M
mee
Guest
the goodnews seems to disturb people on the christianity forum , i wonder why that is . after all it is GOODNEWS
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Body of God
- Thread starter Gatekeeper
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the goodnews seems to disturb people on the christianity forum , i wonder why that is . after all it is GOODNEWS
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
the goodnews seems to disturb people on the christianity forum , i wonder why that is . after all it is GOODNEWS
Once again, a complete failure to address my point- the COC. This is turning into a pattern of yours, mee.
Can you address any points directly?
M
mee
Guest
ONE mark of true religion and of those who practice it is respect for God’s Word. God’s Son when on earth set the pattern in this by showing the highest respect for the inspired Scriptures. He quoted them as the final authority on matters. He continually referred his hearers to God’s Word, encouraging them to read and apply it. (Matthew 19:4-6; Luke 24:44, 45) He showed his deep respect for the Bible by living in accord with its teachings every day. The fulfillment of God’s Word meant more to him than even his own life. (Matthew 26:53-56) Never did he downgrade the Bible; rather, he condemned those who failed to teach in harmony with it and who tried to weaken its force with their own teachings.—Mark 7:9-13.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
OK. But yet again, you fail to discuss any of the points I brought up, or to answer my questions. What you say here is irrelevant to what I asked and brought up. Nice, but irrelevant.
It's like me saying...
"Why is grass green?"
And you saying...
"Grass can grow up to two inches a week, and so you should mow it often. That way, you will have a healthy lawn."
It doesn't answer the question...
BlaznFattyz
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Mee, it is time for you to **** or get off the pot. Sorry to be so blunt, but we have been patient with you for several years. We want to know what Mee thinks. Not the elders.the goodnews seems to disturb people on the christianity forum , i wonder why that is . after all it is GOODNEWS
v/r
Q
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Hey mee,
We can't all agree with each other on what to believe. I don't insist that you uphold the Trinity and nor do I insist that you disown the Watch Tower. Your posts may be a response to what people have said here about your beliefs, and now you feel you must vindicate yourself. So you may be posting not to preach but to justify your own beliefs. You don't want to appear weak so you try to be as affirmative as you can and try not to get personal.
Ok fair enough. But let's just forget that these discussions took place. You've been taken to task. I would hate to see you being oppressed and persecuted, but most importantly you don't have to justify everything you think and believe. The people here are Christian just like you. We're no better than you. We release you from the need to justify yourself. We don't even hold ourselves to such standards. If you don't post we won't have anything to which to respond so there you can rest happy.
What I mean is, we're setting you free. We're not judging you anymore.
You don't have to defend yourself. We're not here to humiliate you.Take a break for a while. You're getting too involved. We're going to be here for a while. You can be pretty sure that next week we'll still be able to chat.
The journey of Christ. We're all in this together. You and us, individually and collectively. We accept you, you accept us. Let there not be a wall between us. Isn't that good news?
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Y'all know I'm not normally pushy, and I'm the last person that wants someone to feel persecuted. But enough is enough all ready, and that's why this time, I engaged in debate rather than "ignore" mode.
The problem is that mee insists that only s/he is correct, and fails to engage with us the way you are describing, Salty, with mutual respect and acceptance.
If mee said, as the rest of us do, "I accept you as a Christian, and I respect your beliefs because I realize they are your best attempt to be a good Christian," there would be no issue here. I fully accept mee's beliefs as great for mee. I'm not trying to change mee's mind about them. But I'm not going to stand by while other people attack my beliefs in a disrespectful manner and then smugly tell me if I was just a JW, then all would be well, because they are the only ones who have it all figured out.
It's not the beliefs of the JWs I'm railing against. It's mee's attitude in how s/he is engaging me and other members, skirting around the COC's rule against proselytizing, and not having a two-way conversation. All that is just disruptive to the forum and gets us nowhere in meaningful dialogue. I suppose at this point I just had enough already, and yet to be honest, I'm being pretty easy on mee.
S/he went on the offensive originally, and I have been playing a defensive game, asking for proof and evidence. I'm not attacking mee's beliefs, I'm saying if s/he is so sure mine are wrong, offer up proof. None of it would have gotten off the ground in the first place if mee would have been polite and actually interested in interfaith exchange rather than telling us all how wrong we are.
Honestly, I do "come in peace!"
Path/Kim
The problem is that mee insists that only s/he is correct, and fails to engage with us the way you are describing, Salty, with mutual respect and acceptance.
