What isn't spiritual?

well, to me, going to the toilet is spiritual. everytime i go, i always thank God for letting me expunge myself. Lord knows that if He wanted to, He would make me get backed up and eventually get colon cancer or something worst! anyways, here's to Dad Himself, thank you very much for your mercy.
 
Leo,

that's the general gist of the Hebrew blessing too. It goes a little further. I mean you have to figure, in any given moment, your body is working as it needs to so that you can live and function in the world. We have no reason to question that it should suddenly stop working, but it works. Those pathways for the circulation of vital fluids or waste stay open and the stuff that should flow keeps flowing. The boundaries that separate say, stomach acid from the rest of our internal organs stay closed. It's like in every moment we're blessed with the gift of life.

-- Dauer
 
dauer,
that's the general gist of the Hebrew blessing too.
that's cool to know. thanks. would you by any chance know the exact wording for this blessing? or perhaps point me the way to find it? just curious to know. unless you are messing with me... which just occured to me.

on another note:

dauer:
My own views are more in agreement with yours than with the example that I gave.

juantoo3
The most heinous criminal is still spiritual...it may be an evil spirit, but a spirit nonetheless.

as much as i hate agreeing with you guys on this, i do. even the bad stuff can be attributed to either God letting it happen or He Himself creating it. i know that bashing a babies skull in is wrong or maybe it isn't in God's Eyes because it was supposed to happen? is this more or less what you guys are trying to get at? that even the bad stuff is God's will taking effect?
 
is what one leaves in the toliet spiritual? or is it just the act that makes one spiritual?
I wonder what happens when someone gets constipated for days? Is that bad spiritual?

If everything is viewed as spiritual does that mean that doo doo is spiritual too? Is the toilet paper & wiping spiritual?

Would swimming in sewage be spiritual? or is that bad spiritual & would it have to be clean water to be good spiritual?

I dont view H20 as spiritual, baptisms, grooming, bathing or anything like that- but maybe some people do.

Does that mean when someone is healthy & all organs work properly they are good spiritual & when someone is unhealthy with failing organs they are evil spirtual?

Just looking for some consistency when viewing physical things & the material world a spiritual.
 
The most heinous criminal is still spiritual...it may be an evil spirit, but a spirit nonetheless.
The Neo-Platonists would say that The Good is something that flows from The One. It is seen as a byproduct of the transcendental forms that comprise The Beautiful. Our notions of virtue and righteousness may be largly reducible to transparency to this transcendent Good. And what we consider right action may just be varying degrees of approximation to a pure expression of harmony with The Good.

By contrast, sin and evil would be active resistance to The Good or a passive failure to incorporate what it means into action.

From this perspective, there would be no such thing as evil spirits; there are only, imperfect representations of the Good, flawed understandings of how to access it, and misguided, unskillful attempts to translate it into immediate applications.

From a classic dualistic view of Spirit and Nature, the Spirit is not subject to defilement by anything that happens to an empirical self within the evolutionary realm that is the World of Unfolding. Which reminds me: I see "spiritual" as anything that pertains to the Ultimately Transcendent One, which some people (me included) call G-d.
 
That's pretty interesting. On first blush, it kind of articulates what I believe. I tend to talk with a language that might be confusing about this- differentiating between spirit and Spirit. Spirit with a little "s" being the energetic stuff that is the thought-forms of God, but not necessarily recognizing their oneness with God. A "spirit" being a single incidence of this thought-form (whether or not it inhabits a body). And Spirit being the Spirit that is of God- the Holy Spirit- with which we unite if we so recognize and embrace it. I tend to think of the spiritual as practices and beliefs that help someone recognize, connect to, embrace, and be transformed by the Spirit (or the One, as you put it).

The other stuff is not un-spiritual in the sense of having nothing to do with spirit. It is more like it is just unfocused or wrongly focused, leading away from rather than toward God, and so delaying one's progress toward perfection.
 
Leo,

I'm not sure if it's available online or not. This is an English translation of it taken from the Kol Haneshamah siddur. It follows the reconstructionist practice of subbing relevant titles in for the tetragrammaton rather than just using Lord every time, so if there's a word all in caps that's just a reference to the tetragrammaton.

