Who Are They?

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Muslimwoman said:
May I ask you about this. You clearly see the Holy Spirit and G-d as seperate beings, so may I ask who/what the Holy Spirit is for you (I know it's a bit daft to ask you to define the Divine but I think I know what I mean). What relationship does the Holy Spirit have with G-d?

Salaam
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Well the Holy Spirit is God. I say the "Holy Spirit and God" in the same way that Jesus refers to God the Father as God. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God that lives in each of us who accept is gift of forgiveness, for God, through Jesus' sacrifice, cleans us of our sin giving us a pure heart where the Holy Spirit dwells. He talks to us, and convicts us of our sin which leads us to repentance. The Holy Spirit knows God's thoughts (for he is God) and works through us to bring God (the Father's) will to completion. In the New Testament (and Jesus, too) when someone refers to God, they usually mean God the Father.

The trinity is something that a lot of people have a hard time grasping, which is understandable because God is so far beyond us. And all understanding of God's ways come from the Holy Spirit. So I guess what I'm saying is that in order to really understand God, the knowledge has to be given to you by the Holy Spirit (of God) but the only way to receive the Holy Spirit is by accepting Jesus as your savior, which has to be done by faith. That is one thing the Bible repeatedly emphasizes on is that faith comes first, everything else comes as a result of that faith.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Pico said:
God is so far beyond us.
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Ameen to that.

So do you think that our 'souls' are the Holy Spirit? Sorry if that sounds rude, it is not meant to be. Obviously I have real trouble understanding the trinity and each person I speak to seems to explain it a slightly different way.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Muslimwoman said:
Ameen to that.

So do you think that our 'souls' are the Holy Spirit? Sorry if that sounds rude, it is not meant to be. Obviously I have real trouble understanding the trinity and each person I speak to seems to explain it a slightly different way.
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No not rude at all. I understand that. God is a personal God and works differently in everyone, thus i can understand that everyone's understanding of the trinity is different. I guess in a way our souls consist of God's very own Holy Spirit since we were originally created in his image, and since Jesus' sacrifice cleanses us of our sin, the Holy Spirit can dwell in us since our hearts are made pure by God and Jesus' sacrifice; as the Bible says God lives within us.

The trinity is a dificult subject for many people. But it is one thing God has revealed about himself in the Bible. In Matthew when Jesus was baptized the whole of God was there:

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:16-17).

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were present. The way I understand it is that all 3 are God in nature, they are one, but distinct in role and have a separate consciousness but all work together.

In the Bible Jesus says that the Father is greater than he is, but what he means is that in Position he is greater, but by nature they are the same, or "The Father and I are one" as Jesus said. Jesus submits himself to his Father's will: "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (Matthew 26:39)

Jesus, being God, became human and lived the human life perfectly and set the example. This included praying a lot (and at all times), being selfless, and submitting himself to the Father's will. In the verse I quoted form Matthew Jesus was expressing his humanity by saying that (just like humans) he was scared and didn't want what was going to happen (being the subject of God wrath for mankind's sin), but he still said "not as I will, but as you will." Showing he was in utterly submitted to the Father's will.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

So do you think that our 'souls' are the Holy Spirit? Obviously I have real trouble understanding the trinity and each person I speak to seems to explain it a slightly different way.
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our souls are individual creations of god, they are spirits that return to god for judgement. the holy spirit is the spirit of god, that is also god, that is also a person in the sense that he instructs, he comforts, he grieves, he has a will, he inspires, and of course he testifies of jesus christ, the son of god. so if we go to church or a synagogue and we pray, it is the holy spirit itself that intercedes for us with groanings which cannot be uttered--these are things of spirit, that go beyond that which is confined to our mind or by our sinful nature that cannot approach our holy god. because he knows our deepest most needs before we even say it. and if we read scriptures, or a prophet has ever raised a question to god, or a king or leader has asked for guidance from god, it is the holy spirit that has instructed or has put it in the heart of them to ask because god desired it so he may reveal the truth to them about god and his salvation and love for all of us--he finds a way to have a personal relationship with us and part of that is through his holy spirit.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

I can personally say I've experienced the "groanings of the spirit." I've prayed for friends I felt deeply troubled about and intently wanted God to help them and I can feel in the center of my chest (behind the sternum) a force aching and pulling at it. I knew it was the Holy Spirit groaning and grieving for them.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Thanks for your answers guys.

So is it fair to say that you do see the trinity as 3 interconnected, yet seperate entities?
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Muslimwoman said:
Ameen to that.

