What isn't spiritual?

dauer said:
Bandit,
A few good questions I think that raises is, what makes an action spiritual? What makes an action not spiritual? Why do we make an association between certain action and either spirituality or non-spirituality? Is spirituality external, internal or a combination of the two?





-- Dauer
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I found it easier to look at by dropping the uality for a moment.

If one is to do it by comparing to physical actions, then the question I would have is, if your body can get sick, can your spirit get sick? If shot in the heart & your body dies does that mean your spirit dies?


If you eat a well balanced meal to keep your body healthy, then how do those physical nutrients keep the spirit healthy? IF you eat all ham fat & your body gets fat, does that mean your spirit gets fat?

I don't equate or compare physical to spiritual. Though they do have some similarities and influence over each other. If I had to do it that way then I would place positives, negatives & neutrals on those actions, which is probably what most people do. A lot of people place physical actions (like going to church or giving firstfruits) on what makes them spiritual & if you murder than you are not spiritual... perhaps this is how judges see intent & motive of those actions?

I see it as two distinct & separate things. I can make contrast between the two (flesh & spirit) & include how they effect each other to expound something. I do not compare them to each other and do not put them on the same level as the same thing.
 
seattlegal said:
Hmm, interesting. We do have spaces dedicated for that purpose {not necessarily sacred--especially if you have kids,} and some people can become rather ritualistic about it...

I suppose some people might consider the purging of the physical to be a spiritual process. :eek:
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OMG-LOL!

That explains the gold pot to pee in:D & the gold bricks they lay. The more gold ones pot is made of, the more spiritual one will be.
 
Everything is spiritual. Every-thing initiaiting from no-thing is a combination of consciouness and mechanical laws. When phenomena appears to be under less laws of reaction, we tend to call it spiritual. However we call fantasy spiritual also. That is why I use the word consciousness rather than spiritual because consciousness without contents of consciousness is spirit. Consciousness and fantasy are of different qualities and fantasy appears in the absence of conscionsess. I prefer the word consciouosness since it cannot be confused with imagination where in these times imagination and spirituality are often seen as the same.
 
dauer said:
See above. I figure enough time is spent talking about what is spiritual or sacred or holy or divine. So question for discussion: What isn't spiritual?

-- Dauer
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Dauer,

The fact that you have formed this question speaks volumes of the depth of your understanding.

Gassho
 
Everything is spiritual.
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Does everything include money & wealth?

If so, does that mean the more wealth one owns the more spiritual they are?

and in comparison the man with little or no money would mean they are less spiritual?

Another question for discussion.
 
Bandit said:
Does everything include money & wealth?

If so, does that mean the more wealth one owns the more spiritual they are?

and in comparison the man with little or no money would mean they are less spiritual?

Another question for discussion.
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I'm referring to objective materiality. All materiality has a spiritual part. You are referring to subjective invented concepts. Material wealth as we know it is a subjective concept related to society so cannot be said to be spiritual.

You do bring up an interesting idea in that there really are no esoteric ideas. There is the process of esoteric thinking that is related to consciousness itself. Certain ideas have the ability to promote esoteric thought and pondering in contrast to our usual associative or dual thought process.
 
That would make a good place to start. List the things associated with wealth/materialism.


1. Wealth

a)houses
b)vehicles
c)clothes
d)jewelry
e)bank accounts
f)land
g)oil


2.Fame


What about fame? Does fame make people spiritual? The more famous you are the more spiritual you are while the people who have no fame are less spiritual?
What is associated with fame?
 
I remember the last time this came up there were people claiming that drugs & getting high makes them spiritual.

Do drugs make people get more spiritual? & without the drug of choice while doing a drug not as prefered, would one not be as spiritual?
For example meth is prefered over crack, so meth makes that person more spiritual because it is prefered.

Does that go for any & all drugs or just certain ones?
 
My questions about any substance would be:

A) Does it increase the person's spiritual awareness?

B) How does it effect the way the person acts in the world? Does it make them a better person?

If it increases their sense of the Divine but doesn't help them to be a better person, I think that's okay. If it has a negative impact on their actions in the world I think it's probably not such a good thing. I think there's probably a good reason that so many traditions have seen it worthwhile to use mind-altering substances as sacrament be it salvia or alcohol or peyote or ahayuasca and so on.

