There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[juantoo3]

I did post this in another thread, and it must be meant that I found it. I forgot I wrote it.

It is sufficient to know He (G-d) exists, and that things are going as He intends. When they are not going as He intends it is not by His hand, but by those humans that dare to intervene. And we dare, far too often, because of this little glitch in our system called "rational mind." The Knowledge of Good and Evil formed a curtain that separates us from Him, clouds our better judgement, prevents us from continually remaining in His "will," and requires us to seek Him mentally, spiritually and ultimately physically.

 

[rodgertutt]

Where we have some difficulty, and I am respectfully requesting you to refrain, is for people posting and reposting links to sites that are specifically intended to recruit or proselytise.
Frankly, I have not looked at any of your links, and have no intention of doing so.

If you were to read the links I think you would find them apologetical and not "recruiting or proseytising."

If the thoughts are indeed your own, how about expanding on them without repeating yourself?

If I knew how, I would do that. But I don't know how.

 

[Quahom1]

Most of the words are my own.

But sometimes others can say what I want to say better than I can it myself. That is why I guide people to what others say about the subject.

I did not start this thread, but I agree with its subject title.
There is no such thing as 'Free Will'
Don't know why Azure24 left the thread, do you?

I apologize. I was out of line.

v/r

Q

 

[rodgertutt]

When things are not going as God intends it is not by His hand, but by those humans that dare to intervene.

Everything is always going as God intends.
C.S. Lewis wrote, "The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all the time.
I agree with that.

The Knowledge of Good and Evil prevents us from continually remaining in His "will," .

No one is ever out of God's will.
It is God's decretive will (that which MUST occur) that because we are all sinners by nature and cannot help but sin (which means miss the mark) because we are spiritually "dead in trespasses and sin," we ALL will violate His preceptive (not perceptive) will e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE (that which we OUGHT to do) as much as we actually do. See Romans 3:10-18 which is the condition of everyone without exception.

I believe that God justly imposes accountability on everyone even though they cannot help but do what they do, because through His intimate sovereign control of how far He lets everyone get involved in sinning and suffering (until He intervenes for each one by His sovereign grace) God is going to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that is uniquely applied to each individual.

Contrary to what many people think, this does not cause us to live careless sinful lives because we love, and very much want to please a God like this.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

 

[Quahom1]

Everything is always going as God intends.
C.S. Lewis wrote, "The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all the time.
I agree with that.



No one is ever out of God's will.
It is God's decretive will (that which MUST occur) that because we are all sinners by nature and cannot help but sin (which means miss the mark) because we are spiritually "dead in trespasses and sin," we ALL will violate His preceptive (not perceptive) will e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE (that which we OUGHT to do) as much as we actually do. See Romans 3:10-18 which is the condition of everyone without exception.

I believe that God justly imposes accountability on everyone even though they cannot help but do what they do, because through His intimate sovereign control of how far He lets everyone get involved in sinning and suffering (until He intervenes for each one by His sovereign grace) God is going to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that is uniquely applied to each individual.

Contrary to what many people think, this does not cause us to live careless sinful lives because we love, and very much want to please a God like this.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

Apologetical link
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

But Lewis was speaking "of" Angels. Man is an unknown, and a delight to God because of his unknown nature. It's like God blinded himself to what Man might or might not do...odd, I agree...non the less, one for consideration...

We are a little "lower" than angels, but one day we will judge over them. Would you or would you not agree?

 

[rodgertutt]

We are a little "lower" than angels, but one day we will judge over them. Would you or would you not agree?

I agree because of Psalm 8:5, and Hebews 2:7&9

 

[rodgertutt]

It's like God blinded himself to what Man might or might not do...odd, I agree...non the less, one for consideration...

Something else to consider.

The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, and He delighteth in his way. Psam 37:23

The word "good" was added by the translators.
It was not in the original text.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

 

[rodgertutt]

It is right —it really is— that men should do awful things that they might experience awful consequences (viz., sin, guilt, shame and suffering); for God has need of just such creatures as those who have known these very experiences and in the very varieties as those with which we are acquainted.

In light of the fact that God is operating all (Eph. 1:11), it becomes evident that this is so. God is by no means operating all according to the whims of caprice, but according to the counsel of His will. We live, move, and have our being, for the sake of God’s own purpose (1Cor. 8:6).

The eventual end result for everyone will be glorious.
APOLOGETICAL LINK
THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

 

[juantoo3]

I took the liberty of editing links from a couple of your last posts as you have already posted those links repeatedly. I don't recognize this last one and will let it stand for the moment.

I do appreciate you making an effort to discuss this rather than what you were doing before.

If I knew how, I would do that. But I don't know how.

I would ask one simple question for you to consider, an answer here is not necessary.

If this were a matter that G-d wanted you to clearly understand, wouldn't this stuff just stick to your brain and come to you naturally and flow out like a wellspring without everybody else's material?

Again, no one here needs the answer. The answer to the question is for you.

 

[rodgertutt]

I would ask one simple question for you to consider, an answer here is not necessary.
If this were a matter that G-d wanted you to clearly understand, wouldn't this stuff just stick to your brain and come to you naturally and flow out like a wellspring without everybody else's material?

Everything I know I have learned from someone else.

 

[shawn]

Thanks juan.
I like to hear all kinds of points of view as it is mentally stimulating, but repetition which becomes excessive which is a blanket answer for all questions is way out of line.
So thanks for stepping in and maybe, thereby, an old dog can learn some new tricks
The only time someone is too old to learn something new is when they are dead.

