Who Are They?

[Muslimwoman]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

So much trouble over a piece of fruit. Seems to me someone would have to be incredibly grouchy, petty and bored and really not a very nice person at all to behave like this. So why is it acceptable in a God?

So if you say to a child, go and play with anything you like but do not touch my razor and they touch it and you walk into the room and they are playing with your razor, would you punish them for disobeying you?

 

[Muslimwoman]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

bumping my post, it is not showing.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

So if you say to a child, go and play with anything you like but do not touch my razor and they touch it and you walk into the room and they are playing with your razor, would you punish them for disobeying you?

How responsible a parent would I be to leave a razor where my children could play with it? How justified would I be in punishing them for it if I was so stupid?

There are bits of the Bible that to me reek of theopolitical insertion with the sole purpose of telling the masses that to think for themselves is wrong. This is one of them. Eating from "the tree of knowledge" becomes the greatest sin, so why were we given large brains? No the fact is the Priests invented that. Its an authority enforcing psychological tool for them to keep the uneducated masses compliant and reverent. Nothing more.

Tao

 

[17th Angel]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

How responsible a parent would I be to leave a razor where my children could play with it? How justified would I be in punishing them for it if I was so stupid?

There are bits of the Bible that to me reek of theopolitical insertion with the sole purpose of telling the masses that to think for themselves is wrong. This is one of them. Eating from "the tree of knowledge" becomes the greatest sin, so why were we given large brains? No the fact is the Priests invented that. Its an authority enforcing psychological tool for them to keep the uneducated masses compliant and reverent. Nothing more.

Tao

Because that razor was in reach of the child, the parent is "stupid"? That's just bollocks..... Are parent's like all seeing all remembering all knowing beings? No... They are humans ;/ Easily can forget **** like that. Kids explore and reach and find all sorts of stuff... So to forewarn a child not to touch something is far from stupid..... isn't it.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

There are bits of the Bible that to me reek of theopolitical insertion with the sole purpose of telling the masses that to think for themselves is wrong. This is one of them. Eating from "the tree of knowledge" becomes the greatest sin, so why were we given large brains? No the fact is the Priests invented that. Its an authority enforcing psychological tool for them to keep the uneducated masses compliant and reverent. Nothing more.

Tao

I don't disagree with you Tao but are you not assuming the Tree of Knowledge is about well quite frankly knowledge, learning? I am not very good at Genesis (perhaps BB or Dauer could help us out) but it is my understanding that the only knowledge held in the tree was the knowledge of good and evil/bad, which is why Adam & Eve (pbut) became ashamed of their nakedness after eating from the tree. It basically gave them a concience, where they were 'innocent' before eating from the tree. So surely the lesson is not "do not try to learn". It may have been used that way by the Church at times but that is not, I believe, what the scripture says.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Because that razor was in reach of the child, the parent is "stupid"? That's just bollocks..... Are parent's like all seeing all remembering all knowing beings? No... They are humans ;/ Easily can forget **** like that. Kids explore and reach and find all sorts of stuff... So to forewarn a child not to touch something is far from stupid..... isn't it.

All seeing? No. But I know mine never got near my razor or drugs or bleach or anything else because I took precautions against such eventualities. And I aint a God. Would you keep an apple tree in your garden that grew beautiful looking fruit that were toxic to your children? No you wouldn't, you'd chop it down. So dont give me that "ohh you didn't heed the warning crap" thats part of the politics of control I talk about. Blame shifting in a loaded game.

Tao

 

[Tao_Equus]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

I don't disagree with you Tao but are you not assuming the Tree of Knowledge is about well quite frankly knowledge, learning? I am not very good at Genesis (perhaps BB or Dauer could help us out) but it is my understanding that the only knowledge held in the tree was the knowledge of good and evil/bad, which is why Adam & Eve (pbut) became ashamed of their nakedness after eating from the tree. It basically gave them a concience, where they were 'innocent' before eating from the tree. So surely the lesson is not "do not try to learn". It may have been used that way by the Church at times but that is not, I believe, what the scripture says.

