Who Are They?

Re: Jehovah witnesses.

This exemplifies the breadth of Christianity, the variety of those who follow Jesus.

Yes there are those whose belief system includes a literal translation of the bible...but even they have texts and scripture which they ignore or won't read literally...(dietary rules, various interps of the commandments, punishments for crimes)

And there are those that believe that the book is largely allegory, parables, myth and exaggerated history but even they have parts of the book they read literally.

And there is everything in between.

But I'm pondering because there exists a similar Summerian creation story why does it make this one wrong or a copy. Does the indegenous American creation story negate the aboriginal Australian's. Does the one flood story mean the other is wrong...or either is right? I don't think so...
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Pico said:
Moses wrote the book of Genesis, but God told him what to write. This article talks about Moses being the writer of Genesis.
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I know who was supposed to have written Genesis. A guy for whom there is not 1 single shred of evidence, outside the Bible, that he ever lived. Despite him having led this tribe around for 40 years in a region where we have a lot of historical documentation not 1 tiny scrap of reference. So what kind of authority does that story carry really? Outside of "faith" it has none.
There is not even a single fragment of the Old Testament that has been dated prior to 200BC, not 2000... 200BC
To accept any story as a literal history it must have multiple sources. With this we cannot even confirm one.

Tao
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Tao,

I'd be interested in knowing your sources for the idea of Lilith and the Tree of Knowledge. While it's true that the tale of "Gilgamesh and the Huluppu tree" contains a tree and a serpent, it does not mention the tree as the Tree of Knowledge. Are you sure you are not getting that confused with later Jewish and Kabbalist and writings in reference to Adam and Lilith in such tales as "The Alphabet of Ben-Sira" and Talmudic references dating long after the writing of the Torah?
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Namaste Tao, is there a place you are headed with this line of discussion that supports Christianity and the bible??

If not, don't you think this would be the wrong forum for this discussion?

It would be beneficial to us all now to understand the direction this is going so it is not misinterpreted.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Pico said:
Moses wrote the book of Genesis, but God told him what to write. This article talks about Moses being the writer of Genesis.
Click to expand...

Forgive me but have not many Rabbi's and theologians stated that the book of Genisis was actually written by 4 different people? The way that each writer writes is qte different and quite distinctive. Perhaps Dauer or BB could be more specific about this but I remember watching a program about it.

Sorry Dondi did't see you there, perhaps you could shed some light here?
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Hi Dondi,

What I said was that the story of the Tree of Knowledge found in the Bible is derived from earlier myths. If you google it you will find lots of references to Sumerian and other myths that include the idea of guardian deities, a tree and a serpent. As I maintain, this part of Genesis is clearly not divine revelation but re-worked myth.

Wil,

I have no intention of steering this anywhere, I am tempted to pick apart and rationalise but realise this is not the right thread. Hard to stop when you are asked to qualify tho.

Regards

Tao


Edit: MW, only 4!!
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Muslimwoman said:
Forgive me but have not many Rabbi's and theologians stated that the book of Genisis was actually written by 4 different people? The way that each writer writes is qte different and quite distinctive. Perhaps Dauer or BB could be more specific about this but I remember watching a program about it.

Sorry Dondi did't see you there, perhaps you could shed some light here?
Click to expand...
Yes many Rabbi's and Theologians have stated multiple authors...but again this is the breadth of Judaism much as it is for Christianity. Judging by discussions in the past BB would lean more literal and Dauer more liberal.

And the discussion in those circles of those who discuss multiple authors are looking at groups of people, the Priest, Deuteronomists, Yahwists, Elohists etc... and the editing and merging of various texts. This is currently by no means accepted by all, as the specifics are constantly being discussed.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Tao_Equus said:
I know who was supposed to have written Genesis. A guy for whom there is not 1 single shred of evidence, outside the Bible, that he ever lived. Despite him having led this tribe around for 40 years in a region where we have a lot of historical documentation not 1 tiny scrap of reference. So what kind of authority does that story carry really? Outside of "faith" it has none.
There is not even a single fragment of the Old Testament that has been dated prior to 200BC, not 2000... 200BC
To accept any story as a literal history it must have multiple sources. With this we cannot even confirm one.

Tao
Click to expand...

Well, what about Jesus? The New Testament contains the best documented texts ever written. There are thousands of sources to back up the Gospels. Jesus spoke of Moses. He even talked to him during the Transfiguration which is recorded in the books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

Edit: Just because we haven't found any archaeological evidence for Moses does not prove he didn't exist. For years archaeologists thought David never existed until one day they found something (forget what it was) that said something about King David. Such has been the case for countless other historical points in the Bible.

Edit 2: Hey, I just found an article about Moses.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Pico said:
Well, what about Jesus? The New Testament contains the best documented texts ever written. There are thousands of sources to back up the Gospels.
Click to expand...
Golly day Pico... Just when I was suggesting that Tao back off brash statements...

