Hell is a Hoax

17th Angel said:
I, (amazingly) learnt something last night, I was recapping on the case of John Wayne Gacy.... You know, the guy who (as far as we know) killed 33 young males.... Now the main dectective incharge of this investigation... Heeded the words of a psyhcic... (sp) Like how freaking stupid is that? What a waste of time..... Right? He believed in something that was so un freaking believable.... YET it paid off.... Now, this made me ponder... This guy said "What if this woman is right?" What if..... If she was right, that is a terrible tale.. This upright good man, helpful friendly man... Raped and killed 33 (known number) boys.... IF this is right... Then we gotta do something... IF he was wrong, what had he lost? Nothing.......

So, a belife in Hell.... Is it healthy? I think it is. And I can't see any bad from thinking "What if".
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I know a detective with a sheriff's dept. who is psychic. He's used the ability for years to solve murders. He has retrocognition and precognition- that is, sometimes he sees crimes before they are committed, but more often he sees what is like a videotape in his head of the crime once he gets in close proximity to the scene.

I don't see a belief in Hell as ultimately healthy, no. I think, at the least, it depends on how you use the concept. If your spiritual walk is based on carrot vs. stick (i.e., heaven vs. hell), it seems a childish and insincere reason to worship God.

I worship God not for what I will get out of the deal, or what I want to avoid, but because God is God. If the atheists are right and I'm snuffed out of existence after this life, this life was enough for me to be grateful for. This life is a blast, and creation is amazing, and my experience of God is awesome. God deserves my worship and my service through loving others the best I can simply because I am alive, and other beings are alive, and I can feel love. It doesn't get much better than the moments one truly lives and loves wholeheartedly, without regret and without premeditation and without thought for anything but the moment.
 
I agree with most of these comments, this idea of hell/devil stuff is just a usefull tool to keep people under control, they are just symbols and a good way to avoid the responsibilty of our actions.

I think of it, as states of mind, you are either going with existance (towards perfection) or against (selfishness, animalistic, for the self).

These old concepts have been usefull in the past, we do need rules to help us grow and learn.
 
Before entering the heavenly realms (Devachan) the human soul has to be purified.
The Tibetans and Egyptian knew of this:

Bardo Thodol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Book of the Dead - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

People often report that "their life flashed before their eyes" after experiencing a near death experience.

At the time of death the etheric and astral bodies lift out of the corpse.

We enter a condition known as Kamaloca (translated as "desire place"):
Kamaloka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This state is one of great thirst because we still have bodily desires but do not have the bodily organs. Clairvoyants report seeing suffering souls around pubs for instance.

This is the same as the Catholic purgatory (a purging).

In Kamaloca we live our life backwards, going over all of the events, but this time objectively. All the suffering we caused to others - even animals - is experienced by us. Vivisectionists have a particularly bad time of it.

This period lasts about a third of our previous life.

-Br.Bruce
 
From many places, I imagine, Earth could look like heaven. From many places, I imagine, Earth could look like hell.
 
path_of_one said:
I worship God not for what I will get out of the deal, or what I want to avoid, but because God is God. If the atheists are right and I'm snuffed out of existence after this life, this life was enough for me to be grateful for. This life is a blast, and creation is amazing, and my experience of God is awesome. God deserves my worship and my service through loving others the best I can simply because I am alive, and other beings are alive, and I can feel love. It doesn't get much better than the moments one truly lives and loves wholeheartedly, without regret and without premeditation and without thought for anything but the moment.
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Pascal's wager?
 
As far as I understand it, Pascal's Wager was closer to what 17th was saying. Believe in God, heaven, and hell because you lose nothing if you do and are wrong, but everything if you don't and are wrong. Basically, cover your bases by believing so you ensure if the atheists are wrong, you get into heaven.

I think that's an insincere way to worship God.

Additionally, I don't promote believing in God because of any benefits it may bring to the believer, as Pascal put forth.

I promote worshipping God if one experiences any shred of intuitive feeling that this life is not a mere coincidence, if one finds love in the mystery of spirituality, simply because that is enough to warrant it. If I never get anything out of my spiritual path, it doesn't matter. What I already received in being alive and loving other beings on earth is sufficient cause to be grateful to God, regardless of what happens after I die or even how my life goes currently. Of course, I see God in life itself, in all beings. So life itself is enough to show God deserving of my praise and service, and likewise the Earth (though I worship only God).

In short, if I were to evangelize (which we all know I don't ;)), but if I did, I would argue for a spirituality that abandons any sort of focus on personal gain. Isn't that we are alive and were given this amazing Earth and each other enough to lead to gratefulness and wonder? Why must we focus on gaining anything more? And it seems, if we focus our attention on thankfulness and love and service to each other, there is little room for hell.
 