"Blessed are you, THE ARCHITECT, our God, sovereign of all worlds, who shaped the human being with wisdom, making for us all the openings and vessels of the body. It is revealed and known before your Throne of Glory that if one of these passage-ways be open when it should be closed, or blocked up when it should be free, one could not stay alive or stand before you. Blessed are you, MIRACULOUS, the wondrous healer of all flesh."

Kol Haneshamah daily prayer book p.20.

So let it not be said liturgy can't have a sense of humor. xD

as much as i hate agreeing with you guys on this, i do. even the bad stuff can be attributed to either God letting it happen or He Himself creating it. i know that bashing a babies skull in is wrong or maybe it isn't in God's Eyes because it was supposed to happen? is this more or less what you guys are trying to get at? that even the bad stuff is God's will taking effect?

I think the word spiritual really has multiple definitions and that can confuse things. for example, I'd agree with p_o_o that on the one hand spirituality is "a matter of perspective or awareness. When one is in a spiritual state of being, everything is spiritual. If one is entirely not, nothing is. In between are all sorts of shades of gray." At the same time I think the word can also be applied to mean that "to me spirit is an underlying energetic component of life...all life. Good life, bad life, beautiful life, ugly life, animal life, vegetable life, mineral life, all life is spiritual. " as Juan said. I would go further and say all of existence is spiritual including the inanimate.

To me both of those definitions are equally valid but get bunched up together with the same word. That creates difficulty when trying to communicate. I also would agree with you on some level that things happen for a reason and that may tie into spirituality definition B. A problem arises when A and B are muddled together. According to B, the Holocaust was spiritual not in and of itself but because it is a part of existence. It is not then independently spiritual. According to A a witness is necessary to see something as spiritual and, as I would read it, an act is only going to be spiritual for those who witness it as spiritual. If there are 20 people running across a bridge and for 15 it's spiritual, that doesn't mean it's spiritual for the other 5. Spirituality becomes a way of seeing the world where the mundane is miraculous.

There's a third definition that ties it together with right and wrong that I would say becomes is particularly at odds with my holocaust example. I tend not to use this definition because I think someone can easily fit definition A while doing something that most people would view as wrong either because they're crazy or because they've managed to get around basic ethical principles by the extrapolation of other principles. An example of that is some of the Buddhist ideas about warfare and the spiritual way to kill that come up around I think it was WWII.

Bandit,

is what one leaves in the toliet spiritual? or is it just the act that makes one spiritual?

From out perspective as finite creatures who perceive a multiplicity of existence, feces seems dirty. But to G!d what's the big difference between poop and chocolate? I guess it depends largely on one's definition of G!d.

If everything is viewed as spiritual does that mean that doo doo is spiritual too? Is the toilet paper & wiping spiritual?

Let's say, going with definition A above, that I take a crap and wipe. As I'm doing that I remain fully present to taking a crap and wiping. I cultivate within me a sense of gratitude that my body's functioning as it should. Maybe I connect my own feces back to the cycle of life (modern plumbing notwithstanding) in that fecal matter is both its own ecosystem and that which nourishes other life on this planet that exists outside of the ecosystem. Maybe I connect my bowel movement back to the meal I ate some time ago and recognize the way my body is able to take what it needs and let go of what it doesn't need. I think there are probably a lot of ways to connect spiritually to pinching a loaf.

Would swimming in sewage be spiritual? or is that bad spiritual & would it have to be clean water to be good spiritual?

I think the bigger thing is, whether or not it's spiritual, it's not sanitary. I don't think it's a good idea to ignore those basic issues. If everything that exists has some sort of spirituality to it then there's nothing special about sewage that should attract a person to swimming in it for religious reasons. If it's a matter of perspective, why would a person go out of their way to foster a spiritual mindset to swimming in feces? (that's rhetorical. I can certainly think of metaphysical backings for such behavior.)

