There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

Hi all,

Ok, to ourselves we are all correct. But only to ourselves. I don't intend to quote anyone, I don't intend to answer anyone's questions. I made this thread naively thinking I could convince some and some agreed with me. Fair enough you don't agree, but don't try to make agree with you. Most threads on this website are people's opinions, I find most these debate discussion futile. So as of now don't try to prove to me you are correct because niether of us are. Quote me if you want, but I want answer (or even read this thread any further.

May God be with you all,
Ovi
 
Hi all,
I just want to say something again. I belive God is Sovereign but why do you think the world is the way it is today? If it is because of us then why can't God do something about it?

Is the world full of randomness? Does God really not know how it will all end?

The answer to this question is Romans 9:12-25! I advise everyone to read it(and ALL of it carefully!), then you will know why!...
 
Romans chapters 9-11 deal primarily with Paul's concern with Israel. So it is with this in mind that we need to carefully approach this passage of scripture in context to this issue.

God, through Abraham, had a plan (which actually started all the was back to Adam and Eve, but here we are dealing with Israel). It concerned the redemption of Israel and subsequently, through the instrument of Israel, the redemption of mankind. So God's dealings from Abraham to the advent of Christ centered on the children of Israel through whom came the Savior.

For God to accomplish His plan, He took steps to ensure that Abraham's descendants took the proper steps toward the goal of bringing in the Savior. It was a long process involving some 2000 years. So when we read passages like "Jacob have I loved, but Esau I have hated", we should not look at it as if to say that God had some vendetta against Esau, but rather He favored Jacob in using him to carry out the redemptive plan. True, Esau sold his birthright and so forth, but was that a greater sin than Jacob stealing Esau's blessing from Isaac? The truth of the matter is that Jacob was to be the line through which Christ would be born, even before these twins were born.

Take a look at the passage of scripture:

"And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them." - Genesis 25:21-26

Two nations were in Rebekkah's womb. God is regarding not individuals, but nations in the matter of Jacob and Esau. Jacob would become the seed lineage to Christ. But isn't it interesting that the elder will serve the younger. And I find that this is a picture of Christ in relation to Adam. Adam, the son of God (Luke 3:38) would be subjected to Jesus Christ, the Son of God (see Romans 5:12-19, I Cor 15:45-47). So we see here how God is writing the Gospel in Moses and the Prophets, testifying of Christ who is to come, Jacob being the type of the second man.

Later, in Genesis 32-33, we see the two brothers gloriously reconciled.

Later, Esau's decendants (Edom) became a vassel to the nation Israel under King David, just as predicted by the Lord before the two were born. Eventually, the Edomites were conquered by the Israelites some two hundred years before Christ, as prophesized in Obadiah.

The point being that everything that God did in the Old Testament was geared toward the redemptive plan. There was a guidiance of the Israelite toward that purpose, but within that guidance God granted some autonomy on behalf of individuals, a certain amount of leeway, so long as it didn't interfere with God's goals. Sometimes God had to work around people due to disobedience. A perfect example of this is found in Genesis 38.

Judah, one of the 12 sons of Jacob, and the eventual lineage, needed to continue his line. But his first born son, Er, was wicked and God slew him. So Judah had Onan, his second born, go into Tamar (Er's widow) for the purpose of conception. But alas, Onan pulled out, as it were, thereby not impregnating Tamar, and God slew him also for not obeying. Onan thwarted the line. It was important that the line continue. So now Judah had to wait until his third son, Shelah, to become of age before giving Tamar to him. But Tamar couldn't wait, because Judah must have forgotten to give Shelah when he came of age, so Tamar went into Judah, and from there the line continued.

It would have been nice if Er was righteous or Onan was obedience, or Judah remembered to give Tamar to Shelah. But in the midst of all that mess, rifed with sinful actions on all parties, God managed to bring forth His will in spite of all that.
 
Hi Azure —

If there is no free will ... what is the point of the Bible?

Thomas
 
Now I said all that to say this:

God accomplished what He planned. In this He is Sovereign. His purpose of Israel and the eventual advent of the Messiah was culminated at Calvary. And in the course of world events, He still in the process of redeeming the world. But on an individual level, I believe that He generally allows us to do what we will, in hopes that we will do His will. If we don't, either He will encourage us to do so, or He will find someone else, just as He did with Er and Onan. But in the end, His plan will be done, regardless of our disobedience.
 
I refer you to the phrase 'follow me' ... if man did not possess free will, the phrase would be superfluous.

Matthew 16:24:
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."
The big word here is "if" ... that implies freedom of choice.

Thomas
 
Hi all,


Thomas we're speaking of God not Jesus...

There are MANY things that God does that we as mortals are NOT TO IMITATE! God "makes war in righteousness"--we cannot. God KILLS and brings back to life again--we cannot.

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord DIRECTS HIS STEPS" (Prov. 16:9).

