There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[Gatekeeper]

It may be a help to be able to believe, as I do, that everyone is making the degree of progress that they are supposed to be making at any given point in time. They may think they are achieving it because of their "free" will. But I find strength in being able to believe that it is because of God's will for each unique individual.
As the Bible puts it,
“God works ALL things according to the counsel of His own will” Ephesians 1:11
Not all things minus our so called "free" will.

We were 'predestined' according to Gods will to experience evil in this life, but each individuals life is not predetermined. Meaning that we are not on rails, man. We can change direction at our choosing.

Sure, we are influenced by many things, but it is our hearts desire that we choose in the end. You speak as if everyone will escape the calamity in life, yet not all do. Some remain in the thralls of hell simply because they haven't enough faith in themselves to change. God shines his light, but it is up to us to take off the shades. He doesn't force His will upon our will, which is why evil exists in the first place.

GK

 

[Gatekeeper]

Not all things minus our so called "free" will.

I like the way Martin Zender puts it.

"Remember this: we all have wills, they are just not free.

Then why do we even exist? Why do our wills exist? Is God playing chess with Himself? Why does He even need us? Why does He bother making us think that we’re free?

It is in this perceived realm of freedom that we live and learn. God has given us the gift of NOT FEELING HIS CONTROL, and it is this gift that allows us to struggle with decisions, suffer for mistakes, and revel in the overcoming of obstacles.
It is this gift that allows us to turn to Him with tears both of sorrow and of joy.

The idea, friends, is to bring us in humble adoration to His feet. If it takes a sovereign God to assure that we come to this blessed place, then let’s let Him be sovereign—at the same time reveling in our perceived (not actual) freedom." end of quote

Wait, God gave makes us believe a lie, which you view to be a gift, then? This doesn't sound like God at all, being that He is not the father of lies. Why on earth would God make us believe anything but truth? Sorry Roger, the hook just isn't sharp enough to catch this fish.

 

[rodgertutt]

Wait, God gave makes us believe a lie, which you view to be a gift, then? This doesn't sound like God at all, being that He is not the father of lies. Why on earth would God make us believe anything but truth? Sorry Rodger, the hook just isn't sharp enough to catch this fish.

"For God locks up all in unbelief of the truth in order to bestow mercy on all." Romans 11:32 (literal version)

God lets us to believe the lie that we are in control to bring us to the place where we realize experientially that we are not in control.

Note the contrast between one who has absolute confidence in their will-power, and one who has absolute confidence in God instead.

William Ernest Henley VERSUS Dorothea Day

INVICTUS versus MY CAPTAIN

RELIANCE ON WILL-POWER

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

RELIANCE ON GOD

Out of the light that dazzles me,
Bright as the sun from pole to pole
I thank the God I know to be
For Christ the conqueror of my soul.

RELIANCE ON WILL-POWER

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

RELIANCE ON GOD

Since His the sway of circumstance,
I would not wince nor cry aloud,
Under that rule which men call chance
My head with joy is humbly bowed.

RELIANCE ON WILL-POWER

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

RELIANCE ON GOD

Beyond this place of sin and tears
That life with Him! And His the aid,
Despite the menace of the years,
Keeps, and shall keep me, unafraid.

RELIANCE ON WILL-POWER

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

RELIANCE ON GOD

I have no fear, though strait the gate,
He cleared from punishment the scroll
Christ is the Master of my fate,
Christ is the Captain of my soul.

William Ernest Henley VERSUS Dorothea Day

 

[rodgertutt]

You speak as if everyone will escape the calamity in life, yet not all do. GK

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

That's the kind of God I love and worship.

 

[Dogbrain]

Any "Christian" who denies the existence of free will worships a "God" who is more evil than is Satan. Because, if there is no free will, then the damned have been damned on account of and by the responsibility of this "God". There was never any possibility of choice on the part of the damned, meaning they bear no responsibility for their damnation.

If there is no free will, then God is the most evil being in existence.

 

[rodgertutt]

Any "Christian" who denies the existence of free will worships a "God" who is more evil than is Satan. Because, if there is no free will, then the damned have been damned on account of and by the responsibility of this "God". There was never any possibility of choice on the part of the damned, meaning they bear no responsibility for their damnation.

