There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

citizenzen said:
What logic have I put forth?

Prove it unsound.

Game on... old man.
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I find the idea of circular reasoning to be unsound logic.

It simply does not refute the fact that we always choose because we prefer it, which is the same thing as saying the strongest influence was the motivation for our choice.

Take the case of the lady who mistakenly poured coffee on her pancakes
She did not prefer the coffee, but she did prefer the act of pouring because she mistakenly thought it was maple syrup.
 
nativeastral said:
tutt tutt rodger you're being incredibly stubborn and predictable!
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Very cute, NA. You always seem to have the beginning of a poem :)

I think it should have been..."tutt tutt "Rodger", please act your "age" :D......"

Anyone want to keep this stanza going........:p...maybe we can write the poem together :) ??

How about the next line:

You seem a lot like a "dodger", at least you are not in a "rage"........ !!

I just got another bolt:

With all that talk about sports you are sort of a "codger", but that might take me another "page" ...:D:D:D"

Just being silly Rodger, please don't take it too seriously ;)
 
In his book IDEAS AND OPINIONS, Albert Einstein said,

“I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. . . . A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God’s eyes he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes. . . . [This realization] mercifully mitigates the easily paralyzing sense of responsibility [i.e., in the sense of contrary choice] and prevents us from taking ourselves and other people all too seriously; it is conducive to a view of life which, in particular, gives humor its due”

 
rodgertutt said:
We will always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influences that are being brought to bear upon our minds, because it is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer. The fact that we choose it demonstrates that we preferred it at least slightly more than other sets of influences that were almost just as strong.

Therefore there is no such a thing as “free will.”
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Okay roger, let's take this line by line...

We will always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influences that are being brought to bear upon our minds,

First of all, I love the absolutes "We will always, without exception...".

I love that you're somehow privy to the mental process of every human who's ever lived and somehow have the power to know how every thought has transpired.

You don't just believe in God... you must be God!

Or you're a fool... more on that soon.
 
rodgertutt said:
In his book IDEAS AND OPINIONS, Albert Einstein said...
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Is that the same Albert Einstein who practiced infidelity?

Einstein's theory of infidelity

Albert Einstein has been revealed as a charismatic flirt and philanderer who liked to describe his extramarital affairs to his second wife and stepdaughter.

A series of 1,300 letters written by the physicist were published for the first time yesterday. They are part of a batch of 3,500 bequeathed to the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

The letters, translated from German, portray Einstein as a heartbreaker who in one letter tells his long-suffering wife, Elsa, how some women shower him with "unwanted" affection. In another he asks his stepdaughter, Margot, to discreetly deliver a love note to his Russian lover.

He was reputed to have been a charmer who bewitched Marilyn Monroe, and had 10 lovers outside of two marriages. These letters, kept by Margot, and released two decades after her death on 8 July 1986 on her instruction, illuminate how Einstein spent little time at home, instead lecturing in Europe and the US, but wrote about his amorous adventures to his family.

Previously released letters have revealed how miserable he was in his first marriage to Mileva Maric, whom he divorced in 1919, to marry his cousin, Elsa.

In the letters, the professor describes six women whom he romanced and spent time sailing, reading, and attending concerts with, while being married to Elsa. Some of the women identified by Einstein include Estella, Ethel, Toni, and his famous "Russian spy lover", Margarita, while others are referred to simply by their initials, such as M and L.

In one letter to Margot, Einstein asks his stepdaughter to pass on "a little letter" to Margarita "to avoid providing curious eyes with tidbits".

...​


Now the man may have been a genius with physics, but I don't think I'd use him as my model for human behavior. But that's just me.
 
rodgertutt said:
The moral character of a man in no way diminishes the soundness of his logic.
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What about the soundness of his life choices? How is it that they are so illogical?

Or do you find them sound as well?

And what about your absolute statements Roger? How is it that you are so sure of how every human who ever existed thinks? If this is so evident to you, why is this not common knowledge among all people?

Why does your absolute knowledge sound so jarring to my ears?
 
citizenzen said:
What about the soundness of his life choices? How is it that they are so illogical?

Or do you find them sound as well?

And what about your absolute statements Roger? How is it that you are so sure of how every human who ever existed thinks? If this is so evident to you, why is this not common knowledge among all people?

Why does your absolute knowledge sound so jarring to my ears?
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Evidentally Einstein did not consider his moral choices "illogical."
Perhaps if you knew his wife you would understand. :)

The reason I am so sure is because everyone always chooses what is, as Einstein puts it, the combination of "internal and external influences."
Therefore there is no such a thing as free will.
Einstein's logic is irrefutable.
 
rodgertutt said:
The reason I am so sure is because everyone always chooses what is, as Einstein puts it, the combination of "internal and external influences."
Therefore there is no such a thing as free will.
Einstein's logic is irrefutable.
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So if everyone chooses based on the combination of "internal and external influences" why isn't that free will?

The ice cream shop serves many flavors, if one day I choose chocolate and one day I choose vanilla, why isn't this an exercise of free will?
 
citizenzen said:
So if everyone chooses based on the combination of "internal and external influences" why isn't that free will?