-- Dauer
 
Have you ever met some Christian Scientists who reject any dualisitc thought? Their god does not know what evil is, nor does it know when someone is sick...the christian science god only sees spiritual & rejects all disease, sin & sickness as being real & is attributed stricty to mortality. It is different from the catholic god & the muslim god where mortals spirits get punished & cursed by the god if they do sins as mortals.

I always saw that dualistic thought as warped but then again so is the non dualistic view as it leaves a very stupid god who does not know the difference. I am also finding this everything material/physical is the same as spiritual to be lacking as well which is ironicly like saying that god is physical & material even though most peoples god is supposed to be a spirit. Maybe some peoples gods are material?

I can see a list a mile long of things that have absolutely nothing to do with spirit or spiritual. I do not see anything carnal, any matter that falls into earth. Though I can see a spirit of corruption in politics & religion, especially in areas where war over oil is invloved but the oil itself is not spirit.

It is not the money that is good or evil, it is the spirit behind how the money is made & handled that makes it viewed as spirtual. Just as the human body will corrupt and go back to the earth, the spirit wont be taking a single atom with it...or will it?
 
Alex.

No not at all. See the post above [the post above] yours, my response to Leo.
 
Does your spirit eat poop or chocolate? Does your spirit poop out anything physical? Mine doesn't.

god probably does not care either way because spirits don't eat physical food to be able to take physical dumps. well, maybe some peoples gods do eat meat & wheat. not sure there.

the only reason we eat physical food is because the physcial body will starve & die without it. We don't eat poop or swim in sewage because it will kill the body but poop or chocolate does not kill or sustain the spirit no matter what you eat physical (yet in this case here it does) I would think something a little more special would feed the spirit (like maybe a god?) but since there seems to be no distinction betwen the two, meat & potatoes will have to feed the spirit? & the spirit & body just have the same bowel movements at the same time.

I could relate to giving thanks for the food & a quality dump for good health as something spiritual but then again wouldn't we also give thanks even when we suffer in pain? ( I have been through enourmous physical pain in the last year & it is not so easy as one might think)

I suppose you could even feed the body gasoline & the spirit would do well with that. A fuel source is a fuel source:D & spirit & gasoline are the same thing.
Now that makes perfect sense:confused:.

Now dont get me wrong here, I know there are some people who believe the body & the spirit are the same thing & when the jesus rapture theory comes all the bodies come floating out from 6 feet under dirt & the body goes floating in the air into outer space to meet the jesus body. hmmmm

From here I would just be asking the same questions so I shall leave the discussion for my daily ritualistic pooping session & spiritual toilet time. I become extremely spiritual when diarrhea comes & my toilet paper budget increases just like an expensive spiritual milkshake. Praise the Lord.

a woman needed water (& it wasn't from the bathroom or kitchen) & there is a river that never shall run dry (that aint the Mississippi river) & when she drinks of it she will never thirst again.:)
 
as near as i can fathom, most folks are referring to a mental state when they mean the term spiritual.

metta,

~v
 
Bandit,

the only reason we eat physical food is because the physcial body will starve & die without it. We don't eat poop or swim in sewage because it will kill the body but poop or chocolate does not kill or sustain the spirit no matter what you eat physical

I don't think anyone suggested that eating chocolate or feces would provide spiritual sustenance. I was speaking to the human perception of each and the way in which that perception can be manipulated to make it spiritual according to definition A of my earlier post. This does not require a change in action, just a change in one's intention.

I could relate to giving thanks for the food & a quality dump for good health as something spiritual but then again wouldn't we also give thanks even when we suffer in pain? ( I have been through enourmous physical pain in the last year & it is not so easy as one might think)

According to teachings in some traditions, including mine, G!d should be praised for the good as well as the bad.

I suppose you could even feed the body gasoline & the spirit would do well with that. A fuel source is a fuel source & spirit & gasoline are the same thing.
Now that makes perfect sense.

You're relying on definition B for your example. Definition B does not consider the qualities of matter which is a separate issue.

From here I would just be asking the same questions so I shall leave the discussion for my daily ritualistic pooping session & spiritual toilet time. I become extremely spiritual when diarrhea comes & my toilet paper budget increases just like an expensive spiritual milkshake. Praise the Lord.