-- Dauer
 
Bandit, defining fame and drugs as aspects of spirituality is additional proof to me that spirituality has become synonymous with imagination so has no more objective meaning.

At one time it was understood that concern for fame was indulging in the sin of vanity and vanity is the quest to have image take the place of reality including the spiritual.

At one times certain drugs could give indications of possible evolutionary conscious states but being as we are, everything is taken in excess so drugs make us slaves to imagination at the expense of conscious/spiritual reality appropriate for our quality of being.

Being that the conception of spirituality has lost its meaning to imagination, it is no wonder how easily the sacred becomes engulfed by the secular rendering it objectively meaningless in society.
 
Namaste Nick_A,

thank you for the post.

Nick_A said:
Everything is spiritual.
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but that doesn't really say much unless you are meaning to say that the constituent parts of matter are spiritual but then you may as well simply call them matter.

Every-thing initiaiting from no-thing is a combination of consciouness and mechanical laws.
Click to expand...

all physical phenomena have arising from physical things, matter and energy, physical constituent parts of matter haven't arisen from human consciousness indeed, an argument can be made that human consciousness is an epiphenomena of matter; that matter has given rise to human consciousness and not the other way around.

When phenomena appears to be under less laws of reaction, we tend to call it spiritual.
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i'm not sure what you are saying here.. what are the "laws of reaction"? and why would would call matter which is effected less by these laws spiritual?

However we call fantasy spiritual also.
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most beings that i have spoken to regarding fantasy do not consider it to be spirituality irrespective of how they have defined spirituality. i'll admit i've not met anyone that has defined spirituality as material; so as fantasy is a product of consciousness and consciousness arises from matter, fantasy is spiritual, which is how i understand you arrive at that conclusion. is that a fair summation?

That is why I use the word consciousness rather than spiritual because consciousness without contents of consciousness is spirit.
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that doesn't seem to be consistent with how i understand your definition. consciousness, per se, would be spiritual simply due to it's having arisen from matter. consciousness devoid of content would still be consciousness just as the ocean without fish is still the ocean.

Consciousness and fantasy are of different qualities and fantasy appears in the absence of conscionsess.
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that is not my experience with fantasy. in fact i would say the precise opposite, that fantasy only appears in the presence of consciousness. if this were not so we'd have to ascribe some mechanism by which a boulder would be able to have fantasies. no being that i know asserts such seriously.

in any event, if matter is spiritual there really isn't any value in adding the term spiritual to it, matter is matter is matter. most beings, however, assert that spiritual is something other than matter, something which is intersubjectively real but subjectively experienced.

metta,

~v
 
Hi Vajradhara

I don't know your beliefs so am not sure if your are presenting alternatives or what you do believe. But since we may be coming from different perspectives, it is always useful to compare them.

but that doesn't really say much unless you are meaning to say that the constituent parts of matter are spiritual but then you may as well simply call them matter.
in any event, if matter is spiritual there really isn't any value in adding the term spiritual to it, matter is matter is matter. most beings, however, assert that spiritual is something other than matter, something which is intersubjectively real but subjectively experienced.
Click to expand...

Esoteric Christianity is related to the Hermetic Traditions and as such recognizes both cosmology or levels of reality, one within the other as well as different vibratory frequencies in matter.


The building blocks of matter are known as Ether and the densities of Ether create matter we know initially as involution or the slowing of vibrations in matter. Vibrations is a topic of its own so rather than get into it here, if you are interested, this brief article explains a great deal.

The Kybalion

all physical phenomena have arising from physical things, matter and energy, physical constituent parts of matter haven't arisen from human consciousness indeed, an argument can be made that human consciousness is an epiphenomena of matter; that matter has given rise to human consciousness and not the other way around.
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The cosmology I study is related to Plato's world of forms and Kant's description of the relationship between noumena and phenomena. So from my perspective noumena lawfully produces phenomena rather than phenomena producing noumena. Human conscious evolution follows the way that leads to noumena or the world of forms sometimes called the "good."

i'm not sure what you are saying here.. what are the "laws of reaction"? and why would would call matter which is effected less by these laws spiritual?
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Universal laws that sustain cosmology and creation is another topic in itself. Normally we examine the universe through the dualistic process of science. It is based on comparisons and measurements accomplished through several means such as the axiom of the EXCLUDED middle

Law of excluded middle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The universe is really structured on the Law of the INCLUDED middle and science is now beginning to become aware of it. So getting into the laws is not so easy and requires becoming open to a new direction of thought.

most beings that i have spoken to regarding fantasy do not consider it to be spirituality irrespective of how they have defined spirituality. i'll admit i've not met anyone that has defined spirituality as material; so as fantasy is a product of consciousness and consciousness arises from matter, fantasy is spiritual, which is how i understand you arrive at that conclusion. is that a fair summation?
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Daniel Dennet and his assertions on consciousness are becoming fashionable but my studies have revealed the opposite.