I'm more prone to think that hell is related to one's existence apart from the Divine. The imagery that Jesus employs seems indicate this. The burning is the indignation of one's heart in rejection of God and His Righteousness. In Hebrews 12:29, we read that God is a consuming fire which occurs because one who is not right with God will always know that he is not right with God and that will eat Him up, as the worm that dieth not, nor the fire quenched, as Mark 9:44 states. Deuteronomy 28:18 hints at this, "Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood"; So there is a sense of foreboding and bitterness knowing you are in that position. It is a condition of the heart towards God, that as long as one is diametrically opposed, there is that sense of wrongness that will gnaw on his spirit. The outer darkness occurs because the heart lives in darkness, as opposed to God's light. The light of God lights the soul of a man, revealing everything open. When one tries to hide from God, that heart is in darkness. We choose the darkness because we enjoy the pleasures of sin, and not the righteousness of God. We are afraid to come into the light, because we know that it will expose ourselves openly toward God. Not that God doesn't already know, but in hiding, we deceive ourselves in thinking that God doesn't know, which makes it all the worse.

Whether Hell is literal fire and brimstone, or a state of the heart, or both, the conditions promises to be most unpleasant either way.

I can sense that even now, when I know I'm not at a place I need to be, not only with God , but also the people around me. I know when I've done wrong. I know when I continue to do wrong. And as long as I keep myself in the darkness, there is that foreboding sense of wrongness that remains until I fess up and decide to get things right. The process is far from easy because it is painful emotionally, but I have found that when one gives it up to God an amazing healing comes to the heart and soul and a sense of cleansing of one's heart brings back the peace that eluded me when I tried to hide it. It is very liberating to know that God will stop prodding you when you turn back to Him. "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God." - I John 3:20-21

We need to get past the superficial imagery of Hell and into the right relationship with God that will take us out of the despair we are in. Heaven and Hell are tried into that relationship between God and our neighbor. And I believe that when we are honest and sincere to God in this regard, He's not gonna care much what religion affiliation you are, His Grace will shine upon you.
 
Dondi said:
I'm more prone to think that hell is related to one's existence apart from the Divine. The imagery that Jesus employs seems indicate this. The burning is the indignation of one's heart in rejection of God and His Righteousness. In Hebrews 12:29, we read that God is a consuming fire which occurs because one who is not right with God will always know that he is not right with God and that will eat Him up, as the worm that dieth not, nor the fire quenched, as Mark 9:44 states. Deuteronomy 28:18 hints at this, "Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood"; So there is a sense of foreboding and bitterness knowing you are in that position. It is a condition of the heart towards God, that as long as one is diametrically opposed, there is that sense of wrongness that will gnaw on his spirit. The outer darkness occurs because the heart lives in darkness, as opposed to God's light. The light of God lights the soul of a man, revealing everything open. When one tries to hide from God, that heart is in darkness. We choose the darkness because we enjoy the pleasures of sin, and not the righteousness of God. We are afraid to come into the light, because we know that it will expose ourselves openly toward God. Not that God doesn't already know, but in hiding, we deceive ourselves in thinking that God doesn't know, which makes it all the worse.

Whether Hell is literal fire and brimstone, or a state of the heart, or both, the conditions promises to be most unpleasant either way.

I can sense that even now, when I know I'm not at a place I need to be, not only with God , but also the people around me. I know when I've done wrong. I know when I continue to do wrong. And as long as I keep myself in the darkness, there is that foreboding sense of wrongness that remains until I fess up and decide to get things right. The process is far from easy because it is painful emotionally, but I have found that when one gives it up to God an amazing healing comes to the heart and soul and a sense of cleansing of one's heart brings back the peace that eluded me when I tried to hide it. It is very liberating to know that God will stop prodding you when you turn back to Him. "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God." - I John 3:20-21

We need to get past the superficial imagery of Hell and into the right relationship with God that will take us out of the despair we are in. Heaven and Hell are tried into that relationship between God and our neighbor. And I believe that when we are honest and sincere to God in this regard, He's not gonna care much what religion affiliation you are, His Grace will shine upon you.
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I just came across your post and wanted to comment.
Thats very similar to a bahai belief. We believe that hell is a state when your soul is far away from God.
 
kf123 said:
......not everyone chooses to be saved.
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Why would someone not choose to be saved, once they have seen the truth?

The King James Bible does say in Rev. 11:15 that Christ will reign "for ever and ever." However, when you add the 3rd "and for ever," it becomes unscriptural. Furthermore, as the Authorized Version of Rev. 11:15 is an unfortunate and misleading translation, the phrase "for ever and ever" is also unscriptural. Remember, Greek is a very exact language, but King James is a very inexact translation. Here's what God's "exact" Word says regarding this matter.