Is it possible to think rationally without the qualitative application of right and wrong, good/evil? I think not.

Tao

 

[17th Angel]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

It wasn't toxic.... It was simply an apple tree.... IF you are in charge of all... You have made beings of free will, intelligence and perfection... You need to draw a line and say "don't cross this line." If you say... Here you go, have this planet Earth do whatever the fluck ya want! Where have you proved that you are the governor? You haven't you need something to show you are the boss... That was a simple tree... Look you have EVERYTHING, every single thing in this world is your's for the taking... BUT! I am the freaking boss awright sun shine? Do not touch my apple tree..... (not asking for much really was it?)

If you came to my house.... Where I am el capitanoooooo! You would respect my space... As you would expect others in your domain to respect yours. Want some lunch? Sure there is a sandwhich in the fridge help yourself.... And you start tucking into my food that I haven't offered you... That is taking the piss.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

It wasn't toxic.... It was simply an apple tree.... IF you are in charge of all... You have made beings of free will, intelligence and perfection... You need to draw a line and say "don't cross this line." If you say... Here you go, have this planet Earth do whatever the fluck ya want! Where have you proved that you are the governor? You haven't you need something to show you are the boss... That was a simple tree... Look you have EVERYTHING, every single thing in this world is your's for the taking... BUT! I am the freaking boss awright sun shine? Do not touch my apple tree..... (not asking for much really was it?)

If you came to my house.... Where I am el capitanoooooo! You would respect my space... As you would expect others in your domain to respect yours. Want some lunch? Sure there is a sandwhich in the fridge help yourself.... And you start tucking into my food that I haven't offered you... That is taking the piss.

As MW pointed out they had no concept of right and wrong till AFTER they ate... so... well.... someone has a sick sense of humour or is damned stupid.

Tao

 

[17th Angel]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

As MW pointed out they had no concept of right and wrong till AFTER they ate... so... well.... someone has a sick sense of humour or is damned stupid.

Tao

But, they were told NOT to touch, they have intelligence... They have perfection they also know where they stand... This is a higher superior being and is their boss.. He says don't do it.... You have the free will to do so or not.... And they did. Then again I would have done the same snake or not... WHATEVER YOU DO, do -not- press that button......

*presses the big red do not push button....*

 

[Dondi]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

There are bits of the Bible that to me reek of theopolitical insertion with the sole purpose of telling the masses that to think for themselves is wrong. This is one of them. Eating from "the tree of knowledge" becomes the greatest sin, so why were we given large brains? No the fact is the Priests invented that. Its an authority enforcing psychological tool for them to keep the uneducated masses compliant and reverent. Nothing more.

This is not about controlling the masses. I cannot understand why people believe that the OT scriptures were just a tool for the priests to manipulate the people. You make it sound like it was some sort of "1984" society where Big Brother is watching. In the first place, if the Torah was written by a group of priests for that purpose, what would they possibly have to gain? The Levites owned no land and what earnings they did receive came from the mere 10% of the rest of the tribes. Why only 10%? And if they wanted power, why didn't they make it a requirement that the King of Israel be from tribe of Levi? If you are going to make blanket statements on the intentions of the priests, you are going to have to be more convincing on motive here.

On the issue of the Tree of Knowledge, it isn't knowledge that is at issue, it is the matter of discernment between right and wrong. There is nothing wrong with knowledge. I know that murder is wrong and I haven't killed anyone. I know that it is wrong because there is a law against murder and I know there are consequences attached to committing murder. But there is a difference between head knowledge and experiential knowledge. Adam and Eve knew it would be wrong to disobey God by eating the fruit, but when they entered the realm of that experential knowledge of disobedience, they discovered just how wrong they were. They overstepped the boundaries of where God placed them. Those boundaries were designed not to limit our thinking, but to be in the place that gives us the most fulfillment in life. When we are obedient to the commandments of God, we will enjoy peace and contentment and satisfaction in our lives. When we overstep those commands, we'll end up in turmoil and dischord and misery. If God created us, then there are certain parameters for which we will operated most efficiently. And it is within this operation where we will find the love of God and love for our neighbor. If all you see is a bunch of rules and regulations, you've missed the point.