If mee said, as the rest of us do, "I accept you as a Christian, and I respect your beliefs because I realize they are your best attempt to be a good Christian," there would be no issue here. I fully accept mee's beliefs as great for mee. I'm not trying to change mee's mind about them. But I'm not going to stand by while other people attack my beliefs in a disrespectful manner and then smugly tell me if I was just a JW, then all would be well, because they are the only ones who have it all figured out.
It's not the beliefs of the JWs I'm railing against. It's mee's attitude in how s/he is engaging me and other members, skirting around the COC's rule against proselytizing, and not having a two-way conversation. All that is just disruptive to the forum and gets us nowhere in meaningful dialogue. I suppose at this point I just had enough already, and yet to be honest, I'm being pretty easy on mee.
S/he went on the offensive originally, and I have been playing a defensive game, asking for proof and evidence. I'm not attacking mee's beliefs, I'm saying if s/he is so sure mine are wrong, offer up proof. None of it would have gotten off the ground in the first place if mee would have been polite and actually interested in interfaith exchange rather than telling us all how wrong we are.
Honestly, I do "come in peace!"
Path/Kim
M
mee
Guest
thats an interesting thought , because Jesus did say that he was going away but he would come again .
and when he did come into kingdom power in 1914 , what did he find on the earth ,there were many who called them selves christians and he could have thought anyone of those groups were the ones doing what he had asked them to do .
and the last thing that Jesus said to his followers before he went back to heaven was this in matthew 28;19-20 ....GO therefore and make disciples teaching them all the things i commanded you.
and i would think that he would have looked around at those mainstream channels and saw that they had taken on many doctrines of man which he did not teach.
so he was looking for those that were faithful to his teachings ,and yes he did find a faithful class of slaves or servants . at the end of the day the early christian congregation was set up to do what Jesus asked ,but as Jesus himself made known the apoztacy would infiltrate the congregations and it would come from those in the congregations because they were teaching things out of line with true teachings.
For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. 2 timothy 4; 3-4
but now in these last days the class of ones that Jesus is using, is being fed by Jesus and he has given them all his belongings matthew 24;45-47 many people in the world are now being gathered to join that little flock of faithful ones and they also are being fed by Jesus and they are in total unity of thought
revelation 7;9-10
i am not saying that these ones of the great crowd in revelation 7;9-10 are better than other people ,it is just that they are willing to go along with what Jesus is doing . and they are all a work in progress .
Following the apostles’ death, "the man of lawlessness" came out into the open with his religious hypocrisy and false teachings. (2Th 2:3, 6, 8)
this man spoken of here is a composite man , not an individual man , so its about the teachings that come from the channel that claims to be Gods channel that is the issue here.
and as you mentioned , many people are trying to do right , (mother thersa )there are many people doing good things but have they been misled by false stories and myths. its the teachings coming out of the religions that are wrong , they are based on lies . Jehovah God and Jesus christ are the ones to do the judgeing . Jehovahs witnesses are only sent forth to preach the GOODNEWS about the kingdom ,and to teach others what Jesus taught. we are not the judges we only point to what the bible says .
M
mee
Guest
i think the goodnews is great DANIEL 2;44 and i think that the gathering of a great crowd is great also, and i love the way that they are all in unity of thought. revelation 7;9-10
THATS WHAT MEE THINKS .
M
mee
Guest
Maybe its because i am putting over bible truth
Daniel 2;44 . and it certainly goes against the grain.
M
mee
Guest
did i say he was?
he is feeding these ones matthew 24;45-47
M
mee
Guest
why have you been patient with me? i have only spoken about the promises in the bible and the goodnews of the kingdom why is that an issue ?
i love bringing the promises of God to the fore ,and i love the way that the bible is a book of prophecy, especially the prophecies relating to the last days Daniel 2;44. and best of all i love the fact that Jesus is now a reigning king Daniel 7; 13;14 and he has been given great aurthority. why is that wrong ? or is it that you dont want it to be brought to the fore ?
BlaznFattyz
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No it is because you are in a christian forum, putting down the divinity of Jesus Christ as our Lord God and Saviour, which is very insulting those who through the Spirit of God know that Jesus is God. It is because you are in a christian forum where date setting is considered false prophecy and you continue to re-iterate that which we are warned by God to be wary of is very troubling. Rather than discussing any questions you may have about it or making any intelligent argument for the sake of discussion, or making your point and leaving it at a certain point out of courtesy and moving on, you incessantly copy and paste to attack core beliefs.Maybe its because i am putting over bible truth
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
I think that more or less sums it up. Again, mee, you never responded to my questions or points, but simply repeated what you already said.
Read Revelations... a date is never mentioned at all. 1914 is not in there. Yes, in Revelations it says Christ will return. It does not say when, and it is does not say anything about the JW church.