The ice cream shop serves many flavors, if one day I choose chocolate and one day I choose vanilla, why isn't this an exercise of free will?
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Because it is the influence of its desirability that is causing your will to choose what it does choose. That is causality not "free will." We will always choose the flavor that is having the strongest influence on our desire unless another stronger influence is present. For example if there is only enough ice cream left of that flavor you want for one person (like your child) then the strongest influence that dictates your choice becomes pleasing your child instead of getting the flavor that you wanted.
 
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I don't know where anyone else lives but it is way past this 70 year old's usual bedtime here in Toronto. I have to be away most of tomorrow. I will come back when I have time.
 
rodgertutt said:
Because it is the influence of its desirability that is causing your will to choose what it does choose.
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So the ice cream is sending out "flavor waves" that compelled me to choose chocolate one time and vanilla the next?

Isn't it easier just to say one time I felt like eating chocolate and the other time I felt like vanilla?

Isn't that the same thing?
 
rodgertutt said:
Because it is the influence of its desirability that is causing your will to choose what it does choose. That is causality not "free will." We will always choose the flavor that is having the strongest influence on our desire unless another stronger influence is present. For example if there is only enough ice cream left of that flavor you want for one person (like your child) then the strongest influence that dictates your choice becomes pleasing your child instead of getting the flavor that you wanted.
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While this might be the Christianity forum, the Tao is said to be accessed "without desire." I'm sure this concept can also be explored in the Christian paradigm. Beyond desire, there is freedom.
Tao Te Ching 1
1

The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and
unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and
unchanging name.

(Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven
and earth; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all
things.

Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

Under these two aspects, it is really the same; but as development
takes place, it receives the different names. Together we call them
the Mystery. Where the Mystery is the deepest is the gate of all that
is subtle and wonderful.​
 
9. Compatibalism

Some find that the facts of determinism are abhorrent and difficult to digest. There are ways to view both determinism and free will as aspects of our mental lives. Because, no matter what the causes of our wishes are, we can still act as we wish. Bertrand Russell (1935) describes this:
“The wish is the cause of action, even if the wish itself has causes. [...] It seems unreasonable to complain of this limitation. [...] Nor does determinism warrant the feeling that we are impotent. Power consists in being able to have intended effects, and this is neither increased nor diminished by the discovery of causes of our intentions.” "Religion and Science" by Bertrand Russell, p163-167
​
Another way of looking it is to say that what we call 'free will' is a state of imagination, that because we can imagine different futures, we have free will, even though our attempt to choose between different actions are really determined by underlaying factors, at least we think we have choice.
“Perhaps the philosopher who has gotten closer to a sensible understanding of free will is Daniel C. Dennett (for example, in his book Elbow Room [MIT Press, 1984]. Dennett rejects any non-naturalistic view of free will, and thinks of the phenomenon [...] as a result of both biological and cultural evolution, "the power to veto our urges and then to veto our vetoes... the power of imagination, to see and image futures." He goes on to say that it is our ability to "see" ahead with our minds, to play in our heads several possible causal scenarios, that "makes us moral agents. You don't need a miracle to have responsibility."” Prof. Massimo Pigliucci (2007)9


from
Free Will - Determinism versus Agency​
 
citizenzen said:
What about the soundness of his life choices? How is it that they are so illogical?
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And just how are they illogical? What is illogical about finding the company and affections of the opposite sex compelling? Are you not being a tad judgemental? 10 lovers is not many, in my book that is about normal and in no way indicative of a compulsive tendency. Additionally he was up-front about it. His wives knew. Maybe they did not like it but he did not keep it secret from them and they were thus given the opportunity to make the decision for themselves whether or not to tolerate it. From what I understand his choice of lover was invariably a highly intelligent and stimulating woman. I just see nothing, but nothing wrong in his behaviour.
 
rodgertutt said:
It's just that I've read many attempts to try to prove we have a "free will," and none of them have been able to refute the logic of the following statement that IMHO renders irrelevant all of the attempts that I have read that try to prove that we do have a "free will."

"We always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influences all of the time? It is simply impossible for anyone to choose what they do not prefer. The fact that they choose it proves that they prefer it at least slightly more than other influences that are almost just as strong. The strongest sets of influences may include all of the influences that have been brought to bear upon us in the past, plus the influence that is being brought to bear upon us right now. But in the final analysis, we always choose whatever the strongest combination of influences CAUSE us to choose."
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With due respect, I think I see what the error is. In line with the presumption of Divine influence (a "modified" version of "the devil made me do it"), is the attempt to dilute or circumvent the definition of choice. There is the erroneous presumption that all choice is completely random and without consideration of impinging factors, which is not the case in any but perhaps the mentally ill.

When faced with a totally arbitrary decision..."should I take the door on the left, or the door on the right?"...all else being equal, we are going to lean to our preferences. But those preferences are not Divinely influenced *only*, and that is where your argument falls apart. Other factors weigh in the decision making process, which itself is developed through a laundry list of experiences. You seem to be implying that the only influence that matters is metaphysical, completely ignoring the physical, mental, emotional, psycho-spiritual, genetic, epi-genetic, social, cultural and other influences that weigh in the balance.

In other words, your argument is false because it is unnecessarily narrowed and doesn't take into consideration other mitigating factors.

Because we "always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influences all of the time" doesn't mean that choice is predetermined by G-d. In fact, if our choices were predetermined, it would undermine everything in every religion that serves to improve the moral and ethical fiber of humanity.

Did you find out anything about the Nephilim?
 
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