I'd love to see thousands of concurrent non-biblical references to back up the Gospels.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Tao_Equus said:
Show me one copy of Genesis that is written, printed or published by anyone other than man.
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(2 Peter 1:21) For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit............... the first ever prophecy in the bible is in the book of Genesis .......... Genesis 3;15 and this prophecy runs through the whole of the bible from Genesis to revelation . and now in these last days we are well along into bible prophecy, and the understanding about this and other prophecies is abundant indeed . and the revealing goes on ,Daniel 12;4 litening to the channel that Jesus is revealing many things to brings understanding indeed Matthew 24;45-47 :)
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

What I set out to say I repeat now for clarity. The story of Adam and Eve and the Tree of Life have a much older history than the Old Testament. The origins of the story being many the myths probably had many meanings. In the Old Testament the story is used to infer Original Sin on man. Such a notion is an important psychological device. Remove it and the Church loses it authority to guide us to salvation from our sinful state. Remove it and God is not a cruel, spiteful creature who leaves razors lying around for his children to play with. Lose it and we are not sinners but children free to grow and learn without handicap. Free to abandon doctrine and to live by our hearts.

As long as we view any holy book as literal and deny that any person/group doctored the text to suit its needs, provided interpretations that were biased to leading people down a certain thought path, we are being naive. We do not need to be evil sinners from the start and I suggest we are not.

Tao
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Pico said:
Edit 2: Hey, I just found an article about Moses.
Click to expand...

Pico,

If you want to know the truth I suggest you look for independent sources. A site that calls itself "believing in Genesis" is hardly impartial. Reading the article I, without any cross references at all, found several bits that were patently inaccurate, such as dating of the pyramids. The wording is loaded with unsupported references to "most" or "many" or "all" without any citing of who these most many or all are. Classic BS technique for those that have no evidence but want it to sound like they do.

Pico this board is not the place to continue discussing with me. I am not a Christian. If you really want to discuss origins with me and others I suggest we start a new thread in another area.

Regards

Tao
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

wil said:
I'd love to see thousands of concurrent non-biblical references to back up the Gospels.
Click to expand...

I would really like to all the Gospels that were not included in the Bible. I think they would be a fascinating read.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

flowperson said:
Lots to read here...enjoy yourself !

flow....:)
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Salaam Flow

Oh WOWEE I never knew that was there, thank you so much, you are such a gem. Metaphoric hug. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D I am such a happy bunny.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Muslimwoman said:
Salaam Flow

Oh WOWEE I never knew that was there, thank you so much, you are such a gem. Metaphoric hug. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D I am such a happy bunny.
Click to expand...

I like the Apocalypse of Peter. At the end Jesus tells Peter a BIG secret that (obviously) Peter spills the beans about. One of the reason it wasn't included in the Bible is for the same reason Jesus told Peter not to tell anyone.

One thing a leader at my Church informed me of was that the Books of the New Testament were already being circulated and used by the early church long before the entire Bible was compiled (I think as early as the 1st century). And that the Apocrypha is a bunch of writings that had some really good stuff in there, but was not concluded to be 100% divinely inspired like the biblical canon.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Pico said:
One thing a leader at my Church informed me of was that the Books of the New Testament were already being circulated and used by the early church long before the entire Bible was compiled (I think as early as the 1st century). And that the Apocrypha is a bunch of writings that had some really good stuff in there, but was not concluded to be 100% divinely inspired like the biblical canon.
Click to expand...

Hi Pico

I would like to ask what may seem a rude question but I am genuinely interested. I understand that the 4 Gospels included in the Bible were written by 4 of the Disciples of Jesus (pbuh) and were simply companions of Jesus(pbuh) telling his story. May I then ask what makes you believe they are Divinely inspired?

MW
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Muslimwoman said:
Hi Pico

I would like to ask what may seem a rude question but I am genuinely interested. I understand that the 4 Gospels included in the Bible were written by 4 of the Disciples of Jesus (pbuh) and were simply companions of Jesus(pbuh) telling his story. May I then ask what makes you believe they are Divinely inspired?

MW
Click to expand...

Well all 4 of them are not written by Jesus' disciples. John, and Matthew were his disciples. Luke, however was an historian, and he says at the beginning of the book of Luke that he is writing to his friend Theophilus and that he has carefully investigated the accounts from Jesus' disciples and other eyewitnesses from the beginning so that he may be reassured of what he was taught. Eyewitness accounts are very compelling in a court of law. The sequel to the book of Luke is the book of Acts (short for Acts of the Apostles), also written by Luke, which chronicles the formation of the early church. The book of Mark I've read was written by Mark, who was a penman for the apostle Peter.

As for how they were divinely inspired I do not know the criteria that was used for the early church to decide what was divinely inspired. But what I do know is that the people back then had a much closer relationship with Jesus and God through the Holy Spirit than many people do now (because remember, many of them were eye witnesses to Jesus after all). I know this because of their ability to perform miracles, prophecy, and speak in tounges (among many other spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit) which the power to do that is given to us by the Holy Spirit. I have actually heard of accounts of people in prayer groups who suddenly start speaking in tounges (which would probably freak me out if i were there lol).

Granted this information about the people's intimacy with God, I do not doubt that they would be able to tell which were 100% divinely inspired, and I'm sure the Holy Spirit (and God) would let them know.
 
Re: Jehovah witnesses.

Pico said:
I have actually heard of accounts of people in prayer groups who suddenly start speaking in tounges (which would probably freak me out if i were there lol).
Click to expand...

Thank you for the explanation Pico. I think after I had finished freaking out I would strongly suggest they went and had a nice cup of tea and a lie down (the British answer to everything).

Pico said:
and I'm sure the Holy Spirit (and God) would let them know.
Click to expand...

May I ask you about this. You clearly see the Holy Spirit and G-d as seperate beings, so may I ask who/what the Holy Spirit is for you (I know it's a bit daft to ask you to define the Divine but I think I know what I mean). What relationship does the Holy Spirit have with G-d?

Salaam
 
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