There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

He appears to be under its influence. ;)

Under what influence?

Do you mean under the influence of the fact that I always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influences all of the time? If so, you are right about that because it is simply impossible for me to choose what I do not prefer. The fact that I choose it proves that I prefer it at least slightly more than other influences that are almost just as strong.

Same thing is true for everyone else too.

Therefore there is no such a thing as "free will."
 
It is obvious that you rely on absolute statements more than any other being that has ever existed in the entire universe. :D
 
It is obvious that you rely on absolute statements more than any other being that has ever existed in the entire universe. :D

If I knew how every other being in the universe thinks I might agree with you. :)
 
Do you mean under the influence of the fact that I always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influences all of the time?

I am not seattlegal, nor do I play her on tv, but I'll take a stab at this consistant with my earlier comments...

You are assuming that the influence you are under is that of G-d and / or some benevolent *force.* Biblically, that is an erroneous assumption. It is erroneous because it fails to take into account fallen or non-benevolent entities or forces. If there were no non-benevolent entities or states of being, there would be no need for the ethical and moral lessons contained in "G-d's Word."

One must consider that the possibility exists of being in a non-proper state of being in relation to the Divine. "G-d's Word" is a series of lessons designed to bring persons more in line with a proper state of being in relation to the Divine. If one is already doing what the Divine "influences" them to do, then there is no need for ethical and moral lessons to bring them to be more in line with a proper state of being, and the Bible serves no purpose but to waste paper and ink.

In other words, G-d is made a liar if people are not responsible for their own actions. Is G-d a liar?

:D
 
Last edited:
I am not seattlegal, nor do I play her on tv, but I'll take a stab at this consistant with my earlier comments...

You are assuming that the influence you are under is that of G-d and / or some benevolent *force.* Biblically, that is an erroneous assumption. It is erroneous because it fails to take into account fallen or non-benevolent entities or forces. If there were no non-benevolent entities or states of being, there would be no need for the ethical and moral lessons contained in "G-d's Word."

One must consider that the possibility exists of being in a non-proper state of being in relation to the Divine. "G-d's Word" is a series of lessons designed to bring persons more in line with a proper state of being in relation to the Divine. If one is already doing what the Divine "influences" them to do, then there is no need for ethical and moral lessons to bring them to be more in line with a proper state of being, and the Bible serves no purpose but to waste paper and ink.

In other words, G-d is made a liar if people are not responsible for their own actions. Is G-d a liar?

:D

Nope, God's not a liar. We are accountable, but not responsible for our actions. The idea that it wouldn't be right for God to punish us for what we could not help doing is only an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influences all of the time? It is simply impossible for anyone to choose what they do not prefer. The fact that they choose it proves that they prefer it at least slightly more than other influences that are almost just as strong.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
 
Forgive me. I thought that if you were familiar with a term like "kolasis aionian" that you would be familiar with a common term used in Genesis and discussed at length among theologians. My bad.
 
Forgive me. I thought that if you were familiar with a term like "kolasis aionian" that you would be familiar with a common term used in Genesis and discussed at length among theologians. My bad.

Enlighten me.
What are you getting at?
 
Hi Mr. Tutt. I didn't realize at first that you were an elder and wasn't caught up on the thread when I posted. Surely 47 years of marriage speaks for itself. It is likely that you are correct about the whole Free Will thing, yet it really is an oft mis-understood topic. This has always been tricky for all of my friends. I feel it is really more important to value your experience than to see perfectly eye to eye with you. I don't understand why we disagree, but perhaps I will someday.
 
Hi Mr. Tutt. I didn't realize at first that you were an elder and wasn't caught up on the thread when I posted. Surely 47 years of marriage speaks for itself. It is likely that you are correct about the whole Free Will thing, yet it really is an oft mis-understood topic. This has always been tricky for all of my friends. I feel it is really more important to value your experience than to see perfectly eye to eye with you. I don't understand why we disagree, but perhaps I will someday.

Thanks Dream. I'm 70 years old.
But I realize it doesn't make me right just 'cause I'm an old fart. ;)

It's just that I've read many attempts to try to prove we have a "free will," and none of them have been able to refute the logic of the following statement that IMHO renders irrelevant all of the attempts that I have read that try to prove that we do have a "free will."