The Greek Scriptures say that Christ will reign "for the eons of the eons" or "the ages of the ages." Christ "reigns for the eons of the eons" because He reigns for only two eons out of all the other eons. He will reign for the next two eons. That is, He will reign for the thousand years (the next eon) and He reigns during the New Heaven and the New Earth, the eon after that.

Christ reigns over these two eons because Rev. 15:3 plainly tells us that He is "King of the eons." Except the King James Version, that is. The King James has it "King of saints." The "exact" Greek word in this verse is "eons," not "saints" or "nations." The Greek word for "saints" is agion not aions.

If God is in us all, then how can we go to a place without God ("Hell").
 
I view hell as our state of suffering in the body of God - We are punished not for our sins, but by them.

We are all in hell, and dead [in] our sins, until such time that we die to our sins, and be made new creatures in Christ, by living through His Spirit.

Love, or the [Spirit] of Christ, leads us away from sin, and it helps the suffering we endure in life disipate.

Hell is a cycle of sin and suffering that we all experience as humans. It can actually be quite beneficial, tho. [Imho]

Love,

James
 
Azure24 said:
No where in the Bible is Hell truly mentioned, there is not such a place and noone is going to go there. Here is proof:

1 Corinthians 15:22 (New International Version)

22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Timothy 4:10 (New International Version)

10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

* Note i have singled out the most important parts.
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You keep right on believing that and I will keep right on praying the Holy Spirit opens your eyes.
 
Ok can any of you explain a few quotes.

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut if off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43.

"Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" Matthew 25:41

OK is there a real place to go and is the fire eternal or did Jesus Lie?
 
Dor said:
OK is there a real place to go and is the fire eternal or did Jesus Lie?
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Namaste Dor,

It doesn't appear to be either/or, cut and dry.

A. Jesus was known to speak in allegory and parables.

B. The words were written down decades after he said them and passed down word of mouth (hence the differences between the gospels)

C. The writers and interpreters of the various versions and rewrites embellish according to their beliefs (ie some soften the meaning and others enhance)

but you know all that.
 
Dor said:
You keep right on believing that.....
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You keep right on believing that? THAT is what is said in the Bible and if the Bible is lying........

If someone is born into the world isolated from everyone else, they were told that everyone was evil and eveyone deserved to die. They would later go on to kill and murder countless amounts of people without meeting someone who would show them the real world? Would they go the Hell and suffer for enternity? No one in the whole of human existence would ever deserve this, particularly from a all loving God.

Those that sin are only those ignorant and blind from the truth. (which to a certain extent is all of us).

I have given you all (those that think there is a Hell) quotes in the Bible to prove my statement i thinks it's time you showed me yours....

Oh, and remember the New Testament is also called the book of GOOD NEWS (thats for everyone by the way).
 
Dor said:
Ok can any of you explain a few quotes.

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut if off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43.

"Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" Matthew 25:41

OK is there a real place to go and is the fire eternal or did Jesus Lie?
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We are either slaves to sin [suffering - Hell], or we are slaves to Christ. We can either exist in a state of suffering, or we take part in the "heavenly kingdom" through Christ.

We must completely surrender [to] Christ in order to escape the cycles of sin, and suffering. We are cursed until we surrender to Him.

Our bodies, our, minds, our spirit must be in complete harmony with God's will, or we will continue forever, in the cycle of sin, and suffering, which is the hell spoke of in scripture.

To put it simply, we must die to self, and live to Christ through His Spirit. [Love]

A literal Hell does not exist, but the hell that does exist is beneficial, as we learn from the suffering we endure. What do you think brought you to Christ? Was it that you were already happy, and joyful, and loving, or because you suffered in life, and realized your need for salvation?

Love,

James
 
Azure.
Does Jesus speak the truth?
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 14:6[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] Well he said there was everlasting fire.
Matt 18:8[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
Matt 25:41[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

and Eternal condemnation.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
Mark 3:29[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"

And weeping and gnashing of teeth; outer darkness
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matt 8:12[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
Matt 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
Matt 25:30[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

A place of torment.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
Luke 16:28[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

And everlasting punishment.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
Matt 25:46[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

If there are joys and beauty of heaven then there must be horror and torment of hell since they are from the same book.
Ok if you want to not believe in Hell then why believe in Christ? Without hell what was the purpose of the gospel, Calvary, a saviour *what was he saving us from*?

There are consequences to everything in the world always has been and always will be.
[/FONT]
 
Azure24 said:
Is that so? Prove it (I bet you can't).
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No and I am not going to try because I am sure he actually used the word heaven more often and to really understand Jesus on heaven and hell you would have to read each and every verse in its context

Point is the bible talks about things without actually using the word at times.

And it is a moot point because If Jesus had only spoke of hell once that would enough to establish its reality and the fearfulness of it.
 
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