If it is not in the Bible, then some church made it up. Now, maybe they made it up based on some valid experience in their own eyes, but that is for each person to assess on his/her own with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I'm not just going to buy into something because some magazine or church says it is so. Why? Because the Bible tells me to be wary of false prophecy, and to keep steadfastly to Christ's message, which was to "take up my cross and follow Him."
The Gospels, and indeed the entire NT, say nothing of particular dates or the JW church or anything of the sort. Given the choice, I will stick with the basics of what the Gospels say and I'll focus my efforts on that. I think you misunderstand me, mee. (LOL- that's a little funny me... mee.) I don't advocate any doctrine whatsoever. I advocate reading Christ's words and the Bible for oneself, and then putting them into practice. Mine is a simple, basic form of Christianity. Jesus said to do X, so go do it. Jesus' life showed this example, so follow it.
I don't form much doctrine, because I am not focused on reward or punishment, and I don't feel the need to define God. I worship God because well, God is God. Jesus Christ is my Savior and Lord because I experienced salvation through Him, and I committed to cling to Him. I follow Jesus' example and message to the best of my ability and repent when I fail, because that is what Jesus tells us to do through the Gospels.
It isn't that complicated, mee. You keep arguing I follow "manmade doctrine," when my point is that I don't really have any doctrines. 1914 and Jesus being Michael and all that jazz sound a lot like doctrine to me, especially because they aren't anywhere in the Bible.
I don't have any of that. Jesus said He will return, so I believe it. He said it will come stealthily and basically, don't worry about it, but rather live as if each day is your last because that is what is RIGHT. So I do. I put my focus on living the message as best I can, loving as much as I can, and being grateful to God for what has already been given. As I fail, I repent, and I know that God saves me by grace because that is what Jesus said.
I guess I practice the KISS version of Christianity (keep it simple, sweetie). No doctrine, no dates to worry about, no "who is in or out," no divisions in the Body of God, no real leaders on Earth. Just... "Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. On these hang all the other commandments."
Read Revelations... a date is never mentioned at all. 1914 is not in there. Yes, in Revelations it says Christ will return. It does not say when, and it is does not say anything about the JW church.
If it is not in the Bible, then some church made it up. Now, maybe they made it up based on some valid experience in their own eyes, but that is for each person to assess on his/her own with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I'm not just going to buy into something because some magazine or church says it is so. Why? Because the Bible tells me to be wary of false prophecy, and to keep steadfastly to Christ's message, which was to "take up my cross and follow Him."
The Gospels, and indeed the entire NT, say nothing of particular dates or the JW church or anything of the sort. Given the choice, I will stick with the basics of what the Gospels say and I'll focus my efforts on that. I think you misunderstand me, mee. (LOL- that's a little funny me... mee.) I don't advocate any doctrine whatsoever. I advocate reading Christ's words and the Bible for oneself, and then putting them into practice. Mine is a simple, basic form of Christianity. Jesus said to do X, so go do it. Jesus' life showed this example, so follow it.
I don't form much doctrine, because I am not focused on reward or punishment, and I don't feel the need to define God. I worship God because well, God is God. Jesus Christ is my Savior and Lord because I experienced salvation through Him, and I committed to cling to Him. I follow Jesus' example and message to the best of my ability and repent when I fail, because that is what Jesus tells us to do through the Gospels.
It isn't that complicated, mee. You keep arguing I follow "manmade doctrine," when my point is that I don't really have any doctrines. 1914 and Jesus being Michael and all that jazz sound a lot like doctrine to me, especially because they aren't anywhere in the Bible.
I don't have any of that. Jesus said He will return, so I believe it. He said it will come stealthily and basically, don't worry about it, but rather live as if each day is your last because that is what is RIGHT. So I do. I put my focus on living the message as best I can, loving as much as I can, and being grateful to God for what has already been given. As I fail, I repent, and I know that God saves me by grace because that is what Jesus said.
I guess I practice the KISS version of Christianity (keep it simple, sweetie). No doctrine, no dates to worry about, no "who is in or out," no divisions in the Body of God, no real leaders on Earth. Just... "Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. On these hang all the other commandments."
