever ask me whether or not I approved of anything?

With all due respect, I do not see where I need your approval to perform a function I was asked to perform by the owner and administrator of this site.

I learned a very valuable lesson some years back from a woman, an Admiral in the Navy. Grace Hopper was her name, she's been dead for some time now. She taught my first class out of boot camp, and the bit of wisdom she imparted that remains with me to this day? "It is easier to receive forgiveness than to get permission."

Well I suppose you could force yourself into another lane and still be potentially frustrated... or sway back and forth like a drunk and still be potentially frustrated... or just do nothing and still be potentially frustrated. I guess I chose the wrong word. Maybe 'rejected' might be a better word, but then I suppose you could still apply the other two cases and be rejected after the act or alleged demonstration, rather than before it. Yet you were not rejected... were you? I'm still talking with you. You could still demonstrate something. I'd say that Silas and Niranjan were rejected. Thrown out of this lane. Intollerance threw them out. Not by me. Not in my name.

Likewise perhaps my use of the term "demonstrated" was not fully accurate, maybe "explained" is a bit closer?

Allow me to demonstrate, if you will. Maybe this is the only way to demonstrate the kind of offering that I am trying to describe. I give you the power... I give you the power of a remote control. Would you like me to stop judging your words? Just say the word, just push that button, and I will take it somewhere else. I am programming me to seek and obey your approval. I seek your approval before you suffer from another one of my posts. What say you?

That choice is yours alone, regardless of my desires. As long as it is in you to consider what I post, you will judge those posts by whatever standard you deem fit.

Alternatively I will offer you something outside of this forum. Dinner... my treat... in Florida. Within nose punching distance in case you spot some arrogance. Button two on the remote. What say you?

I'll go one better, a game of chess over a couple of beers. Look for the PM. Please extend the courtesy of keeping the contents confidential. Thanks.

 

[Paladin]

Check out this essay that I happened upon, Mark.

The Simple Truth

Chris

There is a temptation to use the same method to resolve conflicts here on the board
I think I see what you are saying Chris and apparently we aren't far off from understanding one another. Interesting what happens when someone questions their own perceptions, asks the tough questions of themselves and their apparent reality.

 

[juantoo3]

There is a temptation to use the same method to resolve conflicts here on the board
I think I see what you are saying Chris and apparently we aren't far off from understanding one another. Interesting what happens when someone questions their own perceptions, asks the tough questions of themselves and their apparent reality.

Forgive my ignorance, but the site Chris linked is blocked where I am at.

Anybody care to give the gist?

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Not sure what the problem may be, Juan. Uh, I'll try to find a different way in.

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Try this link: Overcoming Bias: Replace the Symbol with the Substance

Scroll down near the bottom of the post (it's a blog) and look for the Simple Truth hot link.

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Author's Foreword:

This essay is meant to restore a naive view of truth.

Someone says to you: "My miracle snake oil can rid you of lung cancer in just three weeks." You reply: "Didn't a clinical study show this claim to be untrue?" The one returns: "This notion of 'truth' is quite naive; what do you mean by 'true'?"

Many people, so questioned, don't know how to answer in exquisitely rigorous detail. Nonetheless they would not be wise to abandon the concept of 'truth'. There was a time when no one knew the equations of gravity in exquisitely rigorous detail, yet if you walked off a cliff, you would fall.

Often I have seen - especially on Internet mailing lists - that amidst other conversation, someone says "X is true", and then an argument breaks out over the use of the word 'true'. This essay is not meant as an encyclopedic reference for that argument. Rather, I hope the arguers will read this essay, and then go back to whatever they were discussing before someone questioned the nature of truth.

In this essay I pose questions. If you see what seems like a really obvious answer, it's probably the answer I intend. The obvious choice isn't always the best choice, but sometimes, by golly, it is. I don't stop looking as soon I find an obvious answer, but if I go on looking, and the obvious-seeming answer still seems obvious, I don't feel guilty about keeping it. Oh, sure, everyone thinks two plus two is four, everyone says two plus two is four, and in the mere mundane drudgery of everyday life everyone behaves as if two plus two is four, but what does two plus two really, ultimately equal? As near as I can figure, four. It's still four even if I intone the question in a solemn, portentous tone of voice. Too simple, you say? Maybe, on this occasion, life doesn't need to be complicated. Wouldn't that be refreshing?

If you are one of those fortunate folk to whom the question seems trivial at the outset, I hope it still seems trivial at the finish. If you find yourself stumped by deep and meaningful questions, remember that if you know exactly how a system works, and could build one yourself out of buckets and pebbles, it should not be a mystery to you.

If confusion threatens when you interpret a metaphor as a metaphor, try taking everything completely literally.

It's kind of like a long joke about philosophy that only a philosophy wonk could enjoy. I figured Mark was geeky that way like I am.

Chris

 

[juantoo3]

Not sure what the problem may be, Juan. Uh, I'll try to find a different way in.