Where those like Dennet believe that everything begins EVOLVING from nothing and finally producing consciousness, I believe the opposite. I believe that the process of the slowing of vibrations that produces fractions of higher wholes is actually INVOLUTION or unity into diversity. From this point of view creation begins with no-thing, pure conscious potential which is the opposite of nothing. While no-thing is pure conscious potential, and the the most fine density of matter and for us, a "void", nothing is the complete absence of potential and incapable of supporting evolution.

I hope that in the future the common sense understanding that evolution as half of the complimentary flows of being within a cosmological structure of different vibratory frequencies known as involution and evolution will become accepted by the majority and the "Breath of Brahma will be respected for what it is.

that doesn't seem to be consistent with how i understand your definition. consciousness, per se, would be spiritual simply due to it's having arisen from matter. consciousness devoid of content would still be consciousness just as the ocean without fish is still the ocean.
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Since consciousness begins at no-thing or pure potential, all things are expressions of lesser degrees of consciousness within a cosmological structure of levels of reality. Lesser consciousness is compensated for by increasing mechanical laws sustaining creation.


that is not my experience with fantasy. in fact i would say the precise opposite, that fantasy only appears in the presence of consciousness. if this were not so we'd have to ascribe some mechanism by which a boulder would be able to have fantasies. no being that i know asserts such seriously.
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From my perspective God as pure conscious potential has no need for fantasy. If man has the possibility for conscious evolution or evolving closer to Man's objective meaning and purpose, it requires the experience of the reality of the human condition rather than fantasy. But this is really insulting and repulsive which is why it is avoided except by a small minority. As usual Simone Weil lays it on the line without feel good frills:

"We must prefer real hell to an imaginary paradise." Simone Weil
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If one really has the need of the heart that can connect to the objective "good," it requires the raw experience of what denies it.


 
There's a hebrew blessing for after using the toilet. It mentions G!d on His throne. xD
 
Nick_A said:
Bandit, defining fame and drugs as aspects of spirituality is additional proof to me that spirituality has become synonymous with imagination so has no more objective meaning.

At one time it was understood that concern for fame was indulging in the sin of vanity and vanity is the quest to have image take the place of reality including the spiritual.

At one times certain drugs could give indications of possible evolutionary conscious states but being as we are, everything is taken in excess so drugs make us slaves to imagination at the expense of conscious/spiritual reality appropriate for our quality of being.

Being that the conception of spirituality has lost its meaning to imagination, it is no wonder how easily the sacred becomes engulfed by the secular rendering it objectively meaningless in society.
Click to expand...

We are in basic agreement. I am sure that all religion has an element of imagination or magic with little fairies living in the yard & things like that.


I also liked your analogy of being IN when compared to father & son while using the log in the pond & the pond(water) in the log. Both maintain their own identity yet are inseperable when being IN, by or through.

The only difference we might have is I see spirit as more than just mind though including the mind. The spirit can travel & detatch itself & actually move from the place it was to another place. Some might call it telepathic, Near Death, or an array of words & definitions.
I dont rely on anything material to get to a spiritual place or state of mind which is probably unique as most people seem to need a ceremony or order of service to get off the gorund. I don't need other people to do it either, though sometimes that is nice to reflect & bounce off of others in the same room.

I have discovered that each spirit has a substance, though it cannot be measured in terms of weight, volume, time or girdth. A vapor, mist-like, substance, able to pass through the material world, able to move in & out & at speeds that cannot be measured... though not always at will, it can be done.

One can send thoughts in the material world, kind of like sending your voice over the telephone or writing it in a paper or manifesting oneself in love through, in & by sending flowers, this does not make the one (mind/spirit) manifesting itself the actual flowers.