So do you think that our 'souls' are the Holy Spirit? Sorry if that sounds rude, it is not meant to be. Obviously I have real trouble understanding the trinity and each person I speak to seems to explain it a slightly different way.
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The trinity.. is dogma... JW's do NOT believe in a trinity.... god is god, jesus is his son and the holy spirit is the force (or hands) of god. It's all baloney anywho lol...
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

17th Angel said:
The trinity.. is dogma... JW's do NOT believe in a trinity.... god is god, jesus is his son and the holy spirit is the force (or hands) of god. It's all baloney anywho lol...
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17th, was it just a girl that dragged you in or are you a bit dyslexic and thot it said Jahovah, and maybe thot their ceremonies might involve pungent incense?

Tao
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

17th Angel said:
?

Let's try that again in English.. :)
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Ok,

17th, was it just a girl that dragged you in or are you a bit dyslexic and thot it said Jahovah, and maybe thought their ceremonies might involve pungent incense?

Tao
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

17th Angel said:
The trinity.. is dogma... JW's do NOT believe in a trinity.... god is god, jesus is his son and the holy spirit is the force (or hands) of god. It's all baloney anywho lol...
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Now that is what I call a simple answer, thanks.

Love the new pic 17th. :)
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Well you told me it was a girl that you were after that led you into the JW's, if you need the rest explained its time to lay off the weed. Aint rocket science.

Tao
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

17th Angel said:
I hear that. Anything else about the JW's you wanted to know? I think I would be capable of helping. :)
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I don't really know what to ask 17th as I don't know anything about JW's beliefs, so no idea where to start. Of course the blood issue is one I fail to understand and I would like to know how much their Bible varies from the Christian one.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Tao_Equus said:
Well you told me it was a girl that you were after that led you into the JW's, if you need the rest explained its time to lay off the weed. Aint rocket science.

Tao
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Jahovah and pugnent incense? I don't get it... :|

Muslimwoman said:
I don't really know what to ask 17th as I don't know anything about JW's beliefs, so no idea where to start. Of course the blood issue is one I fail to understand and I would like to know how much their Bible varies from the Christian one.
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The blood thing is an interesting issue... The bible basically goes along the lines "do not take blood" as in animal blood... And it goes on (Keeping this simple for yah :)) So they take that as no matter how or what they cannot take blood and there is evidence to a, certain degree to back up their way... Such as the NIH, stated that 1 in every 100 transfusions are effected by fever, chills or hives... And I think 1 in 5,000 have a serious (fatal) reaction with their red blood cell count.... The main thing is, the bible is a gift from jah as a guideline to their health and living... well being... So they take it god himself has adviced them not to partake in blood transfusion... And as this is their supreme ultra being, they do not question him. Another thing that is interesting is, if you have had blood... Notice, you cannot -give- blood? ;)

Also there are many, many ways now that you can have an operation without the need for blood... Also another simple and basic thing... A friend's sister in the JW's was going in hospital as she was pregnant and they said to her. "I see you are a Jw and have stated you wish not to have blood." She confirmed this and they simply replied "Oh not a problem, we will just be careful then.." Is that all it really took? lol You know....
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

17th Angel said:
The bible basically goes along the lines "do not take blood" as in animal blood
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So why don't the Christians or Jews follow this? Can you remember where this is in the Bible?

17th Angel said:
And as this is their supreme ultra being, they do not question him. Another thing that is interesting is, if you have had blood... Notice, you cannot -give- blood? ;)
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That is the first time I have ever heard that. I have been given loads of blood, during a major operation and have since given blood for years, no-one ever said I couldn't and when I do they never ask me if I have ever received blood.

17th Angel said:
Also another simple and basic thing... A friend's sister in the JW's was going in hospital as she was pregnant and they said to her. "I see you are a Jw and have stated you wish not to have blood." She confirmed this and they simply replied "Oh not a problem, we will just be careful then.." Is that all it really took? lol You know....
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But the operation could have gone wrong and this lady and/or her baby may have lost their lives. I think I just don't get the willingness to die, when it is not strictly necessary, it almost seems like suicide - do JW's think suicide is a sin?

Would they have even known about blood transfusion in those days? I may have to go and look that up, as I know blood letting was an issue but not sure about transfusion.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

This is what I can find doing a quick search but will try to do a better search later:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans Serif]1492 - Pope Innocent VIII, in Rome, had an apoplectic stroke; became weak and went into a coma. His physician advised a Blood transfusion as a therapeutic measure for the Pope's illness. Employing crude methods, the Pope did not benefit and died by the end of that year. [/FONT]

The first historical attempt at blood transfusion was described by the 15th-century chronicler Stefano Infessura. Infessura relates that, in 1492, as Pope Innocent VIII sank into a coma, the blood of three boys was infused into the dying pontiff (through the mouth, as the concept of circulation and methods for intravenous access did not exist at that time) at the suggestion of a physician.

So how does this fit in with Bible teachings?
 
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