 

[Neemai]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

He says don't do it.... You have the free will to do so or not....

The main theme of the story appears to be free-will, and our relationship with God. God wants us to use our free-will to love him, but we can wander away into this world of duality to taste happiness and distress 'independently' of Him if we really want to. If He made us all love Him, then it wouldn't really be love.

I wonder if this is really a story about the first historical humans in existence, or instead is it actually the story of how each of us used our free-will to leave God to come to this world? Just a speculation - shoot it down at will if required.


... Neemai

 

[mee]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

So much trouble over a piece of fruit. Seems to me someone would have to be incredibly grouchy, petty and bored and really not a very nice person at all to behave like this. So why is it acceptable in a God?

because its not just about a piece of Fruit, its about the issue of universal sovreignty. and yes , much trouble has happened because of it .

 

[Muslimwoman]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

If He made us all love Him, then it wouldn't really be love.

Very, very well said Neemai.

I wonder if this is really a story about the first historical humans in existence, or instead is it actually the story of how each of us used our free-will to leave God to come to this world? Just a speculation - shoot it down at will if required.

I hope I would never shoot anyone's ideas down, heavens know I have some odd ones of my own. I can't imagine I would ever 'decide' to leave G-d, the idea is giving me brain freeze. Of course I have no idea what form my soul takes or how it all works. I prefer to see it as a big test, I have been given free will and it is up to me whether I use that to satisfy myself in this life or the next.

 

[Pico]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

I wonder if this is really a story about the first historical humans in existence, or instead is it actually the story of how each of us used our free-will to leave God to come to this world? Just a speculation - shoot it down at will if required.


... Neemai

Well the way the entire book of Genesis is written is a book of history, not poetry or metaphor. It plainly states that the first 3 chapters are about the first people God created. The first historical humans in existence.

Jesus himself talked of Genesis as it was literal history, and He was there, after all. Not only that, but there is no where in the Bible that refers to Genesis as anything but literal history.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Hi Dondi,

There is hardly a religion in existence that does not have some parable about the tree of knowledge and it is pretty obvious that the myth stems from well before Judaism. But the way in which the Old Testament relates the myth is not the same as all and is, in my opinion, inserted in such a way as to make any questioning of religious authority a great sin. I find that not only in the wording of Genesis but in the differing interpretations given as the official positions of the given churches. This is not how the story began.

The Judaic/Christian version is likely a re-rendering of the ancient Sumerian myth of Lileth, (Goddess of the Beasts), who lived in the Tree of Knowledge. But likely is much older even than that. I am more interested in understanding the origins of these myths and can see in several pictures of Mesopotamian artefacts clear and unambiguous evidence that the Tree of Knowledge was central to much earlier religions than Judaism. These early religions placed the divinity of the female above that of the male and it is not lost on me that the male dominated subsequent religions turn the tables on "Eve" and make her the source of our sin.

How you approach the myth is important. If you take it in isolation from Genesis then it is used as the bedrock on which to thump the idea that we are forever tainted. This is especially reinforced in Genesis 8:21 where God says "The imagination from their hearts is evil from their youth". Sorry but that will never wash with me, not when I can clearly see this myth is borrowed and twisted from a quite different original meaning.

When you build any structure you first clear the ground and make it good then you lay down the foundations. Adam and Eve are the foundations of mankind's story according to the Bible. The structure of control over peoples thoughts requires first reducing them to sinners. It is no different than advertising that works best by first destroying your confidence and then offering a reprieve through purchase of a product. The Bible works in exactly the same way. The Bible also has much common sense for the basis communal, social law but it is all built on this corrupt foundation. Well that is my take on it anyway.

Regards

Tao


Hi Mee,

I think I agree with you if you substitute the word universal for Church.

Tao

 

[Pico]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Hi Dondi,

There is hardly a religion in existence that does not have some parable about the tree of knowledge and it is pretty obvious that the myth stems from well before Judaism. But the way in which the Old Testament relates the myth is not the same as all and is, in my opinion, inserted in such a way as to make any questioning of religious authority a great sin. I find that not only in the wording of Genesis but in the differing interpretations given as the official positions of the given churches. This is not how the story began.