"We always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influences all of the time? It is simply impossible for anyone to choose what they do not prefer. The fact that they choose it proves that they prefer it at least slightly more than other influences that are almost just as strong. The strongest sets of influences may include all of the influences that have been brought to bear upon us in the past, plus the influence that is being brought to bear upon us right now. But in the final analysis, we always choose whatever the strongest combination of influences CAUSE us to choose."

One of several, (I could list more as I'm sure free willers can too in defence of their position), and perhaps the most convincing writing that has influenced me more than any of the others I have read is
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE by James Coram
click on
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html
IMPORTANT INSTRUCTIONS: The introduction at the beginning of each of the seventeen chapters is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.

Determinism is not a popular belief, but IMHO, from what I've read of the attempts to disprove it, it's logic is simply irrefutable.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks Dream. I'm 70 years old.
But I realize it doesn't make me right just 'cause I'm an old fart. ;)

I'll certainly second that notion.

But if circular reasoning made one smart, you'd be up there with Einstein.

Here, let me paraphrase your logic once more...
We always choose based upon the strongest influence.

It must be the strongest influence, otherwise we wouldn't have chosen it.

And what exactly can we glean from this choice bit of wisdom? Nothing! Congratulations! You've lived a long life and in the end your words of wisdom add up to nothing.

That either makes you a Zen Master or a fool.

Guess which one I suspect.
 
I'll certainly second that notion.

But if circular reasoning made one smart, you'd be up there with Einstein.

Here, let me paraphrase your logic once more...
We always choose based upon the strongest influence.

It must be the strongest influence, otherwise we wouldn't have chosen it.
And what exactly can we glean from this choice bit of wisdom? Nothing! Congratulations! You've lived a long life and in the end your words of wisdom add up to nothing.

That either makes you a Zen Master or a fool.

Guess which one I suspect.

Why not check out this link that I posted on my last post.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html

It just might be the strongest influence that will change your mind.
It sure changed my mind!
IMPORTANT INSTRUCTIONS: The introduction at the beginning of each of the seventeen chapters is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.

BTW I used to be a staunch "free-willer."
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Why not check out this link that I posted on my last post.

Ohhhh... so God made you use circular reasoning.

That must mean God uses circular reasoning too... since we're "made in his image".

I had my suspicions, but you've help to make it clearer to me... God is a logical fallacy.
 
Ohhhh... so God made you use circular reasoning.

That must mean God uses circular reasoning too... since we're "made in his image".

I had my suspicions, but you've help to make it clearer to me... God is a logical fallacy.

It makes me smile to see how you ignore the challenge to read what changed my mind about "free will."

It's as if the strongest influence is causing you to want to avoid considering why some of us changed our minds. :)

We find the argument of "circular reasoning" to be totally irrelevant.

I was a "free willer" for about half of my life, but I found the evidence to the contrary to be a much stronger influence!! :)

Why not check out this link.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html

It just might be the strongest influence that will change your mind.
It sure changed my mind!
IMPORTANT INSTRUCTIONS: The introduction at the beginning of each of the seventeen chapters is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.
 
rodgertutt said:
Thanks Dream. I'm 70 years old.
But I realize it doesn't make me right just 'cause I'm an old fart. ;)
True. This is just a forum, so its not really an issue, but this is an important protocol.(1Tim5, among others.) Really, it is a good idea for any community, not just Christian ones.

Elders are men & women that have proven beyond question their hearts are toward their communities. You want good and proven people to take positions of responsibility, so you must start by giving them respect when they have done so. In exchange, they are required to lead, to carry the load. The respect is part of what makes it work.
 
Hey, I read a little of your previous link and found it a bunch of Christian philosophy.

Problem is, I'm not a Christian. I'm Buddhist and atheistic. So the idea of reading page after page of that stuff is NOT my idea of a good time.

As for logic being irrelevant to you... yeah... I could sense that.

OK that explains a lot. But IMHO the contents of the link I posted demonstrates that your logic is not sound.
I think that anyone who reads that link will find it to be sound logic, not "Christian philosophy."
Of course, each person will make up their own mind about that based on what they perceive to be the strongest influence. :)
Does that not of itself prove my case? ;)
 
BTW did anyone notice that the Toronto Blue Jays just swept a series from the world series champions. How about that eh!!
 
Back
Top