If there is no free will, then God is the most evil being in existence.

"DAMNATION"
Etymology of the Word "Damn"
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellEncyclopedia/WordDamn.htm

 

[rodgertutt]

if there is no free will, then the damned have been damned on account of and by the responsibility of this "God". .

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about the subject.
Chapter Eleven

 

[shawn]

The pointless "old chestnut" (referring to the ideology herein being discussed) raises its head yet again.

In this thread we see the futility of the obsessive compulsive disorder.
The compulsive obsession.

 

[rodgertutt]

The pointless "old chestnut" (referring to the ideology herein being discussed) raises its head yet again.
In this thread we see the futility of the obsessive compulsive disorder.
The compulsive obsession.

I prefer to perceive it as "obsessive compulsive order"

Stephen Lewis is a highly respected former leader of the federal New Democratic Party in Canada. Years ago, after leaving politics he started THE STEPHEN LEWIS FOUNDATION to help with the worldwide problems connected to HIV/AIDS, and since its beginning he has helped very many aids victims in very many ways. There is a lot on Google about him and his foundation.

On a talk show he said to the interviewer, “My wife Michele is a well balanced lady. I’m not well balanced. I’m pathologically focused on solving the problem of AIDS.”

His statement made me laugh because I am “pathologically focused” too, and that is on the problems caused by the false doctrine of eternal torment for people who die without becoming a Christian.

I am happy to “suffer” with the same malady as a man the caliber of Stephen Lewis!

Just like Stephen Lewis commits most of his time to his project, so do I commit most of my time to my project of helping people on the internet who have suffered just like I did over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets anyone suffer forever. It caused me to have a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78.

I’m 71 now. I am happy to say that I have already helped many people, and before I die I hope to help many more.

A Humorous aside:
I smile because I’m not so sure that Stephen’s wife is as well balanced as he thinks she is.
She is well known in Canada as a fighter for social justice. In an article in a Toronto newspaper she said to an interviewer, “Fighting for a cause gives your life a shape, a momentum, a larger purpose that is deeply rewarding. No matter how long or how hard the struggle, do not settle for a life of complacency.”

 

[shawn]

I prefer to perceive it as "obsessive compulsive order"

That's nice.

 

[rodgertutt]

That's nice.

Would it not be accurate to say that it is not "futility" when an "ideology" helps people?

The many positive emails that I keep receiving, and the 150 messages in the guest book on my forum show just how much it is helping people.

My guest book only holds 150 messages. Then the oldest ones are automatically deleted to make room for the newest ones.

 

[shawn]

Just goes to show that there is more than one born every day.
I don't see validation for anything other than people's gullibility.
Look at political elections, they renege on their promise and say it was just campaign rhetoric and yet people still vote for them.
This just reveals the stupidity of humanity.

 

[shawn]

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.”

Gene Roddenberry

Interesting quote.

 

[rodgertutt]

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.”
Gene Roddenberry
Interesting quote.

I love and worship a God Who doesn't make mistakes.
Looking back from the consummation of his master plan for the ages of time, I am confident that everyone will then agree that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did; better than if it had not happened that way.

In the conclusion of his article THE PURPOSE OF EVIL, A.P. Adams wrote

"The final outcome of God's plan, so clearly revealed in the scripture, fully confirms the foregoing view and, in fact, irresistibly drives us to that view. All the details and every particular of the plan in all its length and breadth are not revealed, but the result is revealed. And that result, the final outcome, is a perfect and absolute triumph for goodness, truth, and justice.

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall give praise to God." (Rom. 14;11; Is. 45:23). "The whole creation shall be delivered form the bondage of corruption." (Rom. 8:21). "All things in heaven and earth shall be gathered together in Christ." (Eph. 1:10). "Death shall be swallowed up in victory." (I Cor. 15:54). "There shall be no more anything accursed." (Rev. 22:3). "Every created thing shall praise God." (Ps. 102:18). This is the outcome! Thank God, it is good enough! To this final result all things are tending. To such a universal victory we are traveling on. We can see it by faith afar off.