 

[Marsh]

"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not.

We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists.
Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference.
For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.

One cannot prefer what is not yet preferable.
Yet when it becomes preferable it is preferred."

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

No sir, you're not getting off that easy. I pointed out a serious flaw in your reasoning, and you reply to me with an undocumented quotation?

For the love of God, will you please just admit that you don't know what you're talking about? You already told Q that you don't know how to express your own words. If you truly knew what you were talking about, you'd find a way.

Q, you were in no way out of line. This is intellectual Darwinism in action-- a true JS Mills test of merit in action, and from what I can see, the ideas expressed by Rodger are going the way of the Dodo bird.

Rodger, since you are the one making the assertion, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove your assertion, not on US to prove it's not true. You have a responsibility to either prove your assertion (you, by the strength of your own ideas based on your own understanding, not simply quoting somebody else who you may or may not fully understand). If you cannot do so, please have the courtesy of admitting that what you're saying isn't necessarily true.

 

[citizenzen]

I find it really interesting is that this thread has gone on for over 1,000 posts. What is it about an old man repeating the same message over and over that is so fascinating? I guarantee you, if he were capable of a normal discussion, this thread would have been over long ago. He would have had his say, we would have had ours and that would be that. But for some reason his inability to articulate his message or engage in debate has given this thread bizarre and incredible longevity.

I wonder why? It is curious.

I think it's a little of the old sword-in-the-stone appeal.

[king]"Who can break this man of his stubborn and naive beliefs? He who can accomplish it shall have my daughter's hand and shall rule my kingdom!"[/king]

And we all line up and give it a pull, only to eventually leave, befuddled that someone could be so obstinate and jejune. It is hard to pass up a challenge. And it's hard to believe he can be that dense. One more pull... then he'll see the light.

Wait... okay... one more pull. AAARRRrrrrrrggg!

One more pull. NNNNnnNnnnnnnnggggghhh!

One more pull...

Any other theories?

 

[juantoo3]

Everything I know I have learned from someone else.

That is probably true of everybody, but it evades the point.

If this material is yours, and it is of G-d, don't you think you should be able to respond freely in your own words (or as the spirit moves you) without resorting to repetition?

Again, the answer is unimportant to anybody else, merely something for you to consider.

 

[juantoo3]

Wait... okay... one more pull. AAARRRrrrrrrggg!

One more pull. NNNNnnNnnnnnnnggggghhh!

One more pull...

Any other theories?

LOL! I think you got it CZ.

My bad was in not looking before I leapt, I've been away for a bit. To his credit Roger is not responsible for the entire 1000 posts, this was started a couple years ago by someone else, to whom I responded way back then. I kinda doubt Roger took any time to read it from the beginning tho'.

P.S., for Roger's benefit, my arguments have not changed either, but I can express them in a wide variety of ways as the need suits. I am also open to considering those points where I might possibly be mistaken, but I have usually spent considerable thought before I ever come to any conclusion.

 

[juantoo3]

No sir, you're not getting off that easy. I pointed out a serious flaw in your reasoning, and you reply to me with an undocumented quotation?

Hey Marsh! It's been awhile, how's things your way?

I suspect Roger will likely keep a deathgrip on what he feels is some profound mysterious truth in spite of any logical persuasions.

But then, this is the kind of stuff that drives Christianity into all sorts of denominations, is it not?

 

[citizenzen]

P.S., for Roger's benefit, my arguments have not changed either, but I can express them in a wide variety of ways as the need suits.

I think this is a key point. It's because we're able to express ourselves that we're able of demonstrate that our beliefs are reasonable (as reasonable as faith can be).

But Rodger hasn't been able to present his case in a reasonable or logical manner. So we are enticed to respond in the vain hope that a rational argument would have impact.

I just find it interesting and counterintuitive to find that being a poor conversationalist can actually promote conversation.

Sometimes life just doesn't make sense.

 

[juantoo3]

I think this is a key point. It's because we're able to express ourselves that we're able of demonstrate that our beliefs are reasonable (as reasonable as faith can be).

But Rodger hasn't been able to present his case in a reasonable or logical manner. So we are enticed to respond in the vain hope that a rational argument would have impact.

I just find it interesting and counterintuitive to find that being a poor conversationalist can actually promote conversation.

Sometimes life just doesn't make sense.

Good point.

I think we tend to take exception to those that feel the need to shout from rooftops...with bullhorns...as if volume or repetition somehow confer legitimacy. Eh...

Goodness knows I've voiced thoughts that were not well received before, but at least I have the presence of mind (or at least I hope so) to know when I am not being received and move along...

 

[Quahom1]

Something else to consider.

The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, and He delighteth in his way. Psam 37:23

The word "good" was added by the translators.
It was not in the original text.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

Sir, that is not true.
The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, and He delighteth in his way. Psam 37:23
The term "Good" was translated from the Greek word equivelent "Piused". Nothing was added. What else is a piused man but "good"? Unless your intent is to equate Pius with the Pope called "Pius XII" and the "Holocaust" instead of its original intent...?

 

[seattlegal]

Sir, that is not true.
The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, and He delighteth in his way. Psam 37:23
The term "Good" was translated from the Greek word equivelent "Piused". Nothing was added. What else is a piused man but "good"? Unless your intent is to equate Pius with the Pope called "Pius XII" and the "Holocaust" instead of its original intent...?

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
The Hebrew reads "geber" or able bodied man, strong man, like the "mighty ones" in Genesis 6:4