God could have just as easily said: "...the Lord directs HIS WAY" It's all the same to God.

"Man's goings [Heb: steps] ARE OF THE LORD: how can a man then understand HIS OWN WAY? [it matters not if our steps are good or sinful]" (Prov. 20:24).

"For now thou NUMBEREST my steps [THAT'S pretty specific, don't you think]: dost thou NOT watch over my SIN?" (Job 14:16).

"The steps ['steps' is used to symbolize ALL OF MANS DOINGS] OF A MAN ARE ordered [Heb: established] by the Lord" (Psa. 37:23). If ALL man's steps are "established", then of necessity they are ordered by God IN ADVANCE of him taking those ordered steps...
 
I said I wouldn't but...

Thomas said:
Hi Azure —

If there is no free will ... what is the point of the Bible?

Thomas
Click to expand...

How can you say this If you do not understand what i am saying...

The scripture's (not Bible's) point is to understand God's plan...

And Dondi I don't think you read this properly (show me your interpretation if you will...)

And so, if all is of God (the good and bad), why does He hold us accountable for our sins and deeds?

"For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you [Pharaoh] My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth. Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be PROTESTING to me, then, 'Why, then is He [God] STILL BLAMING [us for our sins]? for who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?'" Paul answers this way: "O man! WHO ARE YOU, TO BE SURE, WHO ARE ANSWERING AGAIN TO GOD? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER, 'Why do you make me thus [a sinner unable and unwilling by my own fabled 'free will' to ever do what is right]?' Or has not the potter [God] the right over the clay [us mortals] out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:17-21).

Over to you Dondi...
 
Again, Pharoah was part of God's plan in dealing with Israel. We know the reason, "...so that My Name should be published the entire earth..." The whole Exodus thing is a type of the Gospel of Christ. As far as Pharoah is concerned, God knows his heart. And since it was already predisposed againt letting Israel go, God used him to show greater things to the world. Do you not think that God could have just killed off every Egyptian and that would have solved the problem, without having to go through all those plagues? But you see, in the long run, He did have mercy on the Egyptians by not killing them all off. But in God's infinite wisdom, He was demonstrating both His mercy and power to the Egyptians, to the Israelites, and to the rest of the world. In fact, if you look at the ten plagues God sent, it started out small, but got worse and worse until the tenth plague killed off the first-born son.

He's only going to harden those who are already stiff-necked. I mean, Pharoah could have just let the Israelites go in the first place and that would be that. God didn't start hardening his heart until after the first time Moses spoke to let his people go. His heart was already hard. But God knew it would be from the start. And actually, God didn't harden Pharoah's heart until He heard Moses complain:

"And Moses said before the LORD, Behold, I am of uncircumcised lips, and how shall Pharaoh hearken unto me? And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land. And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt." - Exodus 6:30, 7:1-3

See, God hardened Pharoah's heart for Moses' and the Israelites sake, for He was teaching the Israelites who is God and give them confidence in Him.

I think God only hardens those who have already made up their mind to resist Him. To whom does He give mercy?

"Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation." - Exodus 15:13

This is speaking of the Israelites. Why did God show mercy to them? Because of the promise He gave to Abraham way back in Genesis 15! Yes, it's mercy to Israel not because of something they did, but because God promised to deliver them and make a great nation through which all the nations of the world will be blessed.

But who else does God give mercy?

"And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." - Exodus 20:6

"Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;" - Deut. 7:9

"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." - Proverbs 28:13

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." - Isaiah 55:7

"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." - Matthew 5:7


That seems to put the ball back in our court, don't it?.
 
IMHO "free will" is an illusion.

I believe that neither personhood nor morality is diminished by the existence of causality.

We do share one thing in common with robots, and that is causality. Everything we believe and do is the product of the combination of strongest influences that have been brought to bear upon our mind at the time.
We always, without exception, choose in the direction of the STRONGEST sets of influences every time.

It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer.
The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it even though there may have been other influences that were almost just as strong. For example, try to believe differently than you do right now. You can't can you? And you won't be able to until/unless stronger influences CAUSE you to do so.

The idea that it would not be right for God to punish us for doing what we could not help but do is merely an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the irrefutable fact that WE ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, CHOOSE IN THE DIRECTION OF THE STRONGEST INFLUENCE, ALL OF THE TIME.

Very few Christians actually believe Ephesians 1:11.
"God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will."

I am so glad that I have a God Who is in intimate sovereign control over all strongest influences, and because of what Christ accomplished for us all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all of the temporary negative consequences of our responses to strongest influences into something better that they temporarily prevailed. And He will eventually do this for every fallen creature without exception.

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IS MAN A FREE MORAL AGENT?
or
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE
 
rodgertutt said:
IMHO "free will" is an illusion.
Click to expand...

You are certainly welcome to your opinion in the matter. Do you mind if I hold a differing opinion?

rodgertutt said:
Everything we believe and do is the product of the combination of strongest influences that have been brought to bear upon our mind at the time.
We always, without exception, choose in the direction of the STRONGEST sets of influences every time.