Gatekeeper
Shades of Reason
Maybe its because i am putting over bible truth
Hi mee, Belief and knowledge are two seperate things. We can believe so strongly that we 'think' we know for sure, [That belongs to each individual] but the reality is that none of us 'know' absolutely. I admire your passion, and your zeal for what 'you' hold as truth. The reality however, is that you and your church is just as fallable as the rest of us, and ours. I'm all for listening to the JW view point, but I'm not one [never have been] to be told by others what to believe. God is my authority, as is Christ. I will rely on them to reveal to me truth. I might allow you, or other JW's - if you are able to make a strong case, to influence me, however.When I ask a question, I expect an answer - If you can't provide me with an honest [I don't know], or a valid answer to my question, I'll likely ignore anything you have to say. That's the truth of it, mee. If you want to be a good witness, then listen first, cool? That way, you will better able to directly answer the questions that others ask. An honest, I don't know, or an honest - I/we view it this way - should suffice.[My two cents]
M
mee
Guest
do you think that the early cristian congregation was formed or do you think that there wasnt one ? and yes as you say we have to listen i do plenty of that .
M
mee
Guest
i dont say that you are following anything, i am talking about the centuries old manmade docrines that have been around for centuries ,and many have been misled by them . only you yourself know if you believe in them.
make no mistake about it , the time that we are living in NOW is certainly the time that the bible points to ,and it is because the sincere bible students back in the 1800s did not fall asleep and they kept awake to bible prophecy, that they have been blessed with understanding indeed ,and yes the knowledge is now abundant indeed Daniel 12;4
the reason that most christians are in the dark when it comes to this understanding , is because Jesus only feeds and gives understanding to one class of people ,and it is the one the bible foretold . matthew 24;45-47 i am not saying that you as an individual are not trying to live a good life lots of people are trying their best . but when it comes to understanding and especially about bible prophecy , the insight is given to those who are chosen . the fact is we could all get a bee in our bonnet and shrug our shoulders and not believe that Jesus has a faithful channel , but that is the situation , especially since when Jesus came into kingdom power ,and 1914 was the appointed times of the nations (or the end of the gentile times ) the manmade goverments have had their day and Jesus is a reigning king ,and he will shortly at the command from his father go into action to step into the affairs of man Daniel 2;44.
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path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
OK, fair enough. But I still hold that you have not shown any of us that your own ideas about 1914 and whatnot are not "manmade doctrine." I still ask if you can offer Biblical proof.
Prove it. There are dozens of groups out there who claim to have the Real Answers of Bible Prophecy. Prove that the JW one is the correct one.
You are being repetitive without answering my questions. I already discussed this Bible quote several pages ago and asked you to prove that the "faithful servant" is undeniably correctly interpreted as "one class of people" and that this, in turn, can be undeniably interpreted as the JW church. If you can't do that, then there is no proof that your Bible quote is backing up what you are saying. Yours is ONE interpretation of that quote among many. Given different interpretations, I will stick with the one that demands the fewest non-Biblical assumptions and go with what the Bible says rather than what you say it says.
I suggest that if you want me (or any non-JW) to count this Bible verse as evidence for the JW church being the ONE and ONLY servant, that you prove that is the case.
OK, whatever you say. Personally, I have an interest in following Christ. I was not instructed by Christ to spend my life worrying about Bible prophecy. In fact, Jesus said "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 18:3). I've never known little kids to worry much about dates, prophecy, and whatever. They are content that God loves them and to try their best. They trust with a simple trust, not needing complicated answers to follow their faith.
Maybe some people are driven to know all about prophecy, but I am not. In fact, despite having a keen intellectual interest in patterns, theories and so forth (and using that for my profession), I have felt guided by the Holy Spirit to avoid all that in my spiritual life as a Christian. I am not a simplistic Christian because I am intellectually lazy. I am that way because I felt called to practice a simple life of faith.
I don't need ideas about the date and time of Jesus' return and things like that. It doesn't matter. If I live my life each day like tomorrow I could die or Jesus could return, my life is as good as it is going to get. I have faith that God loves me, saved me through grace, and that is enough. I don't need or want the rest, and the Holy Spirit has told me without question that I am not to pursue it.
Now whether that is true for others, I would never say. I can't tell other people what is the right path for them. I would appreciate if other people didn't presume to know what the right path is for me.
Again, I have asked many times for proof. There must be some Biblical reason why you say 1914 and all that. What is it? (And Dan 2:44 says nothing about 1914).
M
mee
Guest
1914 ASignificant Year in Bible Prophecy
DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?
As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ["the times of the Gentiles," King James Version] are fulfilled." Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on "Jehovah’s throne" as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.
How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. "Jehovah’s throne" became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.
When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: "Let seven times pass over it."—Daniel 4:10-16.
In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of "seven times." How long a period is that?
Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." "Seven times" would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of "a day for a year," the "seven times" would cover 2,520 years.
The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, "the appointed times of the nations" ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.
Just as Jesus predicted, his "presence" as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of "the last days" of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.