It's not on your end, it's on mine. The computer I am...ahem, borrowing... blocks a lot of sites, and it is not in my discretion to change those parameters.

BTW, I enjoyed what you posted...I guess that makes me a wonk too. one wonk wink coming right up...

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Bummer.

Chris

 

[Paladin]

It's kind of like a long joke about philosophy that only a philosophy wonk could enjoy. I figured Mark was geeky that way like I am.

Chris

Yup, sure am, but only under cover of darkness. During the day I'm a regular joe. Drive a chevy truck, work on construction sites, sometimes work on cars too. But after sundown I draw the shades and open a false wall in my study. Within are hundreds of tomes everything from Will Durant to Plato. Now, unless the mechanical hounds get my scent I'll be safely at home reading.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Ha, I knew it! Another closet intellectual.

I stumbled upon this Overcoming Bias site doing research on the incidence of clinical depression broken down by religious affiliation. It's an amazing trove of interesting thoughts from various contributors. I immediately thought of you, Juan, Tao, and Flow. I thought you might enjoy it as much as I am. Anyway, I don't want to spam, but here's the link: Overcoming Bias: Welcome to Overcoming Bias!

Chris

 

[cyberpi]

With all due respect, I do not see where I need your approval to perform a function I was asked to perform by the owner and administrator of this site.

So by your testimony you were not demonstrating or performing anything for me. That was precisely my point.

"It is easier to receive forgiveness than to get permission."

That is a recipe for sin. Do you give forgiveness easier than you give permission? Do you prefer people to sin against you and require your forgiveness, or do you prefer instead they first seek your permission? So then the alleged wisdom does not follow the golden rule. What forgiveness did Silas or Niranjan receive?

In my time I have heard the exact opposite... the polar opposite wisdom: "When you assume, you make an ASS out of yoU and ME."

That choice is yours alone, regardless of my desires. As long as it is in you to consider what I post, you will judge those posts by whatever standard you deem fit.

No. I can only judge what is given, but I can also elect to not judge (i.e.: ignore), and I can further choose to respect someone else's will over my own.

I'll go one better, a game of chess over a couple of beers.

Would you also claim that pork and poker would be even better?

 

[Tao_Equus]

Ha, I knew it! Another closet intellectual.

I stumbled upon this Overcoming Bias site doing research on the incidence of clinical depression broken down by religious affiliation. It's an amazing trove of interesting thoughts from various contributors. I immediately thought of you, Juan, Tao, and Flow. I thought you might enjoy it as much as I am. Anyway, I don't want to spam, but here's the link: Overcoming Bias: Welcome to Overcoming Bias!

Chris

Looks like a great source Chris, look forward to a longer look tonight.

Tao

 

[Tao_Equus]

Cyberpi,

Your posts are now getting so tedious and full of over inflated ego that I can hardly begin to bring myself to read them. I'm still alive, still kicking, as is Niranjan and Silas. We are all beasts of burden, all fallible, so why do you insist on flogging a dead horse? Sanctimony is not pretty or helpful nor does it undo anything. Get over yourself mate.

Tao

 

[juantoo3]

So by your testimony you were not demonstrating or performing anything for me. That was precisely my point.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are on about then.

That is a recipe for sin. Do you give forgiveness easier than you give permission? Do you prefer people to sin against you and require your forgiveness, or do you prefer instead they first seek your permission? So then the alleged wisdom does not follow the golden rule. What forgiveness did Silas or Niranjan receive?

It can be a recipe for sin if such reasoning is used inappropriately. People will do what people will do, and when not being disruptive I can overlook a great deal, sometimes limits must be placed. What role am I playing? Just little ol' truth seeker me?, dad?, husband?, moderator?, supervisor?, chief cook and bottle washer? Each separate role brings with it a slightly different set of parameters.

In my time I have heard the exact opposite... the polar opposite wisdom: "When you assume, you make an ASS out of yoU and ME."

Indeed. I have heard the same and ascribe to the same bit of wisdom. Where you see the two as mutually exclusive, I don't depending on the parameters of the role I am playing in a given moment.

No. I can only judge what is given, but I can also elect to not judge (i.e.: ignore), and I can further choose to respect someone else's will over my own.

Like I said, the choice is yours. It is your election to consider or not consider. Should you consider, you will judge that material by the set of standards you choose. If you are like some people I know, their response may be entirely different given the benefit of 24 hours.

Would you also claim that pork and poker would be even better?

That is a matter of taste and personal preferences, would you not agree? If you would rather poker than chess, that is fine with me. But I'm not one that gets any thrill out of gambling, so I will have to insist on penny ante poker. The wife might have something to say about any smoking in the house though, fair warning.

 

[cyberpi]

Your posts are now getting so tedious and full of over inflated ego that I can hardly begin to bring myself to read them. I'm still alive, still kicking, as is Niranjan and Silas.