It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer.


The idea that it would not be right for God to punish us for doing what we could not help but do is merely an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the irrefutable fact that WE ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, CHOOSE IN THE DIRECTION OF THE STRONGEST INFLUENCE, ALL OF THE TIME.

"God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will."
Click to expand...

Do you realize you contradict yourself? You presuppose that G-d, as the strongest influence, will always and ever make a person "choose" in a *good* way or direction.

Therefore, according to you, it is G-d that influences any given mass murderer to take the lives of their victims. Therefore, according to you, there is no such thing as crime, as any action or behavior is acceptable to G-d because, after all, He influenced everybody to do any and everything. Therefore, G-d was just joking when He gave the Commandments to Moses, and there are no behaviors unacceptable, unethical or immoral to Him. Therefore, since there is no such thing as criminal behavior, then there is no further need (there was never *any* need) for persons to be incarcerated and separated from society. And since no person is responsible for their own behavior, then any and all behavior is socially acceptable.

We are all free to run amok, G-d said so, according to what you presented here.

Am I correct in my understanding of what you have written?
 
rodgertutt said:
IMHO "free will" is an illusion.Very few Christians actually believe Ephesians 1:11.
"God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will."
Click to expand...


Rodger the following 2 verses to Ephesian 1:11 tell us that we need to trust and believe. This is our human responsibility based on our free will. Without free will man cannot be co-creator with God. All we can be are some kind of puppet.

Ephesian 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

Between predestination and free will, the overall content of the bible is on the side of free will.
 
I am a "Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist."

I believe that God is 100% responsible for all of the good and all of the evil too, but does not sin by being responsible for it. In other words the temporary prevelence of sin with all of its manifestations is God's idea.

IMHO the arguments of the last several posts are all rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influence all of the time. It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer. The fact that we choose it demonstrates that we prefer it at least slightly more than influences that were almost just as strong. Therefore there is no such a thing as "free will."

I am a "Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist."
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THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS EBY
See especially the very last paragraph on that link.

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

SATAN’S SALVATION ETCETERA - Grace super-exceeding!!!

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THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley

It would have been easy for God to impress upon Satan that it would not temporarily be in his best interest to choose evil, but God didn’t do that because He had (has) an eonian plan to use the temporary existence of evil and suffering to teach lessons. Then at the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time God will eradicate evil and suffering from existence.

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THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Judas and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.

Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries. Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.

But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

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RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS EBY

C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.

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tentmaker books chapter eleven

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.

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AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
or
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

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The Lake of Fire Eby

I BELIEVE THAT NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF GOD'S GRACE WHICH IS ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY INFLUENCE THE MOST STUBBORN OF WILLS AND WILL NOT FAIL TO DO SO.

We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.

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CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
or
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
 
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Azure24:
'Free will' is a myth, God is reposible for everything and He brings about everything only at its precise "appointed seaon and time".
Click to expand...
You are myth-informed.
 
Re: I am a "Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist."

rodgertutt said:
I believe that God is 100% responsible for all of the good and all of the evil too, but does not sin by being responsible for it. In other words the temporary prevelence of sin with all of its manifestations is God's idea.
IMHO the arguments of the last several posts are all rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influence all of the time. It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer. The fact that we choose it demonstrates that we prefer it at least slightly more than influences that were almost just as strong. Therefore there is no such a thing as "free will."
Click to expand...

Rodger, St Paul describes very well the internal conflict of fallen men.
We want and prefer to go one way within our mind but end up doing the opposite with our body. There is a war within us between good and evil
Rom 7: 21-25
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
 
Re: I am a "Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist."

soleil10 said:
Rodger, St Paul describes very well the internal conflict of fallen men.
We want and prefer to go one way within our mind but end up doing the opposite with our body. There is a war within us between good and evil
Rom 7: 21-25
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Click to expand...

Sometimes the strongest influence In Paul's life may have been his slavery to his sinful nature. But probably most often the strongest influence in Paul's life was his reflexive inclination to reach out to His Saviour for deliverance in times of trial.
In either case the strongest influence in Paul's life dicated what he chose just like it does for us all.
 
I'm a theistic fatalist.
I believe in theistic absolute determinism, i.e. God's fulfillment of His decretive will which is that which MUST occur.

I believe everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our efforts to assist it, or prevent it from happening.

I believe that God has a plan that will eradicate all evil and suffering from existence after He has used them to teach all the lesson He wants everyone to learn.
See God's plan for the ages of time.
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THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE

At the consummation of God's plan for the ages of time God will make it plain to everyone that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did --- better than if everything had not happened that way --- as God fits everyone into His master plan in their own unique way.
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THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS EBY
ESPECIALLY READ THE VERY LAST PARAGRAPH ON THAT LINK
 
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