I cannot doubt that good shall fall
At last, far off, at last to all.

If this is the outcome, then all things, evil included, are to eventuate in good, and thus we arrive at the same conclusion that we have reached in so many other ways in this article. Evil must eventuate in good, for nothing but good is the final result!"

I would say that the above is an "interesting quote" too!!

gullibility?
naw

Faith that gives supreme meaning to life?
Ya

At least that's how I see it.

 

[shawn]

At least that's how I see it.

That's nice.

 

[ἔρως-φιλία-ἀγάπη]

I love and worship a God Who doesn't make mistakes.
Looking back from the consummation of his master plan for the ages of time, I am confident that everyone will then agree that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did; better than if it had not happened that way.

In the conclusion of his article THE PURPOSE OF EVIL, A.P. Adams wrote

"The final outcome of God's plan, so clearly revealed in the scripture, fully confirms the foregoing view and, in fact, irresistibly drives us to that view. All the details and every particular of the plan in all its length and breadth are not revealed, but the result is revealed. And that result, the final outcome, is a perfect and absolute triumph for goodness, truth, and justice.

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall give praise to God." (Rom. 14;11; Is. 45:23). "The whole creation shall be delivered form the bondage of corruption." (Rom. 8:21). "All things in heaven and earth shall be gathered together in Christ." (Eph. 1:10). "Death shall be swallowed up in victory." (I Cor. 15:54). "There shall be no more anything accursed." (Rev. 22:3). "Every created thing shall praise God." (Ps. 102:18). This is the outcome! Thank God, it is good enough! To this final result all things are tending. To such a universal victory we are traveling on. We can see it by faith afar off.

I cannot doubt that good shall fall
At last, far off, at last to all.

If this is the outcome, then all things, evil included, are to eventuate in good, and thus we arrive at the same conclusion that we have reached in so many other ways in this article. Evil must eventuate in good, for nothing but good is the final result!"

I would say that the above is an "interesting quote" too!!

gullibility?
naw

Faith that gives supreme meaning to life?
Ya

At least that's how I see it.

An extremely great quote.

 

[Dogbrain]

Just goes to show that there is more than one born every day.
I don't see validation for anything other than people's gullibility.
Look at political elections, they renege on their promise and say it was just campaign rhetoric and yet people still vote for them.
This just reveals the stupidity of humanity.

Why are you still around, then? I would say that you are a hypocrite (fortunately) and do not believe your own extremist rhetoric. Were the world and humanity as hopeless as you posit, the only rational recourse would be to take yourself out of the picture, thus to undergo less suffering.

I will wager that you don't believe what you claim to be the way the world works. You just enjoy making the posture.

I have very bad news for you: The world and humanity are not nearly as bad as you like to pretend they are.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Desire

Any "Christian" who denies the existence of free will worships a "God" who is more evil than is Satan. Because, if there is no free will, then the damned have been damned on account of and by the responsibility of this "God". There was never any possibility of choice on the part of the damned, meaning they bear no responsibility for their damnation.

If there is no free will, then God is the most evil being in existence.

I disagree and this is why: We are ultimately driven by our desires, and if you truly believe that you are 'free' to choose aside from from what you desire most, then you are fooling yourself (I am seeing Rogers point of view)

Evil exists so we might experience the consequences of, so that we will come to desire that which is Good. We are slaves to our desires, and until we are able to desire something better than what we have and what we are, we cannot change (It is that simple).

Before we are able to change, we must first desire to be something better than what we are. The simple fact is that we are driven by our desires, (Always) so it is only logical that a desire to serve comes before we are even given an opportunity to humble ourselves to God.

Pride is acting on our selfish and lustful desires whereby we are incapable of submitting to something greater than ourselves. Obtaining the desire to be something better than what we are is the only way we will be able to tame such foolish pride.

A desire to be free from our selfish and lustful ways is the starting point to understanding our need for salvation. Even so, in order to obtain such a desire, we must first acknowledge that we are in fact selfish and lustful, and that we are slaves to such forces.

This occurs only when we have experienced enough of the negative consequences of said selfishness and lust. Life itself is a classroom (So to speak) and the evils in the world move us to desire something better, which is how we come to recognize our need for salvation in the first place.