Thank you for your interesting feedback Tao. I was unaware you were suffering. What specifically suggests to you that I have an inflated ego? You have made this claim several times with me already, especially when you did not understand or disagreed with my claims with science and global warming.

We are all beasts of burden, all fallible, so why do you insist on flogging a dead horse?

What specifically are you calling a dead horse or a beast of burden... Yourself? Juantoo3? Silas or Niranjan? Myself? If a horse or a beast of burden were here in front of us, do you think it would consider itself flogged if I had words with it?

Sanctimony is not pretty or helpful nor does it undo anything. Get over yourself mate.

Am I promoting myself? Shall I throw my yoke off and come work for you, Equus_Tao?

 

[Tao_Equus]

Thank you for your interesting feedback Tao. I was unaware you were suffering. What specifically suggests to you that I have an inflated ego? You have made this claim several times with me already, especially when you did not understand or disagreed with my claims with science and global warming.

Its not what you say, its how you say it.

If a horse or a beast of burden were here in front of us, do you think it would consider itself flogged if I had words with it?

Like that. The way you think its respectful to answer everything with your own pointless, useless question that attempts to say " I know more than you " but which really says "I'm too arrogant to do straight talking" or "I cannot think of anything better to say". And you do this so often its just becoming too tedious to bother trying to respond to.

Am I promoting myself?

If you cant work that out then I aint gona help you.

Shall I throw my yoke off and come work for you, Equus_Tao?

Sorry, I really dont think it would work out.



You know what bugs me is that I know you are pretty smart and could be really interesting, BUT you are way too obsessed with trying to prove it all the time. In the doing you just come across as pompous, arrogant and conceited. It completely devalues some of your really good ideas, info and experience. Its a shame. I am not trying to tell you who you should or should not be but I am telling you its frustrating to talk with you, and not because of any intellectual superiority you may or may not have.

Tao

 

[cyberpi]

Its not what you say, its how you say it.

Then it is not what you hear, but how you hear it. What you hear speaks volumes to me.

Like that. The way you think its respectful to answer everything with your own pointless, useless question that attempts to say " I know more than you " but which really says "I'm too arrogant to do straight talking" or "I cannot think of anything better to say". And you do this so often its just becoming too tedious to bother trying to respond to.

No definitely not respect. I ask questions instead of placing statements because until you answer the questions for yourself and resolve the conflict you will not see anything other than what you want to see. You say that people are beasts of burden and then you speak of flogging a dead horse. So then who is dead and what horse thinks that it is flogged with words? You want it in a statement so: I suggest you are under a delusion and your metaphor is broke.

You know what bugs me is that I know you are pretty smart and could be really interesting, BUT you are way too obsessed with trying to prove it all the time.

What makes you think you know what I am obsessed with? You have assumed. I hand you the remote: press the off button and I will become deaf and not reply or bother you. Have you read the Tao of Equus? It appears I am simply not your really interesting horse.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I ask questions instead of placing statements because until you answer the questions for yourself and resolve the conflict you will not see anything other than what you want to see.

I make statements, for the most part, without caveats because I figure it gives people a clearer target. I'm not afraid of putting myself out there. I hate rhetorical questions, and I dislike people who try to answer a question with a question. That's a salesman's trick, and I dislike salesmen.

Chris

 

[Paladin]

Cyberpi,

You do have a habit of re-framing an argument or statement and then addressing that issue instead of the original argument. Quite a neat trick if you can pull it off, many politicians do. Unfortunately it seems not all of your efforts in this vein result in well camouflaged spin.
It would seem that you simply aren't aware of this habit or are so invested in maintaining innocence that you would give up all reasonable discourse despite all evidence provided by your peers.
Now understand there isn't a value judgment in this, but your behavior in this respect is indeed curious.

 

[cyberpi]

Re: The Function Of Assumption

I make statements, for the most part, without caveats because I figure it gives people a clearer target. I'm not afraid of putting myself out there. I hate rhetorical questions, and I dislike people who try to answer a question with a question. That's a salesman's trick, and I dislike salesmen.

Where did Tao ask a question? Who is selling anything??

You do have a habit of re-framing an argument or statement and then addressing that issue instead of the original argument. Quite a neat trick if you can pull it off, many politicians do. Unfortunately it seems not all of your efforts in this vein result in well camouflaged spin.

Could you show me where the original argument is? In the original post I see two questions. Are you looking for answers or are you trying to NLP one? As far as I am concerned the title should have read: 'The Function of Assumption'.

It would seem that you simply aren't aware of this habit or are so invested in maintaining innocence that you would give up all reasonable discourse despite all evidence provided by your peers. Now understand there isn't a value judgment in this, but your behavior in this respect is indeed curious.

So you have judged that I have got a habit I am not aware of, or I am guilty of something, that words try to maintain innocence, that my discourse is unreasonable, that someone here is a peer, and that evidence of me comes from someone here. Wow, that was very disturbing. With which shall I start? But then you say there was no value in your judgment. I surely disagree... there is some value in every judgment.