The Judaic/Christian version is likely a re-rendering of the ancient Sumerian myth of Lileth, (Goddess of the Beasts), who lived in the Tree of Knowledge. But likely is much older even than that. I am more interested in understanding the origins of these myths and can see in several pictures of Mesopotamian artefacts clear and unambiguous evidence that the Tree of Knowledge was central to much earlier religions than Judaism. These early religions placed the divinity of the female above that of the male and it is not lost on me that the male dominated subsequent religions turn the tables on "Eve" and make her the source of our sin.

How you approach the myth is important. If you take it in isolation from Genesis then it is used as the bedrock on which to thump the idea that we are forever tainted. This is especially reinforced in Genesis 8:21 where God says "The imagination from their hearts is evil from their youth". Sorry but that will never wash with me, not when I can clearly see this myth is borrowed and twisted from a quite different original meaning.

When you build any structure you first clear the ground and make it good then you lay down the foundations. Adam and Eve are the foundations of mankind's story according to the Bible. The structure of control over peoples thoughts requires first reducing them to sinners. It is no different than advertising that works best by first destroying your confidence and then offering a reprieve through purchase of a product. The Bible works in exactly the same way. The Bible also has much common sense for the basis communal, social law but it is all built on this corrupt foundation. Well that is my take on it anyway.

Regards

Tao


Hi Mee,

I think I agree with you if you substitute the word universal for Church.

Tao

You know why the Genesis account is similar to these "myths" you refer to? It's because that is the true history of the world and over time different cultures around the world have passed the story down and over time the specifics changed. Similarly, there are many cultures around the world with their own legends of a gigantic flood, and a boat that saved people and animals. Just like what Genesis says about Noah and the Flood.

The thing is, the written account of Genesis is a direct revelation from God who was there and did see it happen. The fact that they did happen is apparent because the story still exists around the world even though it has changed over time through word-of-mouth.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

You know why the Genesis account is similar to these "myths" you refer to? It's because that is the true history of the world and over time different cultures around the world have passed the story down and over time the specifics changed. Similarly, there are many cultures around the world with their own legends of a gigantic flood, and a boat that saved people and animals. Just like what Genesis says about Noah and the Flood.

The thing is, the written account of Genesis is a direct revelation from God who was there and did see it happen. The fact that they did happen is apparent because the story still exists around the world even though it has changed over time through word-of-mouth.

You miss the fact that this story was around long before Genesis was written. However, if you think the Bible is a literal history then I see little point in any discussion with you on this. This is after all the Christian forum, (how did I end up here again????), and I am bound to show a respect for views other than my own. I find this very difficult when faced with literalism. If you wish to engage me in discussion on neutral territory then I will be happy to oblige.

Regards

Tao

 

[Pico]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

You miss the fact that this story was around long before Genesis was written. However, if you think the Bible is a literal history then I see little point in any discussion with you on this. This is after all the Christian forum, (how did I end up here again????), and I am bound to show a respect for views other than my own. I find this very difficult when faced with literalism. If you wish to engage me in discussion on neutral territory then I will be happy to oblige.

Regards

Tao

Well yeah, people and storytelling have been around long before Genesis was written. But that's not the point. The point is that Genesis is God's divine revelation of the beginning of the world.

And what's wrong with believing Genesis to be literal history? It's written as literal history. The rest of the Bible refers it as literal history. It seems that only fallible man's ideas think it not to be literal history. In the book of proverbs it says: "it is better to have faith in God than confidence in man."

 

[Tao_Equus]

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Well yeah, people and storytelling have been around long before Genesis was written. But that's not the point. The point is that Genesis is God's divine revelation of the beginning of the world.

And what's wrong with believing Genesis to be literal history? It's written as literal history. The rest of the Bible refers it as literal history. It seems that only fallible man's ideas think it not to be literal history. In the book of proverbs it says: "it is better to have faith in God than confidence in man."

Show me one copy of Genesis that is written, printed or published by anyone other than man.