I do not believe you, but I think that with the right intention you could make your time on the toilet a spiritual experience.

-- Dauer
 
According to teachings in some traditions, including mine, G!d should be praised for the good as well as the bad.

I agree. But I also admit this is tremendously difficult sometimes. I have a chronic stress-related condition that causes me immense pain every so often. It's hard to remember to be grateful when I feel like that. Enough pain and I turn into a little animal- just so in the moment, so focused on my body and just stopping it from hurting.

However, after the pain subsides and I ponder these things, I find that there is a message there. The pain connects me to some deep animal part of us that is usually shoved so far in the background, I forget about it. The part of us that just *is*. No thought, no future, no past, no nothing. Just the moment. If I could capture that when I am not in a lot of pain, that would be really something. I mean, I have my moments, but for the most part, I'm just not with it spiritually enough to have long periods of now-ness except when in pain. Maybe that's part of the gift God's giving me by allowing it to happen. Or maybe it's just the way life goes- the chips fall where they may and sometimes it kind of sucks, but at least we can lean on God and cry out to Him for strength to carry on.

I think in all moments of bad-ness, it's really hard for people to be thankful. Yet, it is also these moments that bring out the best in people. This is typically when people remember the worth of life and basic stuff (health, shelter, water, food). This is when people support each other. The best of humanity tends to come out in disasters and epidemics and suffering. It's the old saying "There are no atheists in foxholes." Suddenly, we expand beyond our worries about paying the bills, advancing our career, planning the next vacation. We're really present for ourselves and each other... we really open up to God.

Unpleasant as it is, there is a lot of good that arises from suffering. I don't know if that's by God's design, or God is just the master of making lemonade from lemons. Maybe a bit of both, given our free will.
 
i know that bashing a babies skull in is wrong or maybe it isn't in God's Eyes because it was supposed to happen? is this more or less what you guys are trying to get at? that even the bad stuff is God's will taking effect?

Ummm, not quite. At least, that wasn't my intended meaning.

There is a great deal of mystery still to me...just how "personal" G-d is, and whether or not He or His agents acting on His behalf can in fact sway the courses set in motion. A lot hinges on the answers to questions such as these.

Having said that, I am of the opinion that "spirit" can be either good or bad, but that it is the will of the individual that determines whether that spirit is good or bad. In some circumstances, there may be a cultural conflict that causes one individual to interpret certain actions as good where his neighbor might interpret the same actions as bad...this is an ambiguous territory where it is difficult to really say, not knowing the mind of G-d or the inclination of Karma.

Now, where there is a pretty clear cut distinction...as you pointed to with the example of bashing babies' heads...what turns a spirit "evil" is the will of the person. G-d didn't create evil *as such,* what He created *became* evil, what He created *chose* to be evil. That is part of the awesome responsibility of free will. Yes, we *can* will ourselves to power, fortune and fame at the expense of others (it is an option available to us; not necessarily the best or most appropriate option)...but are we prepared to accept the cost when it comes time to settle up the bill?

In short, I do see certain fallacies with the "evil is of G-d too" train of thought. If such were so, then there is no morality and no need to behave ethically, other than secular, social and cultural conditioning. In other words, we have all been duped for millenia. The whole concept of *G-d* then becomes a moot point.
 
Re: What isn't spiritual?/Everything is Spiritual

Bandit,






According to teachings in some traditions, including mine, G!d should be praised for the good as well as the bad.



-- Dauer

But you have a different god than I do.

You asked what is not spiritual. I answered the question.
 
Unpleasant as it is, there is a lot of good that arises from suffering. I don't know if that's by God's design, or God is just the master of making lemonade from lemons. Maybe a bit of both, given our free will.

Only people who suffer their whole lives will never know the difference. They will never know that it takes lemons & sugar & that it takes rain & sun to make a rainbow...all they will know is physical suffering.

I am not so much of the free will doctrine any more, but perhaps a limited amount of freewill within something sovereign.
 
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