Someone once suggested to me that it is humility that gives us an awareness of our need for salvation. It isn't humility that enables us to see our need for salvation, but rather life and the negative consequences we experience because of our and others misguided actions. Evil is the reason behind our motivation to change.

We simply come to desire change out of desperation to be free from evil (Calamity), which just so happens stems from our selfish and lustful ways.

The good news in all of this is that God designed it all this way. He did so that all men will come to desire Him (Love) over Satan (Lust). Obviously, not all come to change in this lifetime, but all [will] be changed "In the twinkling of an eye".

Yes, we have the free will to choose as we desire, but our desires are dependent upon life circumstance, which in effect makes free will not so free.

God is not a monster, He simply moves us towards fellowship with Him, through that which we have no control over (Life). Mankind desires to be in control, but living through such a desire is foolish pride. Life is the tool by which we come to desire Him more than our need to be in control. Control is an illusion (No if's, and's, or but's about it).

(It's All God)

GK

 

[immortalitylost]

Any "Christian" who denies the existence of free will worships a "God" who is more evil than is Satan. Because, if there is no free will, then the damned have been damned on account of and by the responsibility of this "God".

Only if you are a Christian who believes in eternal hell... The two, shocking as it may seem, do not necessarily have to go hand in hand.

Oh yeah, and God created everything, yes? So would he not have also created Satan? And is he not all knowing? So would he not know what Satan would be before his creation?

Would not the creator of evil be more evil than the creation, if he knew beforehand how evil the creation would be?

So if your trying to say that not having free will makes God evil, you might as well just toss that in with a bazillion other things that make god look evil. Like creating eternal hell in the first place, if you believe in such things. Or not giving humanity a way to go anywhere but "Hell" (really sheol, but hey, apparently sheol really means "hell", which as everyone knows means "place of fiery torment and red hot pitchforks") for most of it's term on this planet, and allowing the billions and billions of souls to just fester there until he sent Jesus down.

I mean, really you can't say he's evil if there's no free will and people are doomed to hell before being born. We're lucky to even have a chance of going anywhere but hell, even if it's only luck of the draw that gets us there, right?

Five thousand years ago and you'd be going to hell no matter how good or bad you were, but now, even if there's no free will we have the spiritual lottery! Luck of the draw could get you into heaven! God sounds a lot better now, right?

Wow. Religions are weird...

 

[Dogbrain]

Re: Desire

I disagree and this is why: We are ultimately driven by our desires, and if you truly believe that you are 'free' to choose aside from from what you desire most, then you are fooling yourself (I am seeing Rogers point of view)

Evil exists so we might experience the consequences of, so that we will come to desire that which is Good. We are slaves to our desires, and until we are able to desire something better than what we have and what we are, we cannot change (It is that simple).

Consequences are meaningless and worthless if there is no ability to choose different acts on the basis of different consequences.

Before we are able to change, we must first desire to be something better than what we are.

If there is no free will, we are not able to change. We are only "able" to be puppets and pointless playthings.

Pride is acting on our selfish and lustful desires whereby we are incapable of submitting

If there is no free will, we are incapable of submitting, regardless of pride.

A desire to be free from our selfish and lustful ways is the starting point to understanding our need for salvation.

Of there is no free will, there is no need to understand any need for salvation, since it is impossible to choose salvation.

This occurs only when we have experienced enough of the negative consequences of said selfishness and lust. Life itself is a classroom

If there is no free will, it is not possible to learn. There is only the illusion of learning, but there is no actual learning.

Evil is the reason behind our motivation to change.

If there is no free will, change is impossible. All is predetermined. All outcomes are predetermined. There are no choices, all is predetermined if there is no free will.

Yes, we have the free will to choose as we desire

Now you contradict yourself. First you say there is no free will, now you say there is. Which is it, yes or no, no obfuscation.

Does free will exist or not?

Only an idiot would claim that any constraint at all means that free will absolutely does not exist. If free will does not exist, then you can choose NOTHING--all choices are made for you. If free will does not exist, then God could have very well intentionally created you merely to intentionally damn you. If free will does not exist, then God is the most evil of all beings.