Nick_A said:
Esoteric Christianity is related to the Hermetic Traditions and as such recognizes both cosmology or levels of reality, one within the other as well as different vibratory frequencies in matter.


The building blocks of matter are known as Ether and the densities of Ether create matter we know initially as involution or the slowing of vibrations in matter. Vibrations is a topic of its own so rather than get into it here, if you are interested, this brief article explains a great deal.
Click to expand...

Probably the best & most heartwarming analogy would be knowing someones voice. Then you do not hear them speak for 25 years. At last you hear that persons voice in a different location or perhaps the location you always knew the voice & without actually seeing the face, you know who the person is by the words spoken, the dialect, the tone, and a particular sound, frequency & vibration.
When sonmeone says, "It is good to hear your voice." That is a sign of recogintion...I know you from hearing you & I remember your voice from 25 years ago.

So in a nutshell, the mind & spirit are in essence the same thing & though invisible to the human eye- one spirit CAN see another spirit. it has many parts & many ways to manifest itself, not excluding that it can literally move faster than the speed of light passing through mass & stone and mass passing through spirit (as if it were the same thing though it is not).

Sprits/Souls can also merge with each other & become one (thus your log & water analogy). Though this appears to be within limited reach while still bound to mass & appears to be more or less restircted to be during & after a time of transition. I am sure it can be practiced but have found no real appeal or need to apply myself, as they seem to come to me before I have a need to go to them which makes me curious while being comforted.

Thus, I conclude that even though spirit does yield some type of unmeasurable substance, it is in a different realm of that which can be easily viewed and measured such as body mass, gas, liquid or physical time travels.

Can Spirit be stopped? the same way a penny can be stopped from rolling?

When someone says I do this, this & this when I go to church & that makes me spritual...I put money in the offering plate & drove the church bus- it made me feel spiritual (things like that), -to me that is just the Joel Olsteen, pass out bibles type of feel good religion but no real change takes place. We can be stirred within & the stirring feels good, but that does not mean a spiritual change happens.

Or someone is searching how to enter a spiritual realm, for whatever reason they have no clue where I am coming from. If they have not been there yet then I would certainly not try to explain how to do it as it can only be discovered when that person is in tune with the spirit realm & (this may be where we disagree) NOTHING material needs to be involved:) . The wheel starts turning at that precise moment. Unfortunately it cannot be forced to happen but it can be practiced if one chooses after entering the first time & there is more than one way to enter.
I suppose it could happen & does happen at a time when people are not expecting such a jolt, thus leaving them curious for a long time as to what they really experienced, until:) it happens again.

so there does have to be some kind of search I would think though not everyone is going to like what they find & what we find will not always be desirable...but to try & make something happen again & again is where I get off the boat....because nice things just happen without trying to make it happen:)

Of course these are only tiny little examples & not limited to these alone. It would become a chore & a bit too complicated to explain or discuss depth in an environment like this.

I am sure there are spiritual realms beyond human comprehension waiting to be discovered.
 
dauer said:
Depending on how one uses the word spiritual, quite easily. If a person automatically associates spiritual with what they see as good in the world and not-spiritual with what they see as evil in the world then the discussion will go there for them.
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Why should it go there for them?

Would it not be "good" spirit and "evil" spirit?

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but so far I think I agree with Vajra...it depends what you mean by "spirit."
 
What I am seeing in general seems to me an equating of the term "spiritual" with "morality" or "ethics." Good *behavior* as somehow being spiritual, while un-good behavior is not.

Not saying I am right or wrong in this, it certainly has opened my eyes, because to me spirit is an underlying energetic component of life...all life. Good life, bad life, beautiful life, ugly life, animal life, vegetable life, mineral life, all life is spiritual. In that sense, all is spiritual, or so it seems to me.

The most heinous criminal is still spiritual...it may be an evil spirit, but a spirit nonetheless.
 
juan,

Why should it go there for them?
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I was responding to Netti who suggested it would necessarily go in that direction. The emphasis in my response is on the fact that it won't happen in all cases. I was giving an example of where it would, if for a person sees spiritual as synonymous with good and not-spiritual as synonymous with bad or evil. That is not how I see spirituality personally. My own views are more in agreement with yours than with the example that I gave.

-- Dauer
 
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