Marsh
Disagreeable By Nature
Interesting analogy. To me, it's more like an intellectual car wreck, and we're all rubber-necking as we drive by...
There is no such thing as 'Free Will'
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Interesting analogy. To me, it's more like an intellectual car wreck, and we're all rubber-necking as we drive by...
bob x
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CZ: very much reminds me of the "Obama birth certificate" thread, remember that guy?
citizenzen
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Dragonseer
Soul Searcher
One can also consider free will a myth if one believes that everyone--every soul--is, over time, working his/her way back to God. If we're all going to get "there" eventually, wouldn't that mean that we don't really have free will in terms of remaining "cut off" from God? Just my $.02.
R
rodgertutt
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IMO "free" will is an illusion.
Our will is only "free" to choose the choice that we prefer the most.
We may try to insist that we could have chosen something other than the choice that we did make. But the fact that we actually did choose that choice demonstrates that, at that particluar split second in time, we did in fact prefer that choice at least slightly more than some other choice.
Maybe others can perceive that as having a "free" will.
I can't.
We have a "will" alright. But like I said, it is is only "free" to choose the choice that we prefer the most.
I think Martin Luther got it right in his BONDAGE OF THE WILL
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html
Luther wrote. "there can be no such thing as—"Free-will!"
I agree!
Our will is only "free" to choose the choice that we prefer the most.
We may try to insist that we could have chosen something other than the choice that we did make. But the fact that we actually did choose that choice demonstrates that, at that particluar split second in time, we did in fact prefer that choice at least slightly more than some other choice.
Maybe others can perceive that as having a "free" will.
I can't.
We have a "will" alright. But like I said, it is is only "free" to choose the choice that we prefer the most.
I think Martin Luther got it right in his BONDAGE OF THE WILL
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html
Luther wrote. "there can be no such thing as—"Free-will!"
I agree!
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Dragonseer
Soul Searcher
Sometime between reading your response to my thread on Bible translations/versions, your post on the Catholic nun who was ex-communicated and this response, I've decided that I like you, Dogbrain.
DS
R
rodgertutt
Guest
Sometime between reading your response to my thread on Bible translations/versions, your post on the Catholic nun who was ex-communicated and this response, I've decided that I like you, Dogbrain.
The influence of what Dogbrain said caused you to like him.
You like him because you perceive that to you he is likable.
The strongest influence (i.e. the words that he wrote) caused you to decide to like him.
IMO, based on what Dogbrain said that impressed you, it was impossible for you not to like him.
So much for "free" will.
immortalitylost
Say Meow.
I love that the answer to something as big as free will doesn't even really matter. I mean, if we ever did find the answer, it wouldn't change anything, so why must we know? This makes me giggle.
Oh and rodgertutt, what your talking about sounds pretty much like causal determinism. I don't think it's a matter of people not understanding you, I think it's mostly a matter of them not agreeing with you. Don't take it personal. We all see the world through our own perspectives, lol.
Oh and rodgertutt, what your talking about sounds pretty much like causal determinism. I don't think it's a matter of people not understanding you, I think it's mostly a matter of them not agreeing with you. Don't take it personal. We all see the world through our own perspectives, lol.
Gatekeeper
Shades of Reason
Some believe in free will, while others believe that all things have been determined for us. I think I rest somewhere in the middle, believing that God ultimately controls where we are and the things we face on a daily basis, but I also believe that our choices determine where we end up in the end. I believe that God is all that exists (Everything) and that all things make up a part of His reality. Having said that, everything is subject to existence (God). It doesn't matter whether one believes in free will or lack thereof. Things are what they are and we must deal with our reality the best we can. Debating the issue is pointless
Here's my view:
Imagine that you are the Captain of a ship. God is the force that moves the ship forward. He pushes the ship giving it momentum, but 'you' are still guiding the ship yourself. All things play a part in our decision making - Just like a change of wind direction should move us to re-arrange the sails. We navigate the obstacles between here and there ourselves, and we do so in accordance to our life circumstance.
We set our sails, and guide the ship how we choose, but life circumstance ultimately moves us to make changes in navigation. What I'm suggesting is that I think control is somewhat an illusion - God is in control as He is the creator of all things and is all things, we merely make our decisions based on our environments. Even so, our choices are real and work for either our benefit or our detriment.
The rock strewn shore will always be there. We, as the Captain of our own ship, need to recognize the light house. If we fail to take heed to the light, the ship is bound to hit the shoreline. That is where free will choice comes into play. We learn from our sunken ships (mistakes), or we don't. We can embrace the light house (Love), or we can continue to neglect the benefits of living by its grace.
Free will is ultimately isolated to ones willingness and/or ability to learn from our experiences and our environments. God (Who is all things) "moves" us to make decisions (Being that we are a part of His own). He is in control of where we are, but it's up to us to navigate the ship around the obstacles along the way.
Peace,
GK
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I think it's a balancing act between surrender and self-reliance.
Both need to play a part in our lives and choices.
R
rodgertutt
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Ain't no such a thing as "free" will.
Our choices are always determined by our preferences.
Our choices are always determined by our preferences.
citizenzen
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Welcome back Rodger.
R
rodgertutt
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Welcome back Rodger.
Couldn't help coming back.
It was not even possible for me to have chosen not to come back.
Preference rules.
Gatekeeper
Shades of Reason
I am a bit curious what uncontrollable influence compels you to keep coming back to this thread?
Rodger .... may I ask what it is you desire here? Can you pinpoint the reason for your determination. Can what compels you be changed or are you a slave to your desire? If a slave, what do you think can set you free, or is freedom an illusion as well. If freedom is also an illusion, whats the freaking point of striving to become a better person?
What exactly are you trying to do? Do you think it wise or unwise to demand that your views are factual when others view it all differently? What good could possibly come from you insisting that free will is a myth?
Some of us have made great strides bettering our own realities. Some of us have gained a very real sense of self accomplishment in the process. Would you wish to strip us of that sense of self accomplishment ... One which gives us hope and strength to face another day.
There must be a reason behind the madness man!
GK
Rodger .... may I ask what it is you desire here? Can you pinpoint the reason for your determination. Can what compels you be changed or are you a slave to your desire? If a slave, what do you think can set you free, or is freedom an illusion as well. If freedom is also an illusion, whats the freaking point of striving to become a better person?
What exactly are you trying to do? Do you think it wise or unwise to demand that your views are factual when others view it all differently? What good could possibly come from you insisting that free will is a myth?
Some of us have made great strides bettering our own realities. Some of us have gained a very real sense of self accomplishment in the process. Would you wish to strip us of that sense of self accomplishment ... One which gives us hope and strength to face another day.
There must be a reason behind the madness man!
GK
R
rodgertutt
Guest
My primary objective is to assure Bible believing Christians that the Bible does not teach that the will of anyone can successfully defeat God's intention to eventually bring never ending positive blessings to everyone.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
Gatekeeper
Shades of Reason
It seems to me that our willful desires must first be changed before we are able to partake in the never ending positive blessings that God has for us. The world we live in is not exactly an ideal place for an unwilled change of heart, bro. Which is why many of us have that very real sense of self accomplishment.
If I can defeat some of the many demons I've faced in my past, I can conquer anything thrown at me today. If it wasn't me who did the changing, or conjured up the gumption TO change, why the hell did I go through what I did, and why was it necessary to lose so much of my life during that period?
It's easy to go with the flow, never thinking we can ever change anything, but the road less traveled is surely one where we be taking the steps ourselves.
Here's a good video:
Mountains
R
rodgertutt
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As a Christian universal transformationist, here is my point of view.
I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.
I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do (e.g. the golden rule).
I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.
Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by Christian universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe. I've had it memorized for many years and love to quote it frequently.
“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”
I love that quote!
I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.
I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do (e.g. the golden rule).
I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.
Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by Christian universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe. I've had it memorized for many years and love to quote it frequently.
“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”
I love that quote!
Gatekeeper
Shades of Reason
Roger, I'm not opposed to universal reconciliation. What I'm opposed to is the idea that we have no part in the positive changes many of us experience in life.
Dude, I've seen people who lived in the worse part of the city, where drugs are sold on every corner, where gangs run the streets, who were caught up in that way of life for years, become a light to the hopeless who lived there.
If you understood how difficult it is to overcome obstacles like that, you'd damn sure realize that this kind of change doesn't come easy, or without a willful desire to better yourself.
This guy (To this day) still lives there, and he goes out on a limb daily (Risking his own life) to help others do the same. It is people like that that moves me to become a better person myself. To know that he has enough will power to not only change his life for the better but others too, shows me that we [do] play a part in where we end up in life, and in the choices we make (Difficult as they may be sometimes).
You can believe what you wish about free will, but don't expect me to follow suit. I've seen too much in this life to believe that we play no part in what we choose.
GK
Dude, I've seen people who lived in the worse part of the city, where drugs are sold on every corner, where gangs run the streets, who were caught up in that way of life for years, become a light to the hopeless who lived there.
If you understood how difficult it is to overcome obstacles like that, you'd damn sure realize that this kind of change doesn't come easy, or without a willful desire to better yourself.
This guy (To this day) still lives there, and he goes out on a limb daily (Risking his own life) to help others do the same. It is people like that that moves me to become a better person myself. To know that he has enough will power to not only change his life for the better but others too, shows me that we [do] play a part in where we end up in life, and in the choices we make (Difficult as they may be sometimes).
You can believe what you wish about free will, but don't expect me to follow suit. I've seen too much in this life to believe that we play no part in what we choose.
GK
R
rodgertutt
Guest
It may be a help to be able to believe, as I do, that everyone is making the degree of progress that they are supposed to be making at any given point in time. They may think they are achieving it because of their "free" will. But I find strength in being able to believe that it is because of God's will for each unique individual.
As the Bible puts it,
“God works ALL things according to the counsel of His own will” Ephesians 1:11
Not all things minus our so called "free" will.
I like the way Martin Zender puts it.
"Remember this: we all have wills, they are just not free.
Then why do we even exist? Why do our wills exist? Is God playing chess with Himself? Why does He even need us? Why does He bother making us think that we’re free?
It is in this perceived realm of freedom that we live and learn. God has given us the gift of NOT FEELING HIS CONTROL, and it is this gift that allows us to struggle with decisions, suffer for mistakes, and revel in the overcoming of obstacles.
It is this gift that allows us to turn to Him with tears both of sorrow and of joy.
The idea, friends, is to bring us in humble adoration to His feet. If it takes a sovereign God to assure that we come to this blessed place, then let’s let Him be sovereign—at the same time reveling in our perceived (not actual) freedom." end of quote
As the Bible puts it,
“God works ALL things according to the counsel of His own will” Ephesians 1:11
Not all things minus our so called "free" will.
I like the way Martin Zender puts it.
"Remember this: we all have wills, they are just not free.
Then why do we even exist? Why do our wills exist? Is God playing chess with Himself? Why does He even need us? Why does He bother making us think that we’re free?
It is in this perceived realm of freedom that we live and learn. God has given us the gift of NOT FEELING HIS CONTROL, and it is this gift that allows us to struggle with decisions, suffer for mistakes, and revel in the overcoming of obstacles.
It is this gift that allows us to turn to Him with tears both of sorrow and of joy.
The idea, friends, is to bring us in humble adoration to His feet. If it takes a sovereign God to assure that we come to this blessed place, then let’s let Him be sovereign—at the same time reveling in our perceived (not actual